No horrible hell

[Krafkar]

It seems that we often confuse the matters of absolute good or evil in Heathenism with the Christian teachings, but things are a little different in the Norse lore. In the ancient pagan religions, death was seen as a symbol of prosperity and pureness. While, in the Christian conception it’s something bad to be afraid of.

Hel isn't a place for eternal punishment; it’s a place where souls are purged and cleansed. Souls aren't kept forever in the halls of Hel, it doesn't have sense. A human is soul is charged with energy, and this energy need to flow again through the nine worlds. There is no way a soul can be stuck for eternity; it cut the flow of energy among the nine worlds. A sinner in the Norse lore was taken to Hel to be purified, in this purification the individual lost all his wisdom and honour. He wasn't tortured, just cleansed. It might hurt, but it wasn’t eternal. After this purification the soul was given again to other living being to live again. I see the Norse mission of finding the divine wisdom as the key to enter to Asgard, someone that doesn’t have the wisdom or honour need to pass to Hel to start all over again.

So, my point is there can’t be an eternal punishment. It would create a unbalance between the nine worlds, energy must keep flowing. There can’t be more energy in Hel than the other worlds, our souls and energies are recycled all over until we reach a divine wisdom; through honour, renown or discovery.

This how I explain my friend my thoughts of afterlife, pretty reasonable, right?

My theory is made upon my knowledge of the workings of the Wyrd and Olog.Also, what I have learned by studying the runes its working and how their energies flow through the nine worlds. It’s reasonable for me; what you think friends?

Note: I really enjoy to debate with you folks, here is a nice post as a demonstration of my gratitude. I have learn a lot in the past months ,i want to share my wisdom with you.

[Talkingfox]

Absolutely reasonable.

The whole concept of the after life punishment spheres (Nastrond f'rinstance) were later additions by the monks who transcribed Norse myth as was the idea of the shiny happy heavenly spheres. There's even theories amongst many Nordic scholars that point to the Ragnarok thing , at least as written in the Eddas , as a Christian import.

[m1thr0s]

*Hell is for Children* (I can't remember the songwriter on that one)...

I think your assessment makes good sense. I do wonder sometimes if some psyches might not ultimately have to be dismantled all the way down to the subatomic level just in order to get to anything worth reclaiming. But I am reminded that the Universe wastes nothing so far as we know and it would be a tremendous waste to have all that energy locked inside some sort of torture box indefinitely.

Not a very efficient use of resources. If that's the best *god* can do, the law of supply and demand will put his antiquated ass right out of business.

m1

[visceral/spagyrica]

This reminds me of an argument I somehow conjured up when I was 15 and first felt a strong urge to put authority in its place.

Let's say two people meet, marry, till death do they part, they're soul-mates, and every fiber of their unified being testifies to the fact that they will be together forever even in death.

Let's say the one leads the kind of life that epitomizes the Christian way of life: this person upheld ever commandment, forgave, repented, and sacrificed every step of the way.

The other, on the other hand, did not. The other murdered, raped, stole, cheated, lied, and laughed about it every step of the way.

For the sake of argument, let's say these two were soul-mates: they were meant to be together in every sense of the word "together." They knew each other's flaws back-to-front, yet accepted each other for who they were.

They die.

The one approaches the Gates of Heaven, chats with Gabriel, is allowed to enter and, upon entering Heaven, realizes the other is nowhere to be found. The other is in Hell, suffering the kind of punishment that fits the crimes for which the other is more than guilty.

For the eternally good-hearted person worthy of Heaven, what good is Heaven if the one soul he/she wants to spend eternity with isn't there?

In other words, let's say Heaven, for this good-natured person, is defined by the opportunity to spend eternity with someone who deserves to burn in Hell.

Would not Heaven amount to nothing more than Hell?

If being in Heaven means being without the one person who defines Heaven for you, what good is Heaven?

As it follows...

What good is Hell?

-Logos

[Octarine Prince]

"'Til death do you part." The "social contract" with the other person is terminated.

But the points of your example are interesting, and do illustrate the illogical nature of the Hell described by many religions.

[visceral/spagyrica]

Distinguish between "social contract" and "spiritual contract."

-Logos

[Octarine Prince]

Distinguish between "social contract" and "spiritual contract."

-Logos

In marriage (at least in the two religions I have been a part of), they are commingled in a marriage. Both aspects coexist, but the spiritual component is weighted FAR more heavy.

So, in reference to my post, the spiritual contract is ended as well. I would imagine some people would renew in the afterlife, if given the opportunity, just as some in this life remarry, or symbolically renew their vows.

