Shaman warriors

[Krafkar]

Hail

I will to learn Shamanism (Seidr (http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/seidr.html)) to learn more about the techniques and martial arts that Heimdall (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/heimdall.html)taught me at my dreams. The Norse God/dness visits me at my dreams, but I always forget what does they said and taught me when I wake up.

Also, I will to learn Berserkergang. (http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/berserk.htm) I am training myself for learning this martial art, I need to contact my inner animal to do so. Meditation is a strong tool for this martial art.

The God/dness usually calls me in my dreams to teach me something new, but my dream concentration is poor. If i was able to contact them by Shamaninc travels, it would be a better way to understand what they want from me.

I have talked to several Berserkers and they said me that is common that one person has an spirit guide that trains him, Heimdall is my guide. So, by Shamanism i would be able to call him and other beings to aid me in my seek of knowledge and my training.

But, does Seidr can help me with this?

Or anyone knows any method to learn a more proper way of shamanism for a warrior?

[m1thr0s]

Whenever possible, try to provide us information links please Krafkar...it benefits everyone to do so, yourself included. Bear in mind that most people will not know who or what you are talking about unless you help them to so do. Also bear in mind that for every one person who becomes a member here we may have many hundreds who only scan and read...so your own levels of understanding have the possibility of impacting people far beyond this forum alone. It also helps to keep one honest taking the time to double-check one's own foregone conclusions on-the-fly...

No criticism...just helpful hints (hopefully). There are more people interested in this stuff than you may think but it's oblique and bombed to shit with misinformation...
Much work to be done in this respect. I come from a Shamanic impulse myself at origins so I understand the whole warrior thing at the spiritual level.
One has to follow through on every little thing since the principle of self-responsibility demands it and ultimately every human failure has its roots in ignorance.
So the warrior's path is actually very clear...it's the adjusting to this whole mode of battle that takes some getting used to I think.
Not what they taught us in school, that's for sure...

m1

[AfterViewer]

Deleted post . YouTube vid of some nunchaku Dude that was supposed to be a Beseckergang vid. Save it for your Bruce Lee impersonation!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqVB7MMwDxw)

[AfterViewer]

AND: http://uppsalawayland.tripod.com/index.html

[Talkingfox]

OK..I really don't think that Seidr practices and those of Barsark are all that compatible.
As a matter of fact Seidr was often looked down upon by warrior types as less than manly.

And may I ask a question here...just why do you want to become a berseker anyway?

That particular mode of battle isn't well suited to modern times/ applications at all, IMO.

If it were me, which it obviously isn't, and I received this info from Heimdal, rather than say, Odin or Freya, I'd be taking that as a cue for serious observation of the facts.

Not meaning to sound critical here.....just maybe calling for some critical thought processes and an ounce of practicality ....a truly Nordic trait, practicality.

[Krafkar]

There are more people interested in this stuff than you may think but it's oblique and bombed to shit with misinformation...Most of the information you can find out in Internet is unreliable. There are a lot of New Age people that writes silly stuff to gain some profit or even they don't know what are they talking about. Common sense is the best tool for researching and don't be a victim of a fraud. As the video of the dude with the nunchaku, that claims to be a Berseker. The most common term for an Asian martial art to call a Berserker is "Somafera" (http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/somafera/somafera%20-%20the%20body%20wild.html); they see that the incredible endurance and strength of berserkergang comes from inner energies as chackras etc etc.

About the Uppsalawayland site, i meet the owner over the internet. He is a very wise Berserker that have at last cleared my doubt of Berserkergang. You dont need any drugs or alcohol to achieved, just pure will.

Pain is the most common catalyst for any Berserker, but there are few people that use other emotions as joy, love, etc. You are going to be hug to death! hhahaha

People around the Internet claims that Vikings used fungus, alcohol, drugs to achieve it. But, isnt true. This person have trained drunk and it said that alcohol worse the things. Also, that this kinds of drugs are extremely uncommon in the North lands, is almost imposible to find drugs in the wilds.


OK..I really don't think that Seidr practices and those of Barsark are all that compatible.
As a matter of fact Seidr was often looked down upon by warrior types as less than manly. That why i asked if there is any shamanic practice more suitable for a warrior. I know that Seidr men are often known as "Ergi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergi), they where the shame of the warriors.


And may I ask a question here...just why do you want to become a berseker anyway? I will to become Odinist (http://tinwiki.org/wiki/Odinism), this is a secreat group of warriors that seeks to stop the Ragnarok to come. It is believed that if the last Odinist dies, the end of the World will come.


