How to make sygils? [Archive] - Abrahadabra Forums

m1thr0s

10-29-2006, 12:12 AM

You need to Google more of this stuff Oroc and then report back here with specific sorts of questions. I realize you are in Portugal and resources may be more limited than other places, but still...you need to get more accustomed to putting forth more of an effort to begin with. Rather than just saying "how can I do this?", try to answer that question on your own dime first and then come here when you really get stuck on something specific...

The problem is...there is no way to fill a leaky cup with good wine and if you know nothing at all and have done nothing at all it is going to be very difficult for anybody to give you answers that make any difference at all...

Sorry if that seems harsh...I am saying what needs to be said...you have to begin by participating in your own education, not just asking questions and waiting for the answers you like. That would seem to make sense for many other things but magick is not like money and you have to become things moreso than aquiring them...

No matter how you set about to charge a sigil...if you have no charge to impart...what's the point? Don't get the wrong idea Oroc...you are very welcome here. I am 53 years old my friend and have studied this stuff my whole life. I am giving you an assignment. You would do well to take my advice on this.

m1thr0s

Kain

10-29-2006, 08:15 AM

Very good advice put forth by all I think. Also, to get you started, you may want to check Liber MMM at the Chaos Magick sticky Oroc.

Kain

Oroc

10-30-2006, 08:46 PM

You've benn all very kind by answering this noob question for me...Thank u all.;)
m1thr0s I really appreciate your advice for it is full of good sense. I can't deny how full of sense u r...I will do my best to find my own answers and when I have a more specific question I'll ask for your advice.

About sygils again: I read Phil Hine's "Owen-Ready..." and others, also Liber MMM, and other Chaos litterature I've found. Knowing that I should had a clear intent of what I wanted to "paste" in the sygil I reallized I should know myself better and should also clear my mind...So I understood that I should I first work my Mind and Will...so I now turned to a Hatha Yoga book and I'm praticing it. That is my path now...

Sygils again: I have now a doubt about charging it: picturing it in my Minds eye in a "Gnosis" moment is enough or must it be drawn in the "real world"?
I think that if the "Idea" is already in my subconscious Mind it is not necessary to draw it. But I really wanted to know it. I'm not absolutely confident that I understood the mechanics of Sygils...

Tkx

Oroc

Marcus_

10-30-2006, 09:25 PM

When I use sigils, I get really relaxed, and then pour as much of my active will as possible, into the sigil. The sigil just helps the process go faster and easier, for me.

[&] Once a person "gets usedto it", they can combine "sacred geometry" with sigil crafting, to get even more precise/powerful results.

[edit]
Also, if you psychicly program a sigil enough, in a special way, it will basically do the processing for you, and all you have to do is focus in giving it the energy for the work. So it's not as hard on the brain to use it all at once. More like psionics than usual ChaosMagick, maybe...

m1thr0s

10-31-2006, 06:09 AM

I will keep an eye out for books to recommend to you Oroc, particularly on sigils. It may seem strange to you that I don't already have a long list of books to recommend but the truth is that there is yet to emerge a really comprehensive central book on the subject that I am aware of. Rather, you wind up having to piece it all together from a variety of sources, or at least I did. It's possible that there are books out that I am not aware of however...there are a LOT more sources available than there used to be years ago when I was beginning to put this all together...

I think that your most reliable foundation to sigils still lies in a combined understanding of (1) mathematical "magical squares" (2) mantrayama (or the ritual applications of sounds) and (3) yantrayama (or the ritual applications of symbols), also sometimes simply referred to as "sacred geometry" etc...

From a tantric standpoint, you will want to pay close attention to the idea of unicursal symbols...these are symbols drawn with one continuous line whose beginning and endpoints are the same and which can be started and stopped from any coordinate point. Symbols which "move", or "weave" well in opposite directions are an important key to "charging" things...and it is also important to understand that anything can be charged in this way...a glass of water...a rock...a car...anything at all. The reason we turn to special objects is mainly that they are typically created specifically to receive a charge but in practical application, any object can be charged, once you understand the basics of charging something to begin with.