[Krafkar]

Hail

I believe that there have been a misunderstood here. Im Heathen, i often discuss this kind of things with other heathens. So, i don't believe in the Christian ways. It took me a while to tear apart my Christian teachings that have influenced me since young to see the world with pagan eyes. Just taking in mind how natures flows and its workings.

I wrote this long time ago, i hope it helps to understand what I think of morality.

Loki , does he is good or evil?

Enjoy my friends, this are my thought to erase the occidental thinking of good and evil, Satan and God originated from Christianism.

Lets remember that the Eddas where edited by Christians, see this information that i found on morality. I found this information while researching on my moral dilemma, if my sense of morality is Christian or not. I consider myself Nihilist, whatever the causes are justified anything can be accepted.

Moral skepticism denotes a class of metaethical theories all members of which entail that no one has any moral knowledge. Many moral skeptics also make the stronger, modal, claim that moral knowledge is impossible. Moral skepticism is particularly opposed to moral realism: the view that there are knowable, mind-independent moral truths.

Moral nihilism also known as ethical nihilism, is the meta-ethical view that nothing is moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is not inherently right or wrong. This view can lead to amoralism.

Moral nihilists in history

"The philosophy of Niccolò Machiavelli is sometimes presented as a model of moral nihilism, but that is highly questionable. His book Il Principe (The Prince) was silent on moral matters, which shocked a European tradition that throughout the Middle Ages had inculcated moral lessons in its political philosophies. But silence about morality is not tantamount to outright nihilism. Machiavelli does say that the Prince must override moral reasons in favour of power-maintaining reasons of State, but he also says, particularly in his other works, that the successful ruler should be guided by Pagan, rather than Christian, virtues. "

Note:Nice, i always have thought the same.

Amoralism is the complete disbelief in any sort of morality or ethical code, instead insisting that each person should live his or her life in the most pleasurable manner. Though often associated with Immoralism, the two are fundamentally different. Immoralism is a system that does not accept moral principles and directly opposes morality, while Amoralism does not consider the existence of morality plausible, but does not necessarily oppose its ideology.

Amoralism and meta-ethics

Amoralism is generally considered a manifestation of moral nihilism, an aspect of moral skepticism. Amoralism is unique in the regard that it has basically no active belief. Unlike moral nihilism which has an emphasis on the nature of morality and whether or not it is credible, Amoralism does not make such judgments, rather it leaves these decisions to the human to decide.

Note: Jackpot! It could explained better the pagan life style, in the Norse lore this is the relation we got with our God/dness.

Criticism

"Christianity, Judaism and Islam fervently disapprove of Amoralism. Some different sects of Judaism and Christianity share perspective with the values of Amoralism."

Note: A prof why the Eddas are edited.

Amorality and Immorality

Amorality is distinct from immorality, although in common use the terms are often conflated. An Amoral person denies the existence of morality, whereas an immoral person believes in the existence of morality but chooses not to comply with it. An immoral person who violates a certain moral code may still believe in the underlying truth of that moral code. For example, a thief may not deny that stealing is immoral, but may attempt to deflect the blame or offer excuses in order to justify his or her actions.

My conclusion

Loki can be considered as a moral skepticism, the pranks are a way to prove that there aren't laws , morals or a higher true. What i mean is that he isnt afraid of going to hell as a Christian for behaving irresponsible all his life. Loki knows that there is no higher power , human or god with a 100% moral life. This if we are talking that his actions where skeptic to prove that there is no a higher power.

Also, Loki can be considered a moral nihilism. The murder of Baldur wasnt wrong or correct, just a necessary action to bring the Ragnarok in order to purify and cast away corruption from the world. Loki is Odin is accomplice, lets remember that Odin knew that Baldur and Hodr its deaths where necessary for the creation of the new world after the Ragnarok.

In the original Eddas before the Christians came, i don't doubt that they contained amoral things. Our forefathers didn't believe in Moral absolutism in which actions are completely good or wrong, black or white. For them the world was Grey and amoral, the actions and aims for their actions didn't where based on moral issues ;only in their needs. So, the Christians translator saw Loki as an opportunity to apply morality in the Eddas, being the most irresponsible and "evil" of all the gods he was victim of being Satanized by Christians.

You might ask where is the sense of justice? Is easy, when an action isn't justified by a cause there would be justice. For example, to back stab a person you have never meet before, neither got a problem with doesn't justify the cause. Then there would be justice. Justice is really important to heathens, Forsetii is our patron on it.

Edit:7/27/2009 I edited out my comment, and i forgot to add the links. You can find this on Wikipedia.

