What type of Alchemy do you do? [Archive]

Luciftias

10-26-2006, 08:31 AM

I'm just wondering about the types of alchemy the members of this board practice. For instance, do any of you regularly perform actual physical distilations with flasks and condensers? How about psychological alchemy, perhaps like that inspired by the work of Carl G. Jung? What about Taoist Internal Alchemy? I've seen a couple references to that one in a few threads. Anyone doing something that they call "Alchemy" that doesn't fall into these three categories? I'm not really very clear on what Abrahadabra transformational alchemy is. I'm very curious to hear what Alchemy means to each of you and, if you practice it, how you generally go about that. I'm just looking for a broad demographic of the members of this forum.

I'll go first. I feel that Alchemy starts out with the quest for longevity/immortality and leads towards the goal of apotheosis. Lab Alchemy (with flasks and all) and Psychological Alchemy (aka magick) would be the two main forms of Applied Hermeticism as I see it, and I practice these. Taoist Internal Alchemy is a technique for harnessing the generative force for use in acheiving the above mentioned goals. I currently practice the two forms of Applied Hermeticism. I practiced Taoist Internal Alchemy for a couple years and currently the concepts continue to inspire me but I am not actively involved in that work anymore.

Luciftias

Kain

10-26-2006, 09:13 AM

Amur

10-26-2006, 11:31 AM

m1thr0s

10-26-2006, 01:44 PM

I'm not really very clear on what Abrahadabra transformational alchemy is.Wow. I am sort of sorry to hear that Luciftias since I have spent what I thought was quite a bit of time defining all of this. I appreciate you making this statement very much at this time. I guess I still have a long way to go here.

Firstly, Abrahadabra and Mutational Alchemy are actually not precisely the same thing...they just happen to coincide very effectively. In as few words as possible, Abrahadabra provides a certain map of the Body of Light while Mutational Alchemy provides a certain mechanism for navigating the *territory* identified by this map. The term Mutational Alchemy is not arbitrary but is drawn from the term *mutationism* which is one of the terms used to define the study of the 64 binary and/or 729 ternary hexagrammal *mutations* (or *changes*) outlined in the I Ching or the Tai Hsuan Ching respectively. At their most basic level, these are made up of stacked layers of *bigrams* which form the core elemental theory supporting either system, 4 principal bigrams on the binary side and 9 principal bigrams on the ternary side. In a larger sense, Mutational Alchemy goes on to consider all geomantic energy constructs of any kind but primarily focuses on these two great systems which have a lot of development time behind them and also have a great deal in common with the mathematics of DNA/RNA.

Mutational Alchemy outlines a certain logic and methodology for creating controlled energy fields based upon this particular physics and then also goes on to explore all the various ways there may be of asserting those energy fields in a range of different contexts. It is fundamentally an energy *weaving* logick that allows us to do a lot of very precise things with energy itself based upon the rules of this underscoring physics. So you could take an I Ching reading (just one example) by the usual means and Mutational Alchemy would tell you how to *build* that structure energetically. It would also tell you any number of things about the elemental makeup of that structure and how it might apply to other known *maps* such as Chakras or the Tree of Life etc. Abrahadabra is just one of these maps, but happens to be one that incorporates virtually all other known maps within itself.

I have only studied Taoist Internal Alchemy peripherally and would very much like to know more about how it operates...both its assumptions and its techniques. Perhaps you will find some time to expound on this a bit more. I suspect we may have some important notes to share here. What I have discovered is that Mutational Alchemy itself is so vast that there is not anything I have yet encountered that it does not account for within itself and it has been very preoccupying just keeping pace with its own tenets as I have discovered them. It seems to be a curious blend of all other forms of Alchemy in one but it is most accurate to define it as a tantric (and therefor an Internal) alchemy. As time has allowed I have studied both physical and spiritual alchemies from all over the place and am confident that Mutational Alchemy is a bona fide alchemy by every litmus test I can find.

Nevertheless, systems vary according to terminolgy and specialized assertions and techniques, so the search goes on for as much knowledge as I can amass in all these other branches of alchemy in general.

Ok...that was more words than I intended to spend on this. I hope it helps to make this particular kind of alchemy more clear at least.

m1thr0s

Amur

10-26-2006, 02:09 PM

Ahh... Now I understood the true scope of Abrahadabra mutational alchemy. I'm a bit slow on some things for some reason :D Quite neat. Thumbs up! :D More like connecting the cables from one piece of information to another piece of information. Must be the highly dissociative state with borders between the personalities.

m1thr0s

10-26-2006, 02:13 PM

More like connecting the cables from one piece of information to another piece of information.Yes, very much like that Amur. I was a student of the I Ching for some years before ever encountering western Magick, Qabbalah etc. When I did discover these things I was never especially happy with the general lack of logical integrity I found there but very impressed with the wealth of creative ideas being expressed. This set me on a path of trying to find ways to blend the mathematics of the East with the creative content of the West and it all sort of came together in Abrahadabra, generally. That's probably where some of the confusion comes in with my stuff. Abrahadabra sort of stepped in to fill a gap but the underscoring methodology was already taking shape by this time. I began by trying to sort out how 64 hexagrams might fit into 32 Paths & Sepheroth for instance since it is an easy matter to pair the 64 to get 32 bonded pairs...

It's interesting to realize that people who have been supportive of my bullshit in general do not appear to have a clear idea what the hell I am talking about in many instances. I hadn't clearly realized this. I suppose that just serves to let me know the work I have yet to do... We can't cross-reference this stuff very effectively (which is my biggest personal motivation behind doing this site at all) if we are not clear as to what the hell it even is...

m1thr0s

MythMath

10-26-2006, 10:02 PM

In the beginning...

m1thr0s

10-27-2006, 12:25 AM

...there was the Word? And the Word was God and the Word was with God?

I still reflect on that passage periodically although I believe it probably reads differently in Hebrew...

m1thr0s

Marcus_

10-27-2006, 04:22 AM

After many years of meditating on memories and hurt parts, trying to imput the correct counter-feeling to dissolve it, I went forward to trying some other mechanisms in healing. Now I'm primarly involved with sexual alchemy and kundalini balancing. I'm very eagerly awaiting to begin some true alchemy, but unfortunately I'm pretty much broke so I have nothing to buy the equipment I would require.

Apparently with sexual energy, everything can be healed and have almost come to the point where I call it the natural spiritual healing system. So no wonder it has been deprived of humanity.
You just said the magick words.:D

I love to mix and match sorts of consciousness, essence and pranics.

Once people figure out how to use the energy that their bodies can generate/access together, it really get's to be self-expanding. It's not as easy to look into yourself as it is to look into another being, sometimes. Also, a heterosis of uniqueness will almost always result in more strength for both.

Marcus_

10-27-2006, 04:23 AM

...there was the Word? And the Word was God and the Word was with God?

I still reflect on that passage periodically although I believe it probably reads differently in Hebrew...

m1thr0s
Was I meant to say to you:
"The Word" had to do with a combination of sound/vibration, and consciousness/order/information?

m1thr0s

10-27-2006, 05:08 AM

"The Word" had to do with a combination of sound/vibration, and consciousness/order/information?yeah...at least that and a whole lot more. Perhaps the most difficult thing to qualify is that such a word must also incorporate all aspects of Being in order to unite Will...so we are not just looking at an extremely *efficient* word as we might normally understand words but a word which somehow, within itself, contains all possibilities of existence. Probably a not in the dictionary sort of Word...

m1thr0s

Amur

10-27-2006, 06:50 AM

There are some words that seem to trigger alot of energetical response. I believe one could make a new language with this, balanced between earth and heaven. Sanskrit might be it also, but there's still alot of factors to place out.