In its most basic form, a sigil is really a meditation or spell of some kind, carved into some sort of logical shape so that it can be easily remembered and recalled at a glance. Special words and phrases of power are often employed as well as names...powerful names are a big deal in sigil crafting, traditionally. Things get a lot more complicated from there since once you start playing around with encrypted words and symbols and magical "formulas" of various kinds, there really is no stopping it and it can all become infinitely complex pretty quick. When you are just trying to get the hang of it, it is really best to stick to the essentials or you will get lost in a maze of very charismatic and very enigmatic sigils that, in some cases, nobody really has been able to decypher or ever would be able to decypher owing to their complexity and their secrecy. Sigils very often utilize secret codes so that if you don't have the code you won't really be able to understand the sigil.

These are fun and fascinating but they can also confuse the whole learning process. It is important to get a pretty good idea how sigils have been used historically, and there are a LOT of uses. I could easily commit a whole book just to this subject alone. The most common applications however have been in the way of spells and charms either to affect healing in some way, or promote increased power in some way...sometimes to affect injury and harm but more often to affect positive good by magical means.

"Charging" a sigil is mainly a matter of imparting psychic force into it but may also involve positioning it in special ways to receive force from a controlled environment. Certain very complex sigils have gone so far as to only allow the light from certain stars or moonlight to touch it for instance, and there are all kinds of ways to craft sigils/talismans along these lines. Special materials are often employed as well as special scents, oils, or materials from which the sigil/talisman is crafted. We have all heard of sigils drawn in blood for instance...but again...this is an area that can get infinitely complex rather quickly.

So let's just start from there...just a very basic outline...and see where this may lead.

m1thr0s

Kain

10-31-2006, 03:28 PM

Knowing that I should had a clear intent of what I wanted to "paste" in the sygil I reallized I should know myself better and should also clear my mind...So I understood that I should I first work my Mind and Will...And that which you've just realized right there could very well be the very one and recurrent answer to all questions of magickal knowledge and prowess, as self-knowledge is a continual and infinitely recurrent/self-redefinitive process...perhaps self-knowledge could even be called the only Path, Ability and Goal for all of us in the end, all blended in one simultaneously occuring mix...
Sygils again: I have now a doubt about charging it: picturing it in my Minds eye in a "Gnosis" moment is enough or must it be drawn in the "real world"?
I think that if the "Idea" is already in my subconscious Mind it is not necessary to draw it. But I really wanted to know it. I'm not absolutely confident that I understood the mechanics of Sygils...Well, as far as the described technique itself goes, you're right. However, you will certainly have already started to realize the sheer breadth of fertile space as far as personal preferances/variations go on this issue.

Kain

fr.novumorganum

10-31-2006, 06:34 PM

If one is just starting out, and if one's visualization skills are still underdeveloped (not to mention concentration) the drawn sigil will be a great benifit. (not to mention that the charged sigil can act as a talisman, but that is another tale). The moment of gnosis should be a pure,blank, well, explosion (think of the moment of orgasm) when the'mind' shut off and there is only direct experience for a moment. Unless well trained, that moment can easliy be non-directed; thus staring at the sigil so that is the only image to the 'mind' during gnosis/orgasim will be a great aid.

Phoenix

11-03-2006, 10:27 PM

Good night gentleman,
I think that the strenght of the sigil itself is the simbolic representation of your will, it kind of works as "faith" over the "miracle" issue, it has to take effect not only in your mind but in your perpherical view of your own reality.

Put in noobs terms, you have to believe with every single cell in your body that you will do it and never question it´s success

:)

Napsteria

01-28-2007, 10:36 PM

As I am new here I am trying to read up on the wealth of information contained on this forum. It might take a while. I found this thread and some incredibly interesting responses, and I hope you don't mind if I shake some life into the thread again.

From a tantric standpoint, you will want to pay close attention to the idea of unicursal symbols...these are symbols drawn with one continuous line whose beginning and endpoints are the same and which can be started and stopped from any coordinate point. Symbols which "move", or "weave" well in opposite directions are an important key to "charging" things...