That particular mode of battle isn't well suited to modern times/ applications at all, IMO. Sorry, but you are wrong friend. Berserkergang is to burst your body at its 100% function, where your eyes are more perceptive, your hearing becomes sharp, your reflexes speed improves. I never mentioned to fight with a Sword against a gun; in any battle whatever weapon you use, the function of your body is a great factor.I have talked to several Berserkers soldiers that are battling in Irak, they tell that their senses improves a lot when they become Berserkers. They are able to shoot at a long distance range with the bare eye, their agility and reflexed are high and they can even hear the bullets coming from far.



If it were me, which it obviously isn't, and I received this info from Heimdal, rather than say, Odin or Freya, I'd be taking that as a cue for serious observation of the facts. The first time Heimdall appeared at my dream, i was calling for Odin is wisdom rather Heimdall teachings. He came by his own to help me at my mission to create a Viking martial art club at my University, but he gave stronger meaning to it. To recruit One harriers, and help them to train. This way stop the Ragnarok, and spread the Nine Noble VIrtues.

Why Heimdall, because he is the father of mankind. He once came to teach humans to saw, woodcraft, saw and more. This explains why he also taught me to woodcraft and saw in my dreams. The most interesting fact, that in my dream i saw his golder teets. I later on researched on him, and found several traits I saw on my dreams that I never knew before. This prove that i didnt made it up in an Lucid dream manipulation, for this you need to know how is it to create it on your dream.

I never reject Heimdall is aid, and i gald that he came even I dont asked for him. We might call the God/dness , but sometimes they can call us. So, isnt certain whom of them would come.


Not meaning to sound critical here.....just maybe calling for some critical thought processes and an ounce of practicality ....a truly Nordic trait, practicality. Doubt is a strong weapon to achieve wisdom, I respect your will to learn friend.

[Talkingfox]

. Also, that this kinds of drugs are extremly uncommon in the North lands, is almost imposible to find drugs in the wilds.


I lived in Alaska dude...I know what grows up North firsthand.

Actually the BEST drugs from the Northlands come from the wilds and have been used for millennia, circumpolar to boot.

[Krafkar]

I over generalized by saying drugs, my mistake. This information was written by my Berserker friend, his explanation is better than mine.

Causes of the berserkergang (http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/berserk.htm#causes):
There has been much speculation by historians and anthropologists, amateur and professional both, as to what exactly the berserkergang was. The most well-regarded theories are essentially of four types:

1)Alcohol induced. The theory here runs that an excess of alcohol could have lowered inhibitions in the minds of the berserks, leaving them short-tempered and prone to bouts of rage, as well as willing to both inflict and suffer great harm without really noticing.


2)Amanita muscaria induced. This theory holds that the gangr was brought about by ingestion of the psychoactive mushroom amanita muscaria (possibly the famous soma of India). The mechanism here is supposed to be the great strength and endurance the mushroom is said to give to those who ingest it, and that the rage could be triggered by the plant's psychoactive properties.


3)The berserks never existed. This school of thought holds that there is more of the fairy-tale creature than the real human to stories of the berserks, so as no easy explanation can be found for the gangr, they must never have existed.


4)Self-induced frenzy. This theory holds that the gangr was a self-induced religious ecstasy that prompted a temporary change in physiology.



1)Couldn't possibly be alcohol induced. Drunks just aren't formidable fighters. If you are so drunk you are prone to uncontrollable rage, you are too drunk to stand or to walk straight. And the anaesthetic effect of alcohol is a tricky thing. One touch of real pain and the recipient often sobers up real fast. This is why doctors and dentists switched from alcohol to chloroform as an anaesthetic as soon as it became available.


2)Extremely unlikely to have been brought about by amanita. While on the surface this seems like a very plausible explanation, backed up by the pharmacology of the mushroom, there are some serious problems with it. First of all, there is no record anywhere of its having been used for this purpose. There is very little evidence the vikings even knew it existed, except for in isolated pockets. Also, the mushroom is restricted to a limited growth season only in certain soil conditions in symbiotic relationship with the right trees, and only in temperate zones. There is no evidence that off this season berserks didn't fight. And berserks are also spoken of in Iceland, where this mushroom most definitely did not grow. Additionally the mushroom not only induces nausea in its initial stages, the effects - and lengths of effects - of the mushroom vary widely from one "trip" to the next. It would just not be practical to depend upon soldiers who might be unpredictably heaving their guts out when the battle started. And most tellingly of all, berserks are spoken of as having the berserk fit "come over them" at unexpected times. Hardly consistent with mushroom (or any other entheogen) ingestion.


3)It seems unlikely that berserks were entirely a product of story. They were spoken of too consistently in too many sources over too long a period of time. And problems involving them are mentioned in legal sources. In fact, during the Christian "conversion" strong laws were enacted against going berserk, lengths which would not have been gone to for imaginary fairy-tale creatures.