Basically Khoomei and Sygut singing resonates alot of energy also. I believe that the Great Work can also be achieved through opening up and perfecting ones tones in the voice.

Anibis

10-27-2006, 11:33 AM

...there was the Word? And the Word was God and the Word was with God?

I still reflect on that passage periodically although I believe it probably reads differently in Hebrew...

m1thr0s

That would have been in Greek, I think...
-Ibisis-

Luciftias

10-27-2006, 12:41 PM

For me, Alchemy essentially encompasses a set of technical processes aimed towards the understanding, conscious manipulation and greater integration of both internal and external universe. It is highly "scientific" in nature if such a term can be used, and counts on observing and documenting actual (and essential) forces of change at work, whose interplay and collective mutual interraction within a given alchemical model can provide a map/elemental control pannel with the ability to parralel as closely as possible Reality itself. The attainance of immortality and eventually Apotheosis is a very important point as well, and I thoroughly agree Luciftias.

That is an excellent description of Alchemy, Kain. I guess I only really mentioned the most common motivations for people to begin to get involved in Alchemy. To re-word your first statement, just to make sure we understand each other, at the accomplishment of the Great Work there would be no real separation of the inner and outer universe of the alchemist, and the successful alchemist would not only be able to handle that state of unity, but would be able to make use of his greatly expanded understanding of the nature of reality by being able to consciously direct the spagyric process (ie solve et coagula) in general.

Alchemy plays a very important role in my personal practices. My approach falls on the "Internal Alchemy" side rather than physical lab Alchemy. I am primarilly working on energy work focused upon the fascilitation of the Body of Light and my main methods employ elements from Tantra/Kundalini Yoga and Taoism. I have found the I Ching and Tao Te Ching of exceptional worth in this endeavor, although I have not until now involved myself with so-called Taoist Internal Alchemy formally. I intend to do so in the future though, as it sounds very interesting and appealing as a system, but for now my approach is primarrily focused around the harnessing of the Kundalini force.

I understand Taoist Internal Alchemy (TIA) to actually be a method of gradual and systematic awakening and control of the Kundalini force in a relatively safe manner following time-honored tradition. The most accessable and clearly stated information in English on TIA that I have found has come from Mantak Chia as well as from his student Steven Yudelove (who mixes some Western stuff into his teachings.) Typically TIA is taught to only a select few after years of dedication in a student-teacher relationship. Chia's system (which is the fusion of a couple related disciplines) is quite openly taught, at least the beginning and intermediate stages. Eva Wong has a few good books on the system as well, some of which are actual translations of practical Taoist texts. It's always useful to go back to the original source material.

Basically, certain energy nodes in the body are awakened and circuits of energy are passed through them. The main circuit is traditionally called the "Small Heavenly Cycle" and Chia calls it the "Microcosmic Orbit". It consists of two channels, one going up the back and one going down the front. There are a couple "water wheels" that can be set going which automatically circulate the energy, there are a couple energy pumps that you can manually activate and there are three main "culdrons" where energy is stored and tranformed. You gradually learn to transform the different types of Chi in your body to more refined forms through the culdrons and then circulate these energies through the channels that you have activated (which are closely related to the acupuncture meridians.) There are several formulae that you accomplish in sequence, including the fusion of the five Chinese elements in your system. Ultimately you learn how to create the Elixir in your body and also to conceive a golden fetus and nuture it to development into a body of light. I never got even close to that far before focusing my efforts on more Western forms of Alchemy, but even just activating the microcosmic orbit is considered highly beneficial.

Some of the side practices involve "sexual kung-fu", which for men includes learning how to acheive multiple non-ejaculatory orgasms and to circulate the energy generated during such. Also, Iron Shirt Chi Kung/Kung Fu, which involves strengthing the facia, tendons and bones in the body. Those are the two main side practices that are mentioned most often in Chia's books. I personally started out with the sexual practices, it being one of the most fun to practice and most immediately applicable in daily life. That lead me to the core TIA practices of energy circulation and refinement. I have also casually engaged in a couple forms of Tai Chi, Chi Kung and Kung Fu on ocassion (a couple months here and there.)

Luciftias

Luciftias

10-27-2006, 12:51 PM

That would have been in Greek, I think...
-Ibisis-

That's right. The Christian scriptures, including the Gospel of John from which that quote derives, were written in Greek. One thing that I found interesting while involved in the more French schools of magical-mysticism (such as Memphis-Misraim and Martinism/Martinezism) is that they claim "Word" ("Logos" in Latin) is most accurately translated as "Verb." It isn't just a noun or adjective, but implies action. I believe that the French translation of the Gospel of John actually uses the French word for verb.

Luciftias

P.S. Funny how quickly a thread can develop these kinds of tangents.

m1thr0s

10-27-2006, 01:32 PM

The Christian scriptures, including the Gospel of John from which that quote derives, were written in Greek.Uhhh...the phrase "In the beginning..." derives from Genesis which is OT, not NT, and Hebrew in origin, not Greek, though one might argue it actually originates in Sumerian. There is an interesting article on the hidden geometry of the opening sentence here (http://www.meru.org/coast/SymmWovenGen-GenYetz.pdf)... though I am never sure how much stock to place in these things...curious though...

I don't actually know what the opening phrase of the NT is...is it a rewording of Genesis?

m1thr0s

Anibis

10-27-2006, 01:54 PM

The OT (Hebrew) opening is "In the Beginning God Created the Heaven and the Earth, and the Earth was without form and void, and Darkness was upon the face of the Deep. The Spirit of God Moved upon the face of the waters and God said 'Let there be Light'..."

The opening for the Gospel of John (Greek) is "In the Beginning there was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God".

"Logos" is a greek concept going back at least as far as Heraclitus, where it was the inherent rational 'code of operation' of the universe (Which was in a flux between opposites). The Greek rationalism and the Hebrew volitionalism (if I may call it that) came together in the Christian doctrine. Though the OT texts are technically older, the OT itself was published as a Greek translation before it was properly canonized. The OT (More like the HB 'Hebrew Bible') and NT were canonized within a few hundred years of one another. The opening Gospel of the NT is Mathew, and it is grouped together with Mark and Luke as a 'Synoptic Gospel', which means 'seen together'. This is because these three texts contain word by word identical passages. The conclusion has been that they actually are three different interpretations of a lost source text called 'Q' for 'Quelle', since this hypothesis was put forth by French Scholars.

John, where we get the Logos passage, is the only Gospel in the canon that is not synoptic ( the heretical 'Thomas' is synoptic too, I believe). John is a somewhat gnostic text, and in addition to the logos passage, also has the lovely bit about "nobody comes to the father but through me", the we all know and love so well...

The clearest parallel to Genesis in the NT is actually the last chapter of Revelation, where the City of the New Jerusalem descends, and has all the features of Eden: the Tree, the Rivers, and so on... And of course the lovely ourobouratic: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End".

Hope that's usefull. Might be better in another thread, though.
-Ibisis-

m1thr0s

10-27-2006, 01:58 PM

Hope that's usefull. Might be better in another thread, though.Ahhh...so it is a rephrasing...thanks...I obviously never read that stuff anymore...just never seems especially useful...

...and yes...another topic I think...

m1thr0s

Amur

10-27-2006, 02:08 PM

You might like to check Popol Vuh (http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/maya/pvgm/). It's the same creation story except from another viewpoint. I have an itch that it is more exact. According to Popol Vuh, God made a mistake in the first creations and deleted them. This viewpoint again has that 'ET' vibe for atleast myself, as an Eternal God would not make a mistake, unless he was bored of Perfection and wanted some challenge :confused: clueless... hehe...