There are to me three very new and interesting ideas in the quoted part by m1thr0s:

How does one improve the chaos sigils (or the charging of them) using such unicursal symbols?

How are unicursal symbols related to a tantric standpoint? What I know about tantra is very little, it reminds me on one side of taoism alchemy and the movement and circulation of chi, and on the other side of "god heads" manifesting the universe. None of it seems to apply to sigil chargings but I might be limited in my thinking.

"Symbols which move and weave" do you then mean the "flashing" effect that so obviously occurs when one is charging the sigil (or using a seal for evoking a spirit) or the actual design and pattern itself? If the latter, could you please give some examples of such sigil design?

Thank you
Napsteria

MythMath

01-28-2007, 10:43 PM

Excellent questions... :yes:

And keep shaking those old threads... ;)
_________________

Answers to follow (but not by me)...

m1thr0s

01-28-2007, 10:51 PM

this is all about scrying work Napsteria...so...a simple example might be an inverted pentagram for instance. When you "draw" that pentagram with some word of power assigned to it and chant that word as you draw (or scry, scribe etc) you are focusing psychic energy through that symbolic "prism" or "lense". So you can project that anywhere...you could "charge" a glass of water if you wanted to...any object is a potential talisman really. Unicursal symbols are more powerful because you build up a charge via a circuitry that has no stops or gaps...so the thing just goes round and round and builds up a good head of steam in much less time than something with gaps in it...also retaining the charge much longer etc...

So this is all about psychic energy and how to direct that efficiently at some object...this energy "projection" is what affords the "charge" itself...

this is all pretty basic stuff but for some reason a lot of people don't seem to know much about it. I think a lot of books seem to steer people in the wrong directions in general...or the authors themselves just don't know their crap from their oatmeal to begin with...

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-29-2007, 04:06 PM

Hi m1thr0s, I thought (and I admit I was wildly guessing) you were hinting to us that we should consider not just using a Kamea based or an AOSpare intent-reduced sigil as they are, but move further and intuitively change, reduce and twist around these sigils until one gets such shapes that are unicursal or that "move" and "weave".

I personally like to use the AOSpare method and then I redraw the sigil again and again until it has a shape that is more "active". I don't have a structure to that process so taking the time to learn some such "tricks of the trade" might be very worthwhile to me.

(I am still very curious to see examples of such types of sigils if not too much trouble.)

m1thr0s

01-29-2007, 05:02 PM

I don't know Spare's system intimately but it doesn't matter. Kamea magick has been around since before recorded history...literally...and it's a wide-open pallette Napsteria. If you have ideas you should definitely explore them.

My whole focus is the Body of Light & Abrahadabra stuff in general which is more tantric in scope. It isn't so much about contacting particular intelligences etc as it is about raising and manipulating energy within that framework. Kameas are useful to me because they all correspond to different points on the Tree of Life, or similarly to the Tetractys points which are numbered the same as the Tree (ie, 1-10).

I've done all kinds of personal experiments with Kameas and I like that form of magick generally because it's very clean and direct sorts of stuff. You also have a great deal of control over your various operations.

I'll try to get back a little later with a few examples of what i am talking about although I have examples scattered about this site already...you may not recognize what you are looking at in some cases since I sometimes cloak the Kamea itself...the Tetractys, which is my principal magickal tool these days, is a Kamea form...patterned on the Lo Shu Square...also called the Kamea of Saturn.

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-30-2007, 09:21 AM

m1thr0s,

I read your earlier responses in this thread in the context of what I perceived as the topic that the original poster was interested in, namely results-oriented magick reducing intent-sentenses into sigils to be used to acheive things such as "get me a summer work".

Now I suspect that you are rather talking about sigils to be used in a self-transformation perspective or the Great Work (if that is what you mean by tantric), not coming generally from an intended outcome but rather from selected symbolism generating desired energetic responses within the Self.

(My terminology might be off.)

m1thr0s

01-30-2007, 02:19 PM

It's true that that's mainly the focus of my own work Napsteria but I am addressing a general technique here and not its actual application, which can be pointed in any direction you want. Initially it was simply my intent to clarify the particulars of charging any talisman using tantric alchemical techniques. How that talisman, glyph or sigil will be designed...what its intended purpose will be...can be either Internally or Externally directed.