[Talkingfox]

We've actually been over most of this Krafkar, in this (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1136) thread and this (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=2979) one as well as this (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1140) one.

The points that you've outlined in your previous few posts are likely to be inflammatory to literalists ....and they abound not only in Christianity but in Modern Heathenism as well.
Personally I don't think any of this is controversial to any sort of person capable of analytical thought or even thinking for themselves.


And oh yeah...please don't lecture me about what I can and can't fucking post. Believe it or not there are parallels worldwide to damned near everything Heathen...and if finding a parallel helps the light in someones attic go on when it comes to heathen stuff , well cool beans.

[m1thr0s]

By the way, let remember this thread is in the Heathen section. Dont mix up with other faiths its thoughts, and be tolerant with our ideals.this cuts both ways Krafkar. When you post something in open forum, people are free to respond from their own perspectives, including christian, buddhist, atheist, skeptic, whatever... even if you are principally intending to address heathenism. So be aware of that please and excercise the same *tolerance* you would expect of others.

also - when quoting from other sources, it is required that you give credit to those sources by providing either a link or the book title and author's name. If the material you are citing is copyright protected you may in some cases have to get the author's permission to post their words. Most authors won't care so much so long as they get proper credit for their work which a link or proper citation will usually suffice.

failure to do this potentially puts this site at risk so it is a serious matter and you can be banned if you do not cooperate with this rule...this is not just aimed at you but goes for anyone posting here at AF.

thanks,

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

Hail
... snip
I wrote this long time ago, i hope it helps to understand what I think of morality.

Loki , does he is good or evil?
snip ...
...snip
Moral skepticism [ripped from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_skepticism]

Moral nihilism [ripped from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_nihilism]

Amoralism [ripped from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoralism]

My conclusion [not sure whether these are your words or not, in light of your failure to credit the work of others, and then claim it as your own]


After you foist off your plagiarism you then take to yelling at others in the thread who are having quite a lively discussion:



By the way, let remember this thread is in the Heathen section. Dont mix up with other faiths its thoughts, and be tolerant with our ideals. If i have offended someone let me know by private messenger. Try to post the more related to the topic, it havent happened yet but it will. This topic is really controversial, but be tolerant and remember that its a different point of view. ; )


My problems with this:


Plagiarism is never ok - taking credit for the work of others is dishonest and dishonorable
You have no right to say who can post what where, as well as I have no right to do so. If you feel the thread is devolving away from the point you can point that out gently without trying to be the king of the thread.

And if you think the idea of the Heathenism forum (or any other forum on this site) is to be insular and single-focused you are missing the entire point of the site.

[Amur]

ALL YOUR HELLS ARE BELONG TO US :laugh:

Seriously you people have no idea how many spirits I've met who've resided in somekind of hell, including myself lol, I'm still trying to research the causes to it but pretty much it seems that this shit has been dictated all throughout the planet on an energetical level, which is a shame, as I think there'd had been much more evolution if there weren't this shit all around and makes it more hard to dig indigenous vibes...

[visceral/spagyrica]

Well, I was specifically referring to the mythological Hell of fire and brimstone--a location in time where your soul burns for eternity.

The kind of Hell you're talking about, Amur, is not one of eternal damnation. So much as a slight change in life-style can help one resurface from that kind of Hell.

So much easier to get stuck in a pattern that keeps you there, though.

-Logos

[visceral/spagyrica]

In marriage (at least in the two religions I have been a part of), they are commingled in a marriage. Both aspects coexist, but the spiritual component is weighted FAR more heavy.

So, in reference to my post, the spiritual contract is ended as well. I would imagine some people would renew in the afterlife, if given the opportunity, just as some in this life remarry, or symbolically renew their vows.
I see what you're saying.

Thanks!

-Logos

[Talkingfox]

Well, I was specifically referring to the mythological Hell of fire and brimstone--a location in time where your soul burns for eternity.


-Logos

Okies..since we're in the Heathenism threads I'm going to look at this from a Heathen standpoint. The 'fire and brimstone for eternity' model does not exist in the Nordic worldview before the writings of Sturlsson in the Prose Edda. And even there the 'eternal punishment' model isn't applied to Hel at all, rather to the sphere of Nastrond, so invented as to at least echo xtian dogma in function, if not ambient temperature.

Helheim (Hel's Home) actually sits on the brink of the movement of time, spanning the gap between time/space as we know it in application and the utter frozen immobility of Neifelheim.