Luciftias

10-27-2006, 02:20 PM

Uhhh...the phrase "In the beginning..." derives from Genesis which is OT, not NT, and Hebrew in origin, not Greek, though one might argue it actually originates in Sumerian. There is an interesting article on the hidden geometry of the opening sentence here (http://www.meru.org/coast/SymmWovenGen-GenYetz.pdf)... though I am never sure how much stock to place in these things...curious though...

I don't actually know what the opening phrase of the NT is...is it a rewording of Genesis?

m1thr0s

You were quoting the Gospel of John, supposed to have originally been written in Greek, which opens with the sentence: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Genesis, supposed to have originally been written in Hebrew, does also start with "In the beginning..." as well, but continues with "...God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void..."

In Genesis, "In the beginning" is Bereshith ("בראש֖ית" in Hebrew.) In the Septuagnit translation of Genesis into Greek, the first two words are identical with the first two words in the oldest (Greek) version of the Gospel of John, written as "ἐν ἀρχῇ".

And I was wrong about "Word" being "Logos" in Latin. It is actually "Verbum" in Latin and is "Logos" ("λόγος"") in the original Greek.

Luciftias

m1thr0s

10-27-2006, 02:25 PM

Ok...thanks for the clarification. The Oruboros latticework in that pdf article from the Hebrew version is intriguing if anybody gets a chance to look at it.

This comment puzzled me:

I practiced Taoist Internal Alchemy for a couple years and currently the concepts continue to inspire me but I am not actively involved in that work anymore.Why are you no longer involved with this practise if you found it useful? Was there something important missing there do you think?

m1thr0s

Marcus_

10-27-2006, 04:01 PM

yeah...at least that and a whole lot more. Perhaps the most difficult thing to qualify is that such a word must also incorporate all aspects of Being in order to unite Will...so we are not just looking at an extremely *efficient* word as we might normally understand words but a word which somehow, within itself, contains all possibilities of existence. Probably a not in the dictionary sort of Word...

m1thr0s
I'd guessed that the very first forms of life to evolve in the universe were forms of living vibration.

In the same way as DNA is a sequence of molecules, vibration-based life is a sequence of wave-patterns. Life gives birth to life, and eventually all sorts of energies and materials evolved.

But, my foundationalism here -- is that the cosmos is a sort of lifeform, which grows, changes and develops through its time.

Luciftias

10-27-2006, 04:15 PM

Why are you no longer involved with this practise if you found it useful? Was there something important missing there do you think?

haha.. I was wondering if anyone would question that. The work that I'm doing with Applied Hermetics that I mentioned before is kinda delicate. If I throw TIA into the mix then I won't know if any results I get will have been from the Hermetics or the TIA. As I am trying to develop as percise an understanding of the "machinery of the mind" (as Dion Fortune refered to it) as I can, being able to determine cause and effect is very important to me. Especially in the case of an undesirable result. I need to be able to determine what caused it in order to try and repair any damage that may have occurred. Another caution is that mixing the two systems, which both work to gradually unblock the ideal flow of generative life force, could potentially result in the uncontrolled, premature release of "kundalini". I think most of us have an idea about what kinds of damage that can cause - physical damage and schitzophrenia being among the possible results.

It's a personal choice that I've made, and a difficult one as I enjoyed TIA. Like I said, I still study the system of TIA as I find it useful and it continues to inspire my understanding of such things, however I don't actively participate in the core practices anymore. That being said, I'm pretty sure that some of the work that I did in the past with TIA has caused relatively permanant changes in me. For instance, my sex life will never go back to the way it was before, even though I'm not actively practicing sexual kung-fu. Also, I will still do some relatively mild things like Tai Chi sometimes, but only really as a form of physical exercise.

Luciftias

m1thr0s

10-27-2006, 04:28 PM

I'd guessed that the very first forms of life to evolve in the universe were forms of living vibration.I'm pretty sure any Hermetic Alchemist would agree...the same might be said for the highest forms of life to have evolved as well, but then...I am inclined to view stars as intelligent...universes as well for that matter...

m1thr0s

m1thr0s

10-27-2006, 04:41 PM

If I throw TIA into the mix then I won't know if any results I get will have been from the Hermetics or the TIA.well...not to be argumentative, but it seems to me you have already done that. I guess I tend to think it's all a homogenous sort of mix anyway...I don't believe in the validity of any so-called "pure" practise personally. I think the truth is that we are all sort of following up on whatever is already going on internally and this will necessarily be a blend of many things...somehow pointed in a direction of some kind but since the process of evolving is fundamentally piecemeal, I don't see the validity in patented processes of any kind...

more a *guidelines* than an actual *rules* to quote one of my favorite pirates.

m1thr0s

Kain

10-27-2006, 05:34 PM

That is an excellent description of Alchemy, Kain. I guess I only really mentioned the most common motivations for people to begin to get involved in Alchemy. To re-word your first statement, just to make sure we understand each other, at the accomplishment of the Great Work there would be no real separation of the inner and outer universe of the alchemist, and the successful alchemist would not only be able to handle that state of unity, but would be able to make use of his greatly expanded understanding of the nature of reality by being able to consciously direct the spagyric process (ie solve et coagula) in general.Thanks Luciftias. Exactly, very good description.
I understand Taoist Internal Alchemy (TIA) to actually be a method of gradual and systematic awakening and control of the Kundalini force in a relatively safe manner following time-honored tradition. The most accessable and clearly stated information in English on TIA that I have found has come from Mantak Chia as well as from his student Steven Yudelove (who mixes some Western stuff into his teachings.) Typically TIA is taught to only a select few after years of dedication in a student-teacher relationship. Chia's system (which is the fusion of a couple related disciplines) is quite openly taught, at least the beginning and intermediate stages. Eva Wong has a few good books on the system as well, some of which are actual translations of practical Taoist texts. It's always useful to go back to the original source material.That's very helpful material Luciftias, thanks a lot for that! Your post has intrigued me and I will certainly be learning more about this practice soon enough. Hmm...so it is more closely related to Kundalini work than I originally thought. Very interesting...
more a *guidelines* than an actual *rules* to quote one of my favorite pirates.Very good point m1thr0s, I fully agree. In fact, I think that this should be the way one approaches any system. It's important to remind ourselves that omitted guidelines can often have equally severe ramiffications and not allow our guard to go down because of subjectivity coming into the picture, but the truth is that all codified systems are approaches to the harnessing (and codifying) of Reality, and that is important to remember.

Kain

m1thr0s

10-27-2006, 06:31 PM

I am probably the last person on earth to deny the importance of *guidelines*...but I think we tend to romanticise too much and it's all too easy to imagine that the world is full of secret masters from bygone eras etc. To some extent this is almost certainly true but I think it is also true that we are collectively evolving and piggy-backing off of each other from generation to generation. Knowledge is an evolutionary curve of its own kind and we are intimately bound to its mechanism. It is highly unlikely that humankind has yet to produce a single example of its own collective potential any more than people could really fly until they had finally come to grips with the physics of flight itself. We can imagine all kinds of things and no one can say for sure that these things might not be true...but that's the whole problem...neither can it be confirmed or denied with any real certainty. The future lies in the ahead...that's all we really can be reasonably sure of.

m1thr0s

Luciftias

10-28-2006, 02:46 PM

well...not to be argumentative, but it seems to me you have already done that....I don't believe in the validity of any so-called "pure" practise personally.