Maybe we should try meeting up in the middle here in some way which might be sort of interesting. You provide me with an example of a talisman you would be interested in employing and I will return to you with an example of how I would personally go about charging it...

If you are up for that, it might clarify things a bit.

If we are going to use the "get me a summer job" example, I need to see exactly how this sigil will look when written out in some way. My initial inclination is to think we would want to use the Kamea of Jupiter (fortune) but I won't know for sure until I see how it is being built already...

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-30-2007, 03:36 PM

That's a great idea, m1thr0s! I will give two examples of things that would be interesting to see how you would approach.

External growth: Let's assume that I have some savings and wish to invest the money in a suitable derivative or mutual fond or elsewhere. The intent is to find excellent advice and opportunities for excellent long-term investments. Assume the money is not needed for N years.

Internal growth: Manifestations of my magick have been great on the mental and astral (communicating and being taught) while something seems to make weak manifestations in the so called real world. The intent is to learn how to manifest the sought for results better.

I guess the latter would automatically solve the former but it might also be that your suggestion on the former might lead to improvements in the latter! Pick one of them or both, or neither, as you feel is best.

Napsteria

m1thr0s

01-30-2007, 03:46 PM

let's just focus on the external for a minute. I am going to assume you have already exhausted conventional means and this has failed. If you have not done this you are neglecting basic "earth magick" protocols and deserve whatever kick in the pants you get.

so my next question is: Is there any particular Intelligence you would like to inlist to help you with this or are you ok with letting the universe pick somebody for you?

note: also...I have a very busy day today so I may not be able to wrap this all up in one fell swoop. take your time at each step as this should serve as a generic sort of example for others as well...

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

01-30-2007, 03:55 PM

Ah the external is interesting here. Im inclined to think that Sleight of Mind is a lot more difficult when it comes to things that are "desired to the point of doubt", such as getting rich when you're accustomed to being poor, or trying to attract someone you are inwardly obsessed with. What are your thoughts?

m1thr0s

01-30-2007, 04:04 PM

right...that's why it's silly to try to place some sort of artificial barrier between the Internal and the External. Since some of us sort of know that already I want to approach this from a purely external sort of tac and we will inevitably come to where the internal figures in. You can't do magick from the external alone...it all comes from within/without synchronistically...

"As Within - So Without" [Hermes Trismegistus]

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-30-2007, 04:15 PM

(About first exhausting mundane means)
A good point! That would of course depend what you mean. I do know a fair amount about the risks of different investments, such as the difference between a mutual fund and a zero coupon derivative, and how warrants work etc, but there are different markets to choose from, China has exploded but perhaps it will now fall, and the future return of any investment is of course never guaranteed. (And no doubt I'd place the investments in a few selected instruments to reduce risk, the not-all-eggs-in-one-basket metaphor.)

I probably don't fully understand your definition of the word "intelligence". Are you asking if I have a favorite Solar or Jupiter entity or Goetia spirit or Greek/Norse/Hindu god (etc) with faculty to find treasures, that I wish to be involved in this? If that is what you are asking, then that would be interesting but for now let's answer "no".

Napsteria

m1thr0s

01-30-2007, 04:32 PM

hmmm...I see we are lacking in some basic concepts here...ok...that's ok...

here's how it works...in a nutshell...if I can coin it...

(1) every act is a magickal act (for better or for worse)
this means that literally everything you do "affects change" in things around you and within you. what really distinguishes what we call "magick" is focused intent. so the rule of thumb with affecting change in the external is that you do everything you can do in a practical sort of way and then add something "impractical" on top. It's not actually impractical but it would seem that way to some.

So...if you want some beautiful girl to hop in bed with you, you are probably going to have to at least say hello, for instance...if you fail to attend to the very most basic things in life, you can hardly blame the universe for failing to get you laid...magick works within the laws of nature...not outside them as is often mistakenly assumed. It can operate outside the known laws of nature but that is because these laws are not fully understood.

so here's our little magickal axiom for the day:

• mundane + sublime = "focused intent" = "magick"

unfortunately, if we are having to back up quite this far, I am not sure we will be able to get to the nuts & bolts of talismatic applications.
but we can try...