4)My conclusion is that the berserkergang was self-induced, a form of religious ecstasy. My reasons for this conclusion are several. First of all, Egil's Saga (as well as other sources) speak of the gangr as something that could come upon a berserk unexpectedly. Fabing cites sources that claim it could be brought about by laborious work. The Byzantine emperor Constantine VII refers to the "Gothic dance" of his Varangian Guard, which was ceremonial in nature and involved dressing in animal skins. (While it is not recorded whether the Varangian Guard were berserks - a term Constantine would not have known - they certainly are described in a similar manner.) In a similar vein, artifacts such as the Torslunda plate show Odin dancing with animal-skinned warriors. In the Volsunga Saga Sigmundr (chosen of Odin) and his son Sinfjolti put on wolf-skins and become nearly invincible. Berserks are described as leaping about before battle, or pacing like a caged animal, or biting upon their shields. Statues that may be of berserks show the warriors pulling strongly upon their beards (which is rather painful, to all you non-bearded persons). The thing each of these last examples have in common is that they would all tend to induce high adrenaline states, either through pain or through exertion, which is certainly consistent with descriptions as a cause of the gangr. And lastly the berserkergang is a phenomenon that is hardly unique to the vikings. The Greek maenads, female devotees of Dionysos, are described in a virtually identical manner (and yes, they were fighters according to legends of the wars in India). The Celtic Heroic Feats, practiced by such warrior bands as the Feanna, seems also identical. I might also mention the leopard-men of Africa, the wolf-warriors of the ancient Middle East, and possibly the Indonesian "Running Amok". And in many of these other cultures these practices are spoken of as something self-induced.


Source:http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/berserk.htm#causes

[Filius Fortunae]

Shamanic travels?

What is that? Further elucidation is required, sir.

First off, I would suggest trying astral projection. I find astral projection to be the most useful method of communicating with godforms. Find your heimdal and ask him what he wants for you to do. Keep a journal close by as well.

If you just want to go "berserk" though, there are probably better ways to reach that state...

Chants often work to create a concentrative or meditative state of consciousness that forms the basis of much magickal work. Of course, the use of mantra and prayer is very common in most spiritual traditions. Chanting can be used either to energize or sedate the central nervous system. Furthermore you could try just uttering meaningless non-sense. This is, of course, closely related to the so called "speaking in tongues" used in a number of religious traditions throughout the ages. Glossolalia over long period of time can result in a profoundly altered state of consciousness.

Music can also facilitate a trance state. Shamanic drumming causes what is called sonic driving. Drumming at 3 to 8 cycles per second will cause the listener's brain waves to be entrained into a theta state which is associated with states of vivid imagery and profound alterations of consciousness. Dancing is used in numerous magical and shamanic traditions as a method of intensifying the states of consciousness engendered by drumming.

[Ratatosk]

Most of the information you can find out in Internet is unreliable.

Exactly, and you seem to have fallen hard for some of the weakest garbage parading as "intelligent research" I have come across.


There are a lot of New Age people that writes silly stuff to gain some profit or even they don't know what are they talking about. Common sense is the best tool for researching and don't be a victim of a fraud. As the video of the dude with the nunchaku, that claims to be a Berseker. The most common term for an Asian martial art to call a Berserker is "Somafera" (http://www.uppsalaonline.com/uppsala/somafera/somafera%20-%20the%20body%20wild.html); they see that the incredible endurance and strength of berserkergang comes from inner energies as chackras etc etc.

About the Uppsalawayland site, i meet the owner over the internet. He is a very wise Berserker that have at last cleared my doubt of Berserkergang. You dont need any drugs or alcohol to achieved, just pure will.

Pain is the most common catalyst for any Berserker, but there are few people that use other emotions as joy, love, etc. You are going to be hug to death! hhahaha

People around the Internet claims that Vikings used fungus, alcohol, drugs to achieve it. But, isnt true. This person have trained drunk and it said that alcohol worse the things. Also, that this kinds of drugs are extremely uncommon in the North lands, is almost imposible to find drugs in the wilds.


WHAT?!?! As far as the Uppsalawayland site - there are no sources cited anywhere. So where did this guy do his research? Navel gazing? Go to the library, read some archeology texts. Find out some real history and then make your decisions based on real information, not the imagination of some internet idiot.

BTW - regarding amanita, alcohol and self-induced frenzy, a quick look at Wkipedia gives you some sources to start from:



Modern scholars believe certain examples of berserker rage to have been induced voluntarily by the consumption of drugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drugs) such as the hallucinogenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogenic) mushroom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom) Amanita muscaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_muscaria), commonly known as the fly agaric or fly Amanita (Howard D. Fabing. "On Going Berserk: A Neurochemical Inquiry." Scientific Monthly. 83 [Nov. 1956 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956)] p. 232), or massive quantities of alcohol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol) (Robert Wernick. The Vikings. Alexandria VA: Time-Life Books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-Life_Books). 1979 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979). p. 285). While such practices would fit in with ritual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual) usages, other explanations for the berserker's madness have been put forward, including self-induced hysteria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria), epilepsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilepsy), mental illness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_illness) or genetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic) flaws (Peter G. Foote and David m. Wilson. The Viking Achievement. London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London): Sidgewick & Jackson. 1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970). p. 285).