Certainly that is true to an extent. However, I do think that there is value in keeping things simple - at least until reaching a certain level of mastery. At that point it would be easier to determine which effects are the result of the new elements. I've chosen to keep things as simple and focused as is reasonably possible in the hopes that I will progress faster in my understanding of the technology of Hermetics and the insights that it's dedicated practice bestows. I don't think I mentioned it before but I'm actually working with other people on this as well, and the majority of them are keeping their core practices essentially within the same Hermetic framework as we understand it collectively and sharing our insights. A couple of the people are quite advanced in their practice and through focusing like this, I feel that I am able to get the most advantage out of having these resources available to me. Of course all of us do, as you point out, come to these things with our varied experiences. Still, I hold to my opinion that there is value in seeing a path out to the point of mastering it before trying to integrate foreign elements. I used to be a real "spiritual tourist", as they say, and never really got too advanced in any of the various technologies that I studied. "Jack of all paths, master of none" to coin a phrase. It was probably the best thing for me at the time, but now I need to focus and follow something through to it's conclusion.

Luciftias

m1thr0s

10-28-2006, 03:00 PM

That's perfectly understandable Luciftias. It's always a little difficult in discussions of this sort to separate yourself out from the picture and just deal in principles and ideas etc on their own merits. In my case, for instance, "spriritual tourism" has evolved into its own path, since I discovered at some point that I actually already knew what I was looking for and there really are no "masters" of it anywhere to be found specifically. It's all in pieces on the ground so I have to pick up those pieces and reassemble them properly. I don't quite understand how this can happen...how anyone can seem to be born with certain answers already, but it does happen and not just my case. I think it actually happens a lot more than people generally acknowledge. So I would at least defend the notion that even spiritual tourism can be a path of its own kind and doesn't have to be shallow just because it has no one specific tradition. Depth is a quality we bring to things, or at least it can be.

m1thr0s

Phoenix

11-02-2006, 09:43 AM

I'll go first. I feel that Alchemy starts out with the quest for longevity/immortality and leads towards the goal of apotheosis.
Luciftias

Gentleman,
Good evening,
Luciftias, if I may i disagree with your statment, alchemy is NOT the quest for longevity/immortality, That is not the direct route, it is a subproduct of the way of the alchemist.
The first rule of alchemy stats that:
"In order to gain something, you have to sacrifice something of the same value".
The "VALUE" stated here is measured in equivelent trade, wherever is measured in time, dedication, hate, love, money, children, it does not mater "what", or "when" only if you payd it or not.

As you all know it is the most simple and chaotic concept ever engenired because it influences everithing, from the smallest worm to the biggest rocket engine ever built.

I advise you to reasearch this topic, because it is indeed worth it.

PS: To answer the inicial question, you cannot say that alchemy starts out with the quest for longevity/immortality or the mistic quest for the secret to turn lead into gold, in those words you show what you do not understand the meaning of alchemy(im not saying that that you dont know, im saying that you may pass that idea of such thought).
The quest in alchemy is in fact the quest for understanding the world around us.

"In order to gain something, you have to sacrifice something of the same value".

Radiant Star

11-02-2006, 10:24 AM

In answer to what sort of alchemy do we do.

Internal alchemy.

The internal aspect is by working with ritual magick and its symbols to stimulate new imaginings with the breaking down of psychological barriers and conscious acceptance of material normally suppressed.

The alchemic aspect is moving with the new material by adding it to the ideas and thought patterns already in the immediately aware part of the mind, thereby changing and assimilating it to become part of the moment to moment consciouscious and accessible memory system, which then itself is transmuted and connects more easily to other hidden worlds within and without the magickian.

Anibis

11-02-2006, 10:30 AM

Gentleman,
Good evening,
Luciftias, if I may i disagree with your statment, alchemy is NOT the quest for longevity/immortality, That is not the direct route, it is a subproduct of the way of the alchemist.
The first rule of alchemy stats that:
"In order to gain something, you have to sacrifice something of the same value".
The "VALUE" stated here is measured in equivelent trade, wherever is measured in time, dedication, hate, love, money, children, it does not mater "what", or "when" only if you payd it or not.

As you all know it is the most simple and chaotic concept ever engenired because it influences everithing, from the smallest worm to the biggest rocket engine ever built.

I advise you to reasearch this topic, because it is indeed worth it.

PS: To answer the inicial question, you cannot say that alchemy starts out with the quest for longevity/immortality or the mistic quest for the secret to turn lead into gold, in those words you show what you do not understand the meaning of alchemy(im not saying that that you dont know, im saying that you may pass that idea of such thought).
The quest in alchemy is in fact the quest for understanding the world around us.

"In order to gain something, you have to sacrifice something of the same value".

I thought the first 'rule' (or principle) of Alchemy was 'That which is above is like that which is below, to accomplish the miracle of the one thing'. Pheonix, please be careful about phrasing things so that they sound like you are claiming 'true opinion' in a way that it directly negates anothers. Just because alchemy starts with the quest for 'understanding the world around us' for you, does not make that an indisputable FACT. In fact, I don't disagree with you, although I would say that your point is one facet of alchemy, and you would be off base to say that Alchemy has not in a VERY big way been about transmuting base substances (Lead into gold) and concoscting elixers (all of which may have been the starting point for some). For some of us, these are spiritual processes, EQUIVALENT to the search for understanding, as well as purification. Before you 'lay down the law', so to speak, consider that what someone might say could well mean more or less the same as you, even though it doesn't appear so on the surface. On the other hand, mabye they mean something totally different and they have a contending view on the subject, but here, it's not as easy as just saying that they are wrong, or implying (even with a qualifier) that they don't know what they are talking about. If you are going to make these sorts of uber-strong statements, you'll need to back up your position a litle bit more solidly. I.e. Where do you get the authority to make such a statement as TRUTH rather than perspective? Who are your sources? What proofs can you bring tobear of your claim? Remember burden of proof is proportionate to strength of claim. If I have misread your post, then I hope you will clarify it. Speaking softly and being able to back up what you say is the best way IMO to address disagreement in these forums. Cheers;
-Ibisis-
For my bit, I'll go as far as to say that alchemy is the art of facilitating transformations, and leave it (for now) at that.

Anibis

11-02-2006, 10:41 AM

Anyone have any thoughts on the 'cup of babalon' as an alchemical vessel? Also could someone here clarify the use of the terms 'Retort', 'Crucible', and 'Athanor'? WHich of these would Abrahadabra be, if it is one of them (I am thinking of the hermetically sealed fields which this formula erects). I find myself using these terms metaphorically, and rather loosely, and would like to be more solid them. I am not a 'lab alchemist' at the moment (Except when I make wine + bread)...
-Ibisis

m1thr0s

11-02-2006, 09:31 PM

I think it's in your court Ibisis...please tell us what you discover.

m1thr0s

Anibis

11-02-2006, 10:27 PM

Okay. Well as for working definitions of Retort, Crucible and Athanor and Alembic, I'll have to do some searching. The cup of Babalon as Crowley understands it is certainly an alchemical vessel. I believe he addresses this specifically in discusion of the Graal in book IV. The idea is that we must pour our whole being, unrestrained-ly into this vessel. Key images in the Thoth tarot include most prominently the card XI Lust, and VII, The chariot. I do not accept the use of XI for Leo, and prefer the symmetrical assignment IIX. Nevertheless the graal symbolism seems to be associated to the number 418, since with Cheth (assigned to the Chariot) and Teth (to Strength, either way you number it) we have the numbers 418 and 419. I think there is an enumeration of the scarlet woman such that she is 667 to the Beast's 666. By somewhat the same reasoning 419 could be related to 418 as the cup+the whore...