Helheim is more of a cold storage where there is awareness of time, yet time itself doesn't move. It's also where the seed of the perfected self is held in waiting to be released when all the unessecary bullshit is burned away (ie the Baldur Myth)

The vibe is totally neutral and impartial. And very very quiet.

[Amur]

Well, I was specifically referring to the mythological Hell of fire and brimstone--a location in time where your soul burns for eternity.

The kind of Hell you're talking about, Amur, is not one of eternal damnation. So much as a slight change in life-style can help one resurface from that kind of Hell.

So much easier to get stuck in a pattern that keeps you there, though.

-Logos

Well I wasn't mainly talking about myself but mostly about the spirits I encountered. Mostly hellish states can be compared to traumas or because of collective judgements but still it's all very fixable...

[izi]

Helheim (Hel's Home) actually sits on the brink of the movement of time, spanning the gap between time/space as we know it in application and the utter frozen immobility of Neifelheim.

Oh yeah I saw that Neifelheim place when I was concentrating on the opposite of I.'.I.'.I.'.I

[Saxarba]

Hell of fire and brimstone

I've been to that place. Its not pleasant. When the soul visits that place there is no conception of time, no conception of when it will end. It just goes on and on. Its all you know. Even if its just for a "moment". But there is really no difference between a moment and an eternity as far as Time itself is concerned. Time = perception.

The idea that it is endless is just a failure to see properly. All of the eternal damnation xian folk are probably hell realm beings themselves, or at least spent a lot of time there. Lets get off their backs. They're actually quite powerless.

In a universe of infinite players, the game is a battle of perception. Refuting hell merely gets you purgatory. Or can just drop the whole thing and create heaven.

Sax

[m1thr0s]

Oh yeah I saw that Neifelheim place when I was concentrating on the opposite of I.'.I.'.I.'.ITalkingfox and I have discussed this a bit.

Technically, we can assign an alchemical formula to this realm which would be H.'.H.'.H.'.H but I have to tell you that even the concept sends chills up and down my back...we are talking about no movement here at all...not a whisper, not a breeze...completely frozen nothing, save only that it is still technically manifest universe...

From the perspective of the Tree of Life in general, either of these realms are completely inaccessible to human beings. We would be torn to ribbons on either end. Supernal Beings could nevertheless inhabit them having ascended over material death and the second death in Daath, which we might call a *psychic death* in many respects. Supernal Beings are more than gods...they are as near to Nothing as one can get, rooted in Akasha and not in the four elemental continuum. For these, these realms are potentially accessible...for the rest of us, it's only really an impression we can neither really understand or have any hope of inhabiting.

m1

[Amur]

Talkingfox and I have discussed this a bit.
Technically, we can assign an alchemical formula to this realm which would be H.'.H.'.H.'.H but I have to tell you that even the concept sends chills up and down my back...we are talking about no movement here at all...not a whisper, not a breeze...completely frozen nothing, save only that it is still technically manifest universe...

m1

Ironically that is the energy signature I get from older churches and think that people are following that vibe... Now that is scary...

[Talkingfox]

here's a Hel Mask I made a few years back...

[Amur]

here's a Hel Mask I made a few years back...

Hehe I have my own :laugh: Pretty cool looking those :)

[Talkingfox]

Thanks Amur!
The photo really doesn't do the piece justice I'm afraid. The color actually looked almost internally lit....like glacier ice.

[Krafkar]

Is time to clean my renown.

I must apologize that i forgot to add the links to the post i made, i copied it and pasted it here from this site.

Here is the prof: http://odinbrotherhood.freeforums.org/do-not-hate-loki-t916.html

Im Garmr by the way.It wasn't my intention to take credit of other its work, my mistake.

I'm no moderator, sorry for trying to be one. My mistake, lesson learned. I would let you do your work guys. I have experience in other forums where heathens bash the Christians ways, I try to be as polite as possible with other people. But its seems that my words where misunderstood.

I wrote this:

Seat your guest fire near,
give him meat and mead,
Drunken he would burn himself ,
bad renown the host will earn.

Even by being courteous and polite people get offended

Note: By the way,you could send me private message, instead of bashing me publicly. I could edited or added the links, i don't see any reason to make it public. Its dishonorable,and more when you don't even know my intentions. It was my mistake, i accept it. But still there aren't any justification to bash me on this tread, its only add worthless information and pollutes the thread. I expect this to be resolved, please PRIVATE MESSAGE ME!

I will erase this after you read it.

[m1thr0s]

We appreciate your cooperation Krafkar.
When we stop learning, we die...
I don't know about you but I'd rather keep on learning for awhile yet!

m1