That why i asked if there is any shamanic practice more suitable for a warrior. I know that Seidr men are often known as "Ergi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergi), they where the shame of the warriors.

I will to become Odinist (http://tinwiki.org/wiki/Odinism), this is a secreat group of warriors that seeks to stop the Ragnarok to come. It is believed that if the last Odinist dies, the end of the World will come.


And you seem to not grasp the concept that Myth is not equal to Reality. The sagas are myths, meant to inform by way of story, how one is to conduct themselves. They are no more factual than any other myths. Once you start taking myths literally you fall into the realm of claiming the world is 6000 years old and some guy who lived for 700 of those years took a bunch of animals (including dinosaurs) on a boat while the entire earth drowned.



Sorry, but you are wrong friend. Berserkergang is to burst your body at its 100% function, where your eyes are more perceptive, your hearing becomes sharp, your reflexes speed improves. I never mentioned to fight with a Sword against a gun; in any battle whatever weapon you use, the function of your body is a great factor.I have talked to several Berserkers soldiers that are battling in Irak, they tell that their senses improves a lot when they become Berserkers. They are able to shoot at a long distance range with the bare eye, their agility and reflexed are high and they can even hear the bullets coming from far.


Some problems with this:



the berserker is not more perceptive, aware, etc. In fact they lose almost all perception, blindly cutting down friend and foe alike.
"This fury, which was called berserkergang, occurred not only in the heat of battle, but also during laborious work. Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its color. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. When this condition ceased, a great dulling of the mind and feebleness followed, which could last for one or several days" (Fabing, p. 234).
The next problem with that statement, you said that "they can even hear the bullets coming from far" - bullets are flying at faster than the speed of sound. One does not even hear the gunshot, much less the sound of the bullet, until it has already passed. This should have been the first clue that you were being fed a line of shit.
And finally, training to peak physical condition is not what berserker-gang is about. It is simply blind fury. However, having been in the military, training to peak physical condition is what the military is about, so no doubt these guys who are feeding you a line about hearing things they cannot possibly hear are at least truthful about that part.
Combat is a high-stress situation, which causes the body to dump adrenaline, which does heighten perception, speed up reflexes and sometimes enable feats of great strength. It has nothing at all to do with berserker-gang, it is simply a biological effect, also known as "fight or flight."




The first time Heimdall appeared at my dream, i was calling for Odin is wisdom rather Heimdall teachings. He came by his own to help me at my mission to create a Viking martial art club at my University, but he gave stronger meaning to it. To recruit One harriers, and help them to train. This way stop the Ragnarok, and spread the Nine Noble VIrtues.


Ok, again: you seem to not grasp the concept that Myth is not equal to Reality. There is nothing wrong with starting a martial arts club, nor is there anything wrong with trying to instill virute in those who attend. But to think this will anything at all to do with stopping a myth from becoming reality is like thinking that because I washed behind my ears this morning Chthulhu will not eat the universe this week.



Why Heimdall, because he is the father of mankind. He once came to teach humans to saw, woodcraft, saw and more. This explains why he also taught me to woodcraft and saw in my dreams. The most interesting fact, that in my dream i saw his golder teets. I later on researched on him, and found several traits I saw on my dreams that I never knew before. This prove that i didnt made it up in an Lucid dream manipulation, for this you need to know how is it to create it on your dream.


Heimdall is not the "father of mankind." In one saga (Rígsthula) he sleeps with 3 human couples (Great-Grandfather & Great-Grandmother, Grandfather & Grandmother, and Father & Mother) creating the stratified human society (laborers, warriors, and royalty). Another bit about discernment (which Heimdall is all about) in discerning one's place in society. I have the feeling that this particular saga was written more as way to justify a stratified society, however, and keep those in power there.



I never reject Heimdall is aid, and i gald that he came even I dont asked for him. We might call the God/dness , but sometimes they can call us. So, isnt certain whom of them would come.


Just because someone or something calls unbidden is no reason to accept it right off at face value. If you choose to do so, well, good on you, then and I leave you to it.



Doubt is a strong weapon to achieve wisdom, I respect your will to learn friend.

You are being condescending to someone who has been studying the Norse mythos, archaeology and sagas longer than I have, and I have been studying them longer than you have been alive. I would think very carefully before spouting off about how much more wise than someone else you are.

[m1thr0s]

http://abrahadabra.com/images/attached/popcorn01.gif http://abrahadabra.com/images/attached/pirate-popcorn.gif http://abrahadabra.com/images/attached/popcorn01.gif



m1 :laugh:

[Talkingfox]

The Farber quote that Rats cited outlining the physical effects of the Berserkergang is 100% in keeping with the ingestion of large amounts of Amanita Muscaria in an unaltered/unfiltered form.