This is all mythical imagery, and as we know is contingent upon a whole slew of story telling conventions, so this is a bit of a literary inquiry moreso than a scientific one. but in that vein, we also have Crowely asserting that the whole project of the Cup of Babalon is a kind of Synchretistic wine-making: all the religions of the world, all contradictions, EVERYTHING is held in one space. This is in a sense a radical monism. The abominations, eventually (after a period of heterogeneity) are transformed into vintage wine, or a child, following the symbolism of the graal. This represents a new synthesis of all the various compartmentalized experiences and understandings of 'Man' aften having been 'dumped' into one space. So we are definitely taking about some kind of alchemical chamber, just as a carboy for wine making is such a chamber.

418 itself has properties that we all know are extraordinary. Equally ABRAHADABRA has extrordinary properties. Between the two we have a comprehensive containment strategy.

I suppose the Athanor is the furnace, and the alembic is the protective vessel in which the changes occur, ie: that which is put into the furnace. I think I'd be inclined to suppose that abrahadabra is itself an athanor, since it subjects that which it contains to certain specific pressures in proportion to the skill of the alchemist. The alembic/retort's role (am I using these correctly?) would be to separate the substance and contain it. it would be similar to the Aleph principle (of trancendentally 'unifying' a particular phenomenon as in to term something an 'aleph'). So the act of identifying a state of affairs in particular as such that will be transformed alchemically would be the containment operation: ie retort, and the abrahadabra formula would then operate as athanor. Giving something a name, in a sense is putting it into a retort.

I have heard the 8 directions/trigrams of the I ching "Pa Kua" as a furnace, so that being said, and cosidering the connection to 8 which we can draw both through 'Lust' as IIX and 'Cheth' as 8. Seems to be another angle to take which supports the 418 athanor idea. So there's what I have dredged out of my brain, more to come I suppose...

-Ibisis-

P.S. I think this whole site is a massive athanor...

m1thr0s

11-02-2006, 11:32 PM

great start. let me just post a couple of quick Wiki links for the deeply disturbed. :o_O:
More in-depth info can be found via the Alchemy Website (http://www.alchemywebsite.com/) of course...

• Athanor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanor)
• Crucible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible)
• Alembic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alembic)
• Retort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retort)

Your question thus far is wide open to variant angles of attack. It would be difficult to say for certain that Abrahadabra (or any heuristical construct really) is only either athanor or crucible, for instance, since at the level of its structure it is probably more like crucible while at the level of its action more like athanor...this, I think, would be true of any sufficiently versatile tantric (and/or magickal) matrix...particularly where it comprises both form and function..."standing" and "action" modalities etc...

your memory of the Cup of Babalon is true to my recollection as well...
I believe the proper Roman Numeral for 8 = VIII by the way...just to keep us all honest...

P.S. I think this whole site is a massive athanor...It is if I have anything to say about it :cool:

m1thr0s

Anibis

11-03-2006, 09:55 AM

Thanks for those links. this makes things MUCH clearer. It's funny, I know, but I really have very little knowledge at the moment about the technical side of alchemy. My work has always been related to meditative arrays, Mandalas and such... Anyhow, it's good to be learning.
-Ibisis

m1thr0s

11-03-2006, 11:45 AM

like a lot of things there is a certain rhetoric to be sorted out. once you begin to get on top of that (which can take awhile with "physical" alchemy) it's not so bad. The really dynamic ideas still reside on the "inner" side of the cosmic coin really. We also have to contend with a certain elitism with "physical" alchemists themselves, who typically imagine themselves to be the true heirs to alchemy in total and routinely express open disdain of "inner" or "spiritual" alchemy in general.

There is even a certain justification for this insofar as eurocentric alchemical traditions are concerned. The problem is one of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, which many of them are much too quick to do, failing to recognize that western "spiritual" alchemy has historically suffered from being built upon a very shaky "elemental" foundation, so that there is a technical explanation/solution to its own shortcomings. This is one of the reasons that Mutational Alchemy is so distinctive and such an important thing to emerge. It actually has a complex body of logical "inner elements" to build upon...

m1thr0s

Phoenix

11-03-2006, 09:56 PM

:o

Good evening, i will start from the top

I thought the first 'rule' (or principle) of Alchemy was 'That which is above is like that which is below, to accomplish the miracle of the one thing'. Phoenix, please be careful about phrasing things so that they sound like you are claiming 'true opinion' in a way that it directly negates anothers. Just because alchemy starts with the quest for 'understanding the world around us' for you, does not make that an indisputable FACT.
I belive I owe you an apology, You are absolutely correct when you say that It was the starting point for me.
but let me explain my point of view.( if you thing it´s necessary, this discution could be transfered for a secundary topic.)
I belive i wasn´t clear in my choice of words,
In my belief alchemy is an academy of thought, in wich it is oriented on the principle of oposites.
Let me be more specific, we are talking of a form of reasoning that has become almost extinct over the years, in wich "the curious mind" is lead to search for it´s own answers.Few are the texts that explain actual alchemy, not only the "lab" procedure but also it´s Hermetic truth.
http://www.durenmar.de/malinbois/rules/alchemy.html - Laboratory alchemy (first steps)
Alchemy (for me), it is not a religious path but a form of thoght, similar to martial art philosophy,
The principle "In order to gain something, you have to sacrifice something of the same value", it´s the first "rule" of a form of thought that prepares the mind for the chemist that lives in every al-chemist, but this principle is also backed by it´s hermetic use.
The "rule" that was stated before, "That which is above is like that which is below, to accomplish the miracle of the one thing", is in fact a rule that was adoptad by the alchemic circle due to it´s versatility on the hermetic side but the route of it is in fact "religious",
As above, so below

The Magician displaying the Hermetic concept of "as above, so below." It is thought that the modern Tarot may be based on The Book of Thoth.These words circulate throughout occult and magical circles, and they come from Hermetic texts. The concept was first laid out in The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, in the words "That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above, corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracles of the One Thing."[26]
In accordance with the various levels of reality: physical, mental, and spiritual, this relates that what happens on any level happens on every other. This is however more often used in the sense of the microcosm and the macrocosm. The microcosm is oneself, and the macrocosm is the universe. The macrocosm is as the microcosm, and vice versa; within each lies the other, and through understanding one (usually the microcosm) you can understand the other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism or http://www.galilean-library.org/hermeticism.html
I believe that The alchemist in each one of us will eventualy stand out so I share with you this litle piece of information:
The Four Classical Elements:-
Earth Cold and Dry. Melancholy.
Water Cold and Wet. Phlegmatic.
Air Hot and Wet. Sanguine.
Fire Hot and Dry. Choleric.
The Three Principles:-
Salt. The Contractive force in Nature. Crystallisation, condensation.
Sulphur. The Expansive force in Nature. Dissolution, Evaporation.
Mercury. The Integrative force, interweaving and balancing that of the Salt and Sulphur. Circulation. Dynamic equilibrium.
The human being is the gathering of all this principles, and components.
Ibisis and friends this an opinion of mine and as stated in my signature
"We must love them both, those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it."--ST. THOMAS AQUINAS
It is my opinion on the matter.
For one last statment "I can only show you the door, it is you who as to go through it" - Morpheus in The Matrix
For some of us, these are spiritual processes, EQUIVALENT to the search for understanding, as well as purification.
I agree because these principles are omnipreasent, and are viewed by each individual in a diferent way.
Remember burden of proof is proportionate to strength of claim. If I have misread your post, then I hope you will clarify it. Speaking softly and being able to back up what you say is the best way IMO to address disagreement in these forums
Ibisis i thank you for your straightforwardness. you are correct and I will do my best in the future.
If I may share with you , i have a blog in portuguese (my mother tongue), that has very interesting links on the subject, hope you like it http://legadoalquimista.blogspot.com/2006/07/introducao-historica.html , again i apollogise for my misspelling my english is a bit rusty.
I hope i was clear in my statements.
Thank you for your time.

Luciftias

11-05-2006, 02:32 AM

Luciftias, if I may i disagree with your statment, alchemy is NOT the quest for longevity/immortality, That is not the direct route, it is a subproduct of the way of the alchemist.

I stand by my clarified statement in post 14 of this thread that longevity/immortality and apotheosis are historically the most common starting motivations for someone to get involved in Alchemy. For instance, it was what motivated the development of Taoist Alchemy: to discover and apply a technology towards immortality. Immortality, as well as gold-making, was a very common motivation for Western Alchemists of the middle ages. Even today, I believe it is usually some sort of transformation that the student of alchemy starts out looking for, and I don't think they're looking to transform gold into lead or god into man.

The first rule of alchemy stats that:
"In order to gain something, you have to sacrifice something of the same value".
The "VALUE" stated here is measured in equivelent trade...

As Ibisis has already stated, the whole As Above, So Below thing from the Emerald Tablet is generally understood to be the fundamental axiom of Hermeticism, and therefore of Alchemy. I have probably quoted that line in about half of all my posts on this forum, I think it's so fundamental. I'm curious to see if you can back up your statement with at least a source. I would very much like to know where you got that idea from. The manner in which you explained this law sounds to me like a "new age" extrapolation of the physics Law of Conservation. Actually, if I were to guess, I would say that you got it from a Japanese cartoon/comic called Full Metal Alchemist. Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalent_Exchange
I noticed that the link that you give to back up your viewpoint (http://www.durenmar.de/malinbois/rules/alchemy.html) is actually fictional as well. You're talking about cartoons and fantasy games. I'm talking about real life Alchemy. I've seen the cartoon, and I found it entertaining. I haven't played the fantasy game, but I'm sure there are lots of people out there enjoying it. The fact that it's entertaining doesn't have anything to do with whether or not something is a good source of information on genuine, real life Alchemy.

I advise you to reasearch this topic, because it is indeed worth it.

I have and will continue to research this topic, and indeed I do find it worth the effort. I would in turn advise you to seek out genuine teachings on Alchemy rather than relying on fictional depictions of such.

The quest in alchemy is in fact the quest for understanding the world around us.

Well, I certainly can't disagree with that. Although I will add the suggestion that the value in knowledge comes from making use of it. There is a passage in the Quran that I am reminded of: "The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of the ass carrying books."

Luciftias

m1thr0s

11-05-2006, 05:07 AM

I stand by my clarified statement in post 14 of this thread that longevity/immortality and apotheosis are historically the most common starting motivations for someone to get involved in Alchemy.Yes, this is historically accurate, and, in general, remains the most practical motivations for most.

Perhaps it may help a little to break this down a bit further:

1. Longevity: This is the search for what is optimal in the human condition in general and involves an understanding of proper and improper diet, of proper and improper hygene, proper and improper excercise, medication, work, sexuality, meditation...indeed...proper and improper anything affecting the normal physical and spiritual health of human beings en masse. It is the search for longevity that renders alchemy an effective medical discipline.

2. Immortality: Whereas longevity is a pragmatic science, immortality is not. It is, in fact, a theoretical science. It is, nevertheless, a logical extension of the science of longevity inasmuch as there are certain components in the physical known to be immortal in themselves. Humans are comprised of 97% water...the water does not "die", nor do any of the minerals, nor the "atoms" that bind physical form together and give it specific definition. Only the form of things change while the components themselves remain practically "immortal". It is thus reasonable to assume that a proper understanding of change may ultimately lead us to a proper understanding of non-change as well.

3. Apotheosis: Knowledge is not static, but rather fluid and molecular. It builds upon itself and increases exponentially as it grows. This offers us a certain undeniable evidence of "development" built into the fabric of our human natures, which are uniquely responsive to the ebbs and flows of knowledge. On the opposite side, there is no convincing evidence to show that knowledge ever dissipates. True, it suffers setbacks, but has a remarkable ability to rebound and looking back as far as we can look back, we still see convincing evidence of development across time. No one can identify a set lid to this development...no one can demonstrate that it has any fixed limits per se. If there are no such limits in fact, then it is reasonable to assume that human beings have an unlimited potential for development which would render us "gods" at one point in the timeline relative to even ourselves at another. We have no reason to conclude that this development may not extend all the way to godhead itself at some point.

So...this is just an off-the-cuff sort of breakdown and we really could construct a much more comprehensive packaging of this triad if we took the time to do so. For the moment, I only wish to demonstrate that it is not as trivial as the words themselves might seem. This is a problem with words in general...a semantic battle that rages constantly with terms themselves and how they are used/misused in daily applications.

Lucifitas's basic premise is both sound and valid so far as I can assess it.

m1thr0s

Amur

11-05-2006, 05:29 AM

Try something like death-alchemy, which involves around thinking that you will die today. As you die, a form of surrenderment comes, which in turn gives alot as control is let go of.

They say that Dalai Lama dies 9 times / day. So he's obviously quite good at it :laugh:

m1thr0s

11-05-2006, 05:37 AM

well death-alchemy is really an integrated aspect of alchemy overall...look at the composition of solder for instance...a 40/60 blend of tin/lead...both of which have a much higher melting point than solder! where did the tin go? well...it "died", just as the lead did and was reborn in the form of solder...

death is a well-observed phenomenum in alchemy...

m1thr0s

Anibis

11-05-2006, 09:17 AM

Thank you for clarifying. I think you are on the right track with a number of things you are asserting here. Particularly the idea that Alchemy should be viewed as a technique before it is seen as a belief. The idea of Mutational Alchemy as a martial art has come up quite a few times on this board. I am of the opinion that (at least in the internal sense) the 'Philosopher's stone' is a sort of disposition founded on the mapping of ones consciouness onto geometical structures that enable one to transform, through correct and appropriate response and actions, any one 'thing' into any other. As I mentioned. The art of transformation. It is also my opinion that this forums acts like an alchemical oven, or athanor, presided over by a number of operating alchemists, and what is being 'distilled here' (Amongst other things) is a working, open ended and rigorous discusion of what it means to be an alchemist. I guess that's my way of saying 'don't sweat it' as regards 'owing me an appology or whatever'. All you gotta do around here is stay open, be flexible, and assert the strongest position you can while respecting other peoples. ALso, when you are working in a different language, things are especially challenging. Keep it up though, Respect.
-Ibisis
P.S. Lucifitas. Man, one of these days, I would LOVE to have you give me a Lab alchemy tutorial (Like in a Labratory). You are pro, and that stuff is really interesting, but a bit innacessible for me. So is Genetics the contemporary alchemy that best corresponds to the Mutational approach?