Particularly telling is the swelling and reddening of the face and frothing at the mouth. Both are symptoms of Muscimol toxcicity. Muscimol is the decarboxylated product from ibotenic acid found in amanitas....yeah the same as is found in Iboga...You know Iboga? Used by the Leopard Men in Africa Iboga?


Most Shamanic uses of the stuff (ie Saami stuff) uses Amanita after it's been run through the kidneys of a reindeer or an experienced shaman and/ or in smaller amounts.

Personally I wouldn't want to be the guy whos job it is to follow a reindeer herd around with a bowl.


OH and btw, Amanita DOES grow in far north environments...very well I might add , regardless of what the folks at Uppsalwayland have to say about it. It gets HUGE in areas that regularly see -60f....and I wouldn't call that temperate at all.

And yeah the Norse DID know all about them. In the mythic, the mushrooms sprang from the blood flecked foam that fell from Sleipnir's mouth during a demon chased episode of the Wild Hunt. People don't just make up a mythic structure for things that they have no knowledge of, yanno?

Just another reason one should double check source materials...oh and maybe look at more than one or two of them.


Edit: I must point out here that in order to transform Ibotenic acid into Muscimol a mushroom must first be dried or cooked. This rules out the idea of accidental ingestion causing the afore mentioned effects.

[Krafkar]

I feel glad for your responses friends; this is how I like it..... A strong a vivid debate!

I am no fooling neither a charlatan; I accept that I might be wrong in several times. I am eighteen years old and I have been studying mysticism since sixteen; I got around two years and half of experience. I’m not a match for you my friends.Having mistakes and accepting them for further learning is the best way of acquiring wisdom, even the Norse God/dness had committed mistakes and learned from them. Even sacrifice is needed to achieve a greater wisdom that is Odin is way.

I must accept that I boast my knowledge intentionally sometimes, so this way I might have more strong and vivid responses. Don’t take it as an offense, I will to learn your wisdom.


Shamanic travels? What is that? Further elucidation is required, sir.
First off, I would suggest trying astral projection. I find astral projection to be the most useful method of communicating with godforms. Find your heimdal and ask him what he wants for you to do. Keep a journal close by as well.
I believe that I had an astral projection with Heimdall as you said. I will study further on astral projection to communicate with the God/dness then; it’s more adequate for my case than Seidr or Shamanism. Having a journal for dream record is not bad idea neither, thanks for the suggestion.


If you just want to go "berserk" though, there are probably better ways to reach that state... There are, I have discussed with other berserkers about this. I never have hate or rage for someone, it’s very strange when I am angry as Hel with a person. So, I believe rage isn’t an option. I have talked with woman berserkers that acclaim that they think in feelings as protecting their families, justice, etc. I wouldn’t use shamanism for berserkergang; I meant more like calling my spirit guide to aid me with my training. Astral projection seems to be the best option.


Chants often work to create a concentrative or meditative state of consciousness that forms the basis of much magickal work. Of course, the use of mantra and prayer is very common in most spiritual traditions. Chanting can be used either to energize or sedate the central nervous system. Furthermore you could try just uttering meaningless non-sense. This is, of course, closely related to the so called "speaking in tongues" used in a number of religious traditions throughout the ages. Glossolalia over long period of time can result in a profoundly altered state of consciousness.
This is a good way for meditating, I will research in Glossolalia. It is very interesting.

Music can also facilitate a trance state. Shamanic drumming causes what is called sonic driving. Drumming at 3 to 8 cycles per second will cause the listener's brain waves to be entrained into a theta state which is associated with states of vivid imagery and profound alterations of consciousness. Dancing is used in numerous magical and shamanic traditions as a method of intensifying the states of consciousness engendered by drumming. I got several drumming records i got over the internet; I have used them several times while resting on my bed to have clear images or thoughts. I read in this site that binaural waves has the same effect, and can be more effective. I recommend you to search for I-Doser (http://www.bloggernews.net/16919), there are several binaural tracks with different effects of drugs or moods. It got a record for meditation, astral projection, lucid dream and astral travel. You can find the tracks in any music downloader.

Ratatosk, i glad to meet you.I have read several posts from you. I really liked the one of the kenning explanation on the Norse lore, you are very wise my friend.


WHAT?!?! As far as the Uppsalawayland site - there are no sources cited anywhere. So where did this guy do his research? Navel gazing? Go to the library, read some archeology texts. Find out some real history and then make your decisions based on real information, not the imagination of some internet idiot. BTW - regarding amanita, alcohol and self-induced frenzy, a quick look at Wkipedia gives you some sources to start from:

This man did the research on himself will training, is this inst a primary source? I have read Wikipedia, and i don't believe the information there. Doubt is a strong weapon, i can recognize a fool when i see it. Even I don't believe the Eddas 100%, because they where edited by Christians. I got my points, i will share about this topic later on another post my friends.