:o

Good evening, i will start from the top

I belive I owe you an apology, You are absolutely correct when you say that It was the starting point for me.
but let me explain my point of view.( if you thing it´s necessary, this discution could be transfered for a secundary topic.)
I belive i wasn´t clear in my choice of words,
In my belief alchemy is an academy of thought, in wich it is oriented on the principle of oposites.
Let me be more specific, we are talking of a form of reasoning that has become almost extinct over the years, in wich "the curious mind" is lead to search for it´s own answers.Few are the texts that explain actual alchemy, not only the "lab" procedure but also it´s Hermetic truth.
http://www.durenmar.de/malinbois/rules/alchemy.html - Laboratory alchemy (first steps)
Alchemy (for me), it is not a religious path but a form of thoght, similar to martial art philosophy,
The principle "In order to gain something, you have to sacrifice something of the same value", it´s the first "rule" of a form of thought that prepares the mind for the chemist that lives in every al-chemist, but this principle is also backed by it´s hermetic use.
The "rule" that was stated before, "That which is above is like that which is below, to accomplish the miracle of the one thing", is in fact a rule that was adoptad by the alchemic circle due to it´s versatility on the hermetic side but the route of it is in fact "religious",

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism or http://www.galilean-library.org/hermeticism.html
I believe that The alchemist in each one of us will eventualy stand out so I share with you this litle piece of information:
The Four Classical Elements:-
Earth Cold and Dry. Melancholy.
Water Cold and Wet. Phlegmatic.
Air Hot and Wet. Sanguine.
Fire Hot and Dry. Choleric.
The Three Principles:-
Salt. The Contractive force in Nature. Crystallisation, condensation.
Sulphur. The Expansive force in Nature. Dissolution, Evaporation.
Mercury. The Integrative force, interweaving and balancing that of the Salt and Sulphur. Circulation. Dynamic equilibrium.
The human being is the gathering of all this principles, and components.
Ibisis and friends this an opinion of mine and as stated in my signature
"We must love them both, those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it."--ST. THOMAS AQUINAS
It is my opinion on the matter.
For one last statment "I can only show you the door, it is you who as to go through it" - Morpheus in The Matrix

I agree because these principles are omnipreasent, and are viewed by each individual in a diferent way.

Ibisis i thank you for your straightforwardness. you are correct and I will do my best in the future.
If I may share with you , i have a blog in portuguese (my mother tongue), that has very interesting links on the subject, hope you like it http://legadoalquimista.blogspot.com/2006/07/introducao-historica.html , again i apollogise for my misspelling my english is a bit rusty.
I hope i was clear in my statements.
Thank you for your time.

Phoenix

11-05-2006, 10:57 PM

:o_O:
Hello again,

As Ibisis has already stated, the whole As Above, So Below thing from the Emerald Tablet is generally understood to be the fundamental axiom of Hermeticism, and therefore of Alchemy. I have probably quoted that line in about half of all my posts on this forum, I think it's so fundamental. I'm curious to see if you can back up your statement with at least a source.
I would very much like to know where you got that idea from.
I believe that even you wouldn´t disagree that the Emerald Tablet cannot be "the" only Truth just because the origin of this mysterious text is shrouded in antiquity, David Hume asserted that it was impossible to know that certain laws of cause and effect always apply - no matter how many times one observes them occurring. Just because the sun has risen every day since the beginning of the Earth does not mean that it will rise again tomorrow. However; it is impossible to go about one's life without assuming such connections, and the best that we can do is to maintain an open mind and never presume that we know any laws of causality for certain. This analysis was used as an argument against metaphysics, ideology and attempts to find theories for everything. A.J. Ayer and Karl Popper both claimed that their respective principles of verification and falsifiability fitted Hume's ideas on causality.
I am a suporter of the theory of oposites, based on the "Yin and Yang philosophy" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang, therefore i believe that everything has its opposite—although this is never absolute, only relative. No one thing is completely Yin or completely Yang. Each contains the seed of its opposite. "That which is above is like that which is below", so i gave alot of thought throught this and realised that the best way to keep myself "unbond" to any theory was to in some way prove it´s fundation, i understand it´s message and it´s point of view, but i need more.
I dont take for granted something that could be missinterpretated for some reason, so i need to find it´s source.
Does any of you can explain why the Emerald Tablet isn´t simply an instruction book for actual chemistry?
I have seen thousands of investigations over the internet on this subject, from simbolism to hermetic philosophy, and i haven´t found anything that you can actually say that makes sence.
That is why i like your aproach on these forums you present "profs" or at least defend them.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/index.htm
The ZEN budism ( based on the philosophy of Taoism )
Arai, Yûsei
Shingon Esoteric Buddhism: A Handbook for Followers
Translated by Dr. George Tanabe, Rev. Seichô Asahi, rev. Shoken (Ana) Harada; Editing and adaptation by Rev. Eijun (Bill) Edison.
Fresno: Shingon Buddhist International Institute, 1997

The manner in which you explained this law sounds to me like a "new age" extrapolation of the physics Law of Conservation.
I noticed that the link that you give to back up your viewpoint is actually fictional as well. You're talking about cartoons and fantasy games.
You would be amazed of i have learned in what you called "cartoons and fantasy games", they were in a way my starting point, they planted the need to investigate, in the core of my mind. Some people started with a simple TV series others from a magazine or even a book that someone lend them.
I'm talking about real life Alchemy.
I have and will continue to research this topic, and indeed I do find it worth the effort. I would in turn advise you to seek out genuine teachings on Alchemy rather than relying on fictional depictions of such.
But by understanding "fictional depictions of such" i can in the future separate the real from the imaginary as you did even in this post.
Well, I certainly can't disagree with that. Although I will add the suggestion that the value in knowledge comes from making use of it. There is a passage in the Quran that I am reminded of: "The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of the ass carrying books."
Even if it is a "new age" extrapolation of the physics Law of Conservation, it was the door i crossed to real alchemy, and that comes from within.
My background is in fact the philosophy of Ka-ra-tê, Shito-ryu, everything after it was studied to the limit.
Do not question my method, i posted before that i have a blog on alchemy, it´s true and you will find usefull information reguarding the theme alchemy from a investigator´s point of view, i select the material from it´s historical acuracy.
I do not in any way try to force you to bealive me, i just intent to clear my own doubts throught any means possible, in this case throught you.
Luciftias, and m1thr0s i respect your knowledge on the matter
but belive it or not it actually follow the principle of equivelent trade
"In order to gain something, you have to sacrifice something of the same value".
The "VALUE" stated here is measured in equivalent trade...
You know why?
Because that was the sum of all my research, and because it was thought to me by karate itself...
I apollogise for any kind of inconvenience and i truly admire the thoughts you share with the rest of us, you are more experienced and have already gone throught my "awakening" so you understand.
Thank you for your time...
PS: I am not in any way a beliver in any kind of religious thinking, but i understand the concept known as faith.

Luciftias

11-06-2006, 11:00 AM

I believe that even you wouldn´t disagree that the Emerald Tablet cannot be "the" only Truth just because the origin of this mysterious text is shrouded in antiquity...

That's right. I'm not trying to imply that the Emerald Tablet or any other text for that matter, contains any sort of absolute universal truth. It is more like a key; a very useful method of investigating the hidden mysteries of nature and science. Because it is so useful and has yeilded results for many, it has become popular. It's been around for a very long time and has influenced not only Western Alchemy, but Western metaphysics in general. I personally find it very useful. Particularly in giving me a useful perspective from which to read the "book of nature."

Does any of you can explain why the Emerald Tablet isn´t simply an instruction book for actual chemistry?Chemistry and Alchemy, while having many things in common, are not the same thing. But that being said, I don't claim that the Emerald Tablet is a scripture. It is simply a document that has proven it's usefulness over many generations.

You would be amazed of i have learned in what you called "cartoons and fantasy games", they were in a way my starting point, they planted the need to investigate, in the core of my mind. Some people started with a simple TV series others from a magazine or even a book that someone lend them.Certainly, many people have had their interest sparked by works of fiction, and certainly most works of fiction are themselves inspired by non-fiction (other literature or direct experience). I'm not saying that there is no value in them. I'm simply saying that you should not rely on fictional works for your information. To start, you should check out the genuine, real-world stuff that inspired these fictional works (that is, if the writer didn't just make it up whole cloth.) And even then, as I'm sure you already know, you should test out works presented as factual before putting too much stock in it. Alchemy, for instance, has had it's fair share of frauds.

Luciftias

Phoenix

11-06-2006, 08:16 PM

Certainly, many people have had their interest sparked by works of fiction, and certainly most works of fiction are themselves inspired by non-fiction (other literature or direct experience). I'm not saying that there is no value in them. I'm simply saying that you should not rely on fictional works for your information. To start, you should check out the genuine, real-world stuff that inspired these fictional works (that is, if the writer didn't just make it up whole cloth.) And even then, as I'm sure you already know, you should test out works presented as factual before putting too much stock in it. Alchemy, for instance, has had it's fair share of frauds.
Luciftias

Endeed, I will try to become more methodical in my expositions.
I thank you for your care in this matter.

m1thr0s

11-06-2006, 10:30 PM

Alchemy, for instance, has had it's fair share of frauds.what hasn't? It's sort of amazing to me that alchemy's frauds get so much attention.
I always sort of want to know...as opposed to what?

Nevertheless, it is true of course....

m1thr0s

Luciftias

11-08-2006, 04:35 PM

P.S. Lucifitas. Man, one of these days, I would LOVE to have you give me a Lab alchemy tutorial (Like in a Labratory). You are pro, and that stuff is really interesting, but a bit innacessible for me. So is Genetics the contemporary alchemy that best corresponds to the Mutational approach?

Sure! If you're ever going to be in my area, let me know. I'll have you over and give you a really decent intro to the lab work. Me a pro? haha. I'm still a beginner, for sure. Progress in Alchemy is measured in years and sometimes even in decades. While my progress has been relatively slow, even compared to my peers, what I know is quite solid and I could definitely give you a good run down of the alchemical process as it's applied to the Vegetable kingdom, the standard starting point for lab work. I could show you how to set up a lab, get you to assist in a few various proceedures, etc... Unfortunately I can't do this stuff full-time, as I am not independently wealthy and the nature of my employement doesn't allow for me to do lab work while earning an income. Either of those things are the stuff dreams are made of. haha. Another factor slowing me down is that I haven't managed to establish a disciplined routine for getting the most use out of my personal time yet. Currently I just plug away at something when I manage to scrounge the time and energy. Part of this is lack of organization and part is just plain lazyness.

Luciftias

P.S. m1thr0s:
I did only say that alchemy has had it's fair share of frauds. I didn't say that it had more than it's fair share. haha. I honestly wasn't trying to spotlight alchemy in particular as being lousy with fraud. It just happened to be the current subject matter.

m1thr0s

11-08-2006, 05:06 PM

Oh I know Luciftias...mine was just a knee-jerk response to the stereotype...I didn't think you meant anything special by it...it's natural for alchemists to use alchemy as an example...;)

m1thr0s

Anibis

11-08-2006, 06:02 PM

Currently I just plug away at something when I manage to scrounge the time and energy. Part of this is lack of organization and part is just plain lazyness.

Man, these two factors are the lead in my crucible at the moment... I'll be in the Kitchener Waterloo area in June, and I forget wherebout you are exactly, but Heck, Ontario is Ontario from a Newfoundlander's perspective, so I may even plan a detour...
-Ibisis

Phoenix

11-22-2006, 10:55 AM

Ill take the chance, to ask if any of you come to portugal give me a ring i can show you the alot of the downtown lisbon that the average man doesn´t even look.
If you want Lucifitas, you could even give me a few pointers if you ever come here I am open to sugestions...

feranaja

12-09-2006, 10:35 AM

While I admit you brainiacs are making me a little nervous (in a good way) I'll still venture in and offer a very simplistic reply to the original post.

I consider a lot of what I do alchemy, probably in my naive understanding of the term. I've spent most of my life involved in some sort of spiritual alchemy, haivng undergone both a Rogerian ( 7 year) and a Jungian ( ongoing) analysis, both with spectacular results in terms of growth and inisght: done a whole lot of plain old counseling - work on a conscious level - and also trained in Wicca for many years and then self trained in Golden Dawn magic.... lots more including intense Tarot and nature study, but this isn't a personal bio thread...my point is, the Innerwork I've devoted most of my life to is what I consider alchemy, and it's never ending, just poses new challenges as soon as you've mastered or moved on from one level..

The second place in which I'm living an alchemical life is with regards to my health. As I've said elsewhere, I've managed to transform myself on that plane from a very unwell individual to someone with biomarkers at least 12 years younger than my chronological age, and who has stamina and capability far beyond what I had 20 years ago. The field of health and life extension totally fascinates me., and there is so much to do, I need more time, a lot more time...

The third area is this; Through the process of working with and studying herbalism TTouch and nutrition,I'm grounding my personal gnosis in my work and getting paid for sharing and expanding on it all. So these three things form a triumvirate of love, work and knowledge that I consider alchemical.

Or maybe I'm just way out of my depth here...:)

feranaja

Logos

12-19-2006, 05:48 AM

I work with analogies as a means to regulate cognition and thereby transmute perception--namely, mine, but sometimes other people's, as well. On the surface, what I do seems no different than writing and speaking, but my methodology is entirely grounded in Renaissance alchemical/magical use of analogy. In short, I practice the art and science of constructing and wielding analogies like, for example, the one in my signature, which is a squared analogy. To clarify, squared analogies are analogies comprised of analogies and cubed analogies are analogies comprised of analogies comprised of analogies. So, an analogy has four parts, a squared analogy has sixteen parts, and a cubed analogy has sixty-four parts, and then you get two-hundred fifty-six parts, and so on. I suppose I'm mostly interested in how relationships give rise to meaning and how altering relationships in subtle ways profoundly affects meaning. What I do is intimately connected to Renaissance alchemical/magical approaches to correspondence systems.

v/s/s/v

Amur

12-19-2006, 03:58 PM

If we think about some of our personality aspects as dimensional puzzle-bits. Then we could say that by synchronizing them and turning them all into the correct aspect they would resonate with each other, making each other stronger. This again would unify the whole being and empower it.

Sometimes to unravel a piece it seems necessary to go through a life-lesson to learn about a matter.

Find an aspect -> Refine the aspect to something more efficient and something more in tune with yourself/your body/your higher self -> repeat the loop with another aspect

Son of Mr. Gordo

12-19-2006, 05:17 PM

Logos

12-19-2006, 05:40 PM

From Athanasius Kircher's (1601-1680)correspondence chart entitled, "Harmonia Mundi Sympathica, 10 Enneachordis totius natura Symphoniam exhibens."

[(Saturn : lead :: lead : topaz) : (topaz : hellebore :: hellebore : cypress) :: (cypress : tunny :: tunny : bittern) : (bittern : bear :: bear : black)] = that funny lower-case h looking symbol for Saturn we all know and love.

So basically every alchemical symbol is an analogy in that it is a symbol that embodies an analogical set of correspondences.

Here's an eight-part analogy from a story I'm writing:

First, a bit of context: John is a doctor. Jane, his patient, just tricked him into upping her dosage. And now that her appointment is over and she's gone, his gut is telling him something went wrong.

John had a feeling he could not pin down.

While fluttering butterflies spinning on pins put in place by lepidopterists would have tickled his memory, reminding him of addicts he had treated in the past, his feeling left him feeling out of touch: he had not seen a butterfly in years, and yet he felt as if he let one slip away.

He could have charged a favor for a favor.

“Too late now.”
(John : Jane :: John : feeling :: dealer : addict :: lepidopterist : butterfly)
In other words, the former aims to pin down the latter.

Because the relationships defined by analogies profoundly affect meaning, I'm able to create extremely complex characters and cover a lot of distance in very short periods of time. The section you just read is one part in a sixteen-part analogy, so the whole chapter, to which that analogy belongs, is one big analogy comprised of little analogy sections.

I really ought to just start a whole new thread on this. It starts getting a little complicated once you say something like, "I'm going to transmute lead into gold."

v/s/s/v