I dont see this person seeking for profit, or distributing this information across the Internet. Also, i have talked with him in his forum. He doesnt says the secreats of berserkang until one is prepared, the task is hard. He once told me the failure of one person he meet, that ended with seriously injuiries.


Modern scholars believe certain examples of berserker rage to have been induced voluntarily by the consumption of drugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drugs) such as the hallucinogenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogenic) mushroom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom) Amanita muscaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_muscaria), commonly known as the fly agaric or fly Amanita (Howard D. Fabing. "On Going Berserk: A Neurochemical Inquiry." Scientific Monthly. 83 [Nov. 1956 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956)] p. 232), or massive quantities of alcohol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol) (Robert Wernick. The Vikings. Alexandria VA: Time-Life Books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-Life_Books). 1979 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979). p. 285).


The difference in the word prove (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prove)and believe (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/believe)is very different. Believe are opinions, those historians got their theories (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theories) that can be truth or not. They never prove that the cause was that one, so it is uncertain. I trust more the man that trained while being drunk, and tried the effects on himself rather than on finding in arqueological excavations.


And you seem to not grasp the concept that Myth is not equal to Reality. The sagas are myths, meant to inform by way of story, how one is to conduct themselves. i know, i dont believe the literaly. Odinists are a group of people that have that thought, there isnt a harm for thinking that way. They have a positive perspective on the world end, and they are fighting to stop it. Even its believed that this secreacy group holds the original Eddas , even the lost ones. Christians got a vault of ancient and forvidden text on the Vatican, why Heathens couldnt? Our forefathers where smart warriors, i dont doubt their legancy still alive.

About the Bersker soldiers, most of the info were boast. Only reflexes and perception was true at all.I apologize for that, but you see the good wisdom that Ratatosk gave us. Thanks for the explanation friend.


Heimdall is not the "father of mankind." In one saga (Rígsthula) he sleeps with 3 human couples (Great-Grandfather & Great-Grandmother, Grandfather & Grandmother, and Father & Mother) creating the stratified human society (laborers, warriors, and royalty). Another bit about discernment (which Heimdall is all about) in discerning one's place in society. I have the feeling that this particular saga was written more as way to justify a stratified society, however, and keep those in power there.

You are right, but one way or another it give sense to my dreams with Heimdall and that what he have been teaching to me.


You are being condescending to someone who has been studying the Norse mythos, archaeology and sagas longer than I have, and I have been studying them longer than you have been alive. I would think very carefully before spouting off about how much more wise than someone else you are.
I know, i apologized for this one before. There is never an absolut true, that why doubt is a wise weapon. Thanks for your time friends, you really aid me at my search. I will glad to be here, i found great people to debate with.

[Ratatosk]

The difference in the word prove (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prove)and believe (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/believe)is very different. Believe are opinions, those historians got their theories (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theories) that can be truth or not. They never prove that the cause was that one, so it is uncertain. I trust more the man that trained while being drunk, and tried the effects on himself rather than on finding in arqueological excavations.


First: without the use of time travel there is no way to prove one way or the other how these states of rage were reached, or even if they have been accurately reported. However, based on the reporting of these states, and certain physical clues which have been attributed to them, and the known effects of drugs which were and still are well known in the North countries, certain inferences can be made. These are known as hypotheses. It is only when those hypotheses can be accurately and repeatedly be proven in experimentation (or in the case of archaeology repeatedly backed up by the finds from digs and documentation) does it become a theory. (This is the same weak argument that Creationists use when they try to say "evolution is only a theory." - To which the proper reply is "yes, just like gravity.")

I would much rather put my money on the scientists doing the actual research and study, than on some guy on the internet who says he can't hold his liquor.

[As an aside - I once had to help 6 Military Police subdue one man. He was 5'2" (157 cm) and was incredibly drunk. He managed to beat down 4 of the MPs before I arrived with the other 2. It took all of us piling on him just to get him shackled and cuffed to put into the police car. This, in spite of the fact that he had an 18" (46cm) long shard of glass buried in his arm to the bone (from smashing out several plate glass windows with his fists.) When we finally got him to the hospital his BAC was over .24 - in other words he should have been unconscious and near death. Everybody handles their booze differently and I would not have wanted to try to take him down by myself.]




i know, i dont believe the literaly. Odinists are a group of people that have that thought, there isnt a harm for thinking that way. They have a positive perspective on the world end, and they are fighting to stop it. Even its believed that this secreacy group holds the original Eddas , even the lost ones. Christians got a vault of ancient and forvidden text on the Vatican, why Heathens couldnt? Our forefathers where smart warriors, i dont doubt their legancy still alive.


You say that you don't believe them literally, yet you are taking them literally when you are "trying to prevent Ragnarok" - so which is it? If you really don't take them literally then you need to step back and examine why you believe in a literal Ragnarok.

As far as "ancient and forbidden" Heathen texts hiding somewhere - that is pure fantasy. The sagas were not written down until post-conversion. It was the Christian monks who wrote them all down (and added their own spin, no doubt.) Prior to that all of these tales were passed on orally. So again, unless you have a time machine (and can speak Old Norse - or at lease Icelandic which is the closest modern language to Old Norse) you are out of luck on getting to the "original" sagas and eddas.

And I disagree, there is a harm in believing myth literally. Look where it has gotten the world with respect to the Judeo-Christian mythos. There are people who are actively trying to bring about Armageddon. Fantasy is fine and well in its place, but take care lest you let it rule over everything you do, think and say. For while you are occupied with your fantasies reality will pass you by.

[Krafkar]

I said:
The difference in the word prove (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prove)and believe (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/believe)is very different. Believe are opinions, those historians got their theories (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theories) that can be truth or not. They never prove that the cause was that one, so it is uncertain. I trust more the man that trained while being drunk, and tried the effects on himself rather than on finding in arqueological excavations.I explained that I am used to boast sometimes, doubt is a great weapon for acquiring wisdom. My friend, we know that absolute wisdom doesn't exists. Odin is not Omnipotent, neither is Mirmir. They don't have the absolute wisdom, having all the knowledge would drown them in their own truth.

For more money and effort they expend those scientist, there will never reach an absolute wisdom or truth. I always have the right to doubt of the most wise man, and regreat his words. But, one must will to learn about this people... and dont act as a fool. I use this tactic to achieve more wisdom, is a retroactive way in which both sides learn more each time.


You say that you don't believe them literally, yet you are taking them literally when you are "trying to prevent Ragnarok" - so which is it? If you really don't take them literally then you need to step back and examine why you believe in a literal Ragnarok.My bad, friend I have to admit that my English is not to good. I often mistake words, or my sentences doesn't got sense.

We have a misunderstood here.The theory of the preventing the Ragnarok is Odinist, i never said I was an Odinist. Just that I would like to become one.I like the idea that a human can be capable of becoming a extraordinary mortal (hero or semigod). Is not an easy task, but the belief that it can be possible give you motivation for becoming a better person.


As far as "ancient and forbidden" Heathen texts hiding somewhere - that it pure fantasy. The sagas were not written down until post-conversion. It was the Christian monks who wrote them all down (and added their own spin, no doubt.) Prior to that all of these tales were passed on orally. So again, unless you have a time machine (and can speak Old Norse - or at lease Icelandic which is the closest modern language to Old Norse) you are out of luck on getting to the "original" sagas and eddas.I know friend, this is another Odinist belief. The members of the Odin Brotherhood are scattered around the world, this can be the actual way in which the lore is still being spread orally around the world.


And I disagree, there is a harm in believing myth literally. Look where it has gotten the world with respect to the Judeo-Christian mythos. There are people who are actively trying to bring about Armageddon. Fantasy is fine and well in its place, but take care lest you let it rule over everything you do, think and say. For while you are occupied with your fantasies reality will pass you by.Again, I am not Odinist. Just that in my opinion people that will to become better men and help others doesnt harm anyone. The Ragnarok will come when brothers fight among them, the time of the sword and the axe. Lets say that they are Odin brotherhood members are peace keeper warriors to stop the Ragnarok, if they dont fight among each other then the Ragnarok will never come.

Note: Boasting was a common Nordic tradition, sorry if i caused trouble. I would try to be less Skeptical, i don't meant to cause any harm or dispute. My actions are for acquiring wisdom, if either sides stop the debate would end. I use doubt , so the other side need to explain another point of view, and then I can argue against or agree. So, everyone happy then!:)

[m1thr0s]

The movie *The Last Samurai* does a pretty graphic job of demonstrating why the Berzerkers really have no place in modern warfare, unless you think that slapstick adds to the flavor of combat in some way.
The Samurai also relied fairly heavily on initial *shock-attack* tactics but up against modern machine guns this maneuver lost all its sting in one fell swoop.

The old song *Send in the Clowns* comes to mind...:laugh:

Admittedly the Kamikaze's were kind of an updated variation on this old theme and today we have suicide bombings (also vaguely similar) but for the most part modern warfare has no real strategic use for a special squad of frothing goons who charge in dramatically in advance of an army in hopes of scaring the peejeezus out of the enemy... Machines don't really give a flying crap one way or the next...

m1

[Talkingfox]

Yup...with you there m1.

Let's assume that Krafkar is looking at the particular Bear Shirt fighting style vs. the "Bare of SHirt" (ie naked) full on frothing battle wrath.

That style required going in swinging hard (think of a pissed off bear) in frontline hand to hand. Fucking useless against a gun.
Even the wolfshirt stuff, while a bit more useful for guerrilla tactics, is less than effective against modern weapons.

I tend not to trust anybody who's 'training' and says "OOooooo dude, I , like go all into battle rage and stuff" Chances are they've never even seen real battle firsthand, let alone tested any of their 'techniques' out in reality. And if they have in modern soldiery I'll bet dollars to doughnuts they're either sitting in the stockade or lying in the morgue.


The "Warrior culture" thing is where I see fanatsism run amok modern Heathenism.

Yeah fine, the wolf shirts and bear shirts were elite warriors. They were required for the survival of the tribe from raiding parties and what not. Yeahyeah, even the Romans used them. Yeah...2000 YEARS AGO.

I can't remember the last time my backyard was raided by Goths.

While I understand everyone would like to be 'elite' in some fashion , it takes more than pseudo-studying stuff that is no longer applicable to this day and time.

Are you drawn to soldiery? Fine...do that. Want to be elite?
Fine... do that really well and see if you can get special forces training.

Just actually do something with real practical application

In my mind a warrior isn't just one trained well in the arts of soldiery. It is one willing to put oneself in harms way for the greater good.

I consider those who are able to think for themselves, take on those who do violence to the environment and human rights and are willing to take rubber bullets, tear gas, incarceration and police beatdowns warriors of the finest stripe.

[Krafkar]

xD

I'm not stupid to run half naked against someone with a gun. i would wear and armor if i am doing so. I understand what mean, don't worry friends. I don't really believe everyone at 100%, just part of it that can be possible reliable.

And about modern warfare, have you ever seen on video games or movies that the military seeks to create super soldiers? Even soldiers with animal instincts and reflexes?

Anyone of you is familiarized with the Metal Gear series, in the videogame there are soldiers with animal implants that make them move faster, have great reflexes and jump long distances. This video game is the most realistic thing that might happen in a future. Biotechnologies and genetic engineer are improving each year, dont doubt that this might happen in a future.

[m1thr0s]

Perhaps we are gradually winding our way towards a more productive discussion as to what *modern warriorship* actually entails. Certainly the spirit of the Berzerkers is still alive I think...the question is where it is best directed. The Art of War repeatedly emphasizes *knowing the terrain* and *knowing the enemy* as accurately as possible. A false sense of either can cost you the battle itself. In war, reality = survival...unreality = death.

m1

[Krafkar]

You couldn't said it better.

So, regarding my question of the shamanic warrior. I understood that Sedir doesn't fits for what i am looking for, and shamanism is not necessary at all. Filius Fortunae suggested taht I should try astral projection to contact the God/dness. My intentions are to recall better what they taught me at my dreams and to ask for aid at my training. i dont remember if i posted that Heimdall taught me a martial art in my dream, i was wrestling with him.

The martial art goes like this:

He taught me some brutal holds and strikes.

The fighting positions is sided, left foot more far front than the right one. Both at the shoulder height. The arms are risen until the elbows are at your neck height ,and the hands are open to the front. One arm is higher than the other, be sure to cover your chest with your forearms and elbows, also the face in case it needed.The arms resemble a ram its horns, you can give an idea with this how the position of the arm is placed over the head. It seems like Kung Fu or Wing Chun but isn't, i have practice them little and is different;only a few things are alike. While, the arms in positions; the idea is to fit them as you where holding a giant ball in front of your face. Bigger enough to hold a head between those spaces. For running toward the opponent i drag my feet giving knee kicks when i reach my target. The idea of this is to charge, and hold the head. The you can throw the opponent whatever you like, also you can charge an fist him in the neck and the grab it with one hand while punching him, with the other hand to then throw him . He is unable to breathe; you hold him with a huge hug and squeeze his lungs until he is dizzy to throw him away. Is kind of insane, the idea of charging while all body covered and then grab the opponent. Manipulating the head (balance) and the breath of your opponent to tire him. I haven't been able to practice it, there are just bases not a complete art.

I would go practice with a friend that knows Wing Chun, to develop counters to their techniques. My friend is smaller and weaker in comparison with my sturdy body. When I practiced with him, he couldn't control my strength and i cant relax my muscles to fight with more delicate movements because I to sturdy. This art plays with you enemy strength, so my friend can practice as I can learn to counter this kind of arts.

[Talkingfox]

You might find this book a good resource

Ancient Germanic Warriors: Warrior Styles from Trajan's Column to Icelandic Sagas by Michael Speidel (http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Germanic-Warriors-Warrior-Icelandic/dp/0415311993)


This guy has seriously done his homework. :yes:

The Amazon Link above has loads of chunky samples too.

[Krafkar]

Thanks , I will seek it for further reading.