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

01-30-2007, 05:24 PM

So...if you want some beautiful girl to hop in bed with you...

***still waiting, pen poised over notebook in anticipation***

:tsmile:

m1thr0s

01-30-2007, 05:26 PM

rofl...one fortune at a time now...lol...

m1thr0s

fr.novumorganum

01-30-2007, 05:39 PM

i just wanted to link this thread to the results thread in CM, as they really inform one another

http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1033

m1thr0s

01-30-2007, 10:06 PM

I probably don't fully understand your definition of the word "intelligence". Are you asking if I have a favorite Solar or Jupiter entity or Goetia spirit or Greek/Norse/Hindu god (etc) with faculty to find treasures, that I wish to be involved in this? If that is what you are asking, then that would be interesting but for now let's answer "no".ok...so let's move on. you said earlier:
I read your earlier responses in this thread in the context of what I perceived as the topic that the original poster was interested in, namely results-oriented magick reducing intent-sentenses into sigils to be used to acheive things such as "get me a summer work". so my next question is: do you have such a sentence or some other sigil or phrase or something that you want to employ in this operation? You mentioned Austin Spare for instance, is there something from his work that you want to try out here?

also...due to the fact that you aren't already bringing any particular alliances to bear here (so far at least), it is prudent to ask in a general sort of way...why magick? Not to put you on the spot...just in general...what do you think magick might be able to do that you would not be able to do without it? There's no right or wrong answer so much as knowing what you most want from all of this will also tell us a little about which way to go about crafting a talisman or sigil, although I was mainly expecting to confine myself to discussing how to "charge" it tantrically...

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-31-2007, 12:19 AM

Okey, let us make a sentence up, and there is no sigil or phrase that I want to try out.

"I wish to find 'best possible' investments I can do right now with a 3 year perspective"

[One would probably do better in total to have a more overall strategy for improving personal fortune, but never mind, such things can be learned through books etc]

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 12:27 AM

hmmm...ok...

I recommend you trim this phrase to exactly 16 words. 8 would be even better. This is going to be a talismatic operation, not an english exam, so we can leave out the's and and's etc...how about...FIND - BEST - INVESTMENTS - NOW - INCLUDING - THREE - YEAR - PERSPECTIVE

Before we go any further, I thought we were going to be working with Kamea Magic...do you no longer want to do that? I can't really show you how to charge something if there isn't anything to charge...you will have to do something with your sentence besides carrying it around in your head. Unless you just want a mantra...

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-31-2007, 01:14 AM

Sounds good to me.

Kamea or Spare or Rose-Cross or... any other type of sigilization process is fine by me, what would you use yourself?

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 01:28 AM

Kamea or Spare or Rose-Cross or... any other type of sigilization process is fine by me, what would you use yourself?
Kamea of Jupiter all the way on this one...

http://www.conjurer.org/images/kam_4_nr.png

traditionally concerns Fortune and all matters pertaining to Fortune...and there is TONS of stuff we can do with it tantrically.
Very easy to charge...almost charges itself.

m1thr0s

MythMath

01-31-2007, 01:38 AM

If only more of the threads were like this one...

This may be old hat to some, but I'm on the edge of my seat...

Thanks for taking the time to detail it...

____________

m1thr0s, the serial killa... :yes:

Dragon

01-31-2007, 01:49 AM

The Jupiter Talisman is one of those classics. Some systems basically require that you make one at some point in your life. The most common form is in metals, although I have seen them made out of clay, glass, and wood.

Good form says it should be made of your own hands, but if you lack the skill just google and I'm sure you will find them for sale...you can charge it with the sigil work from there.

There, an official two cents.

~D~

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 01:49 AM

ok...since I am actually going to have to build the sigil itself as well as show you how to charge it this will take a little longer as there are a few graphics involved. At this point I would normally ask you for your credit card information, or, alternately, you could just sign over the soul of your first-born child...

just kidding...

quick recap:
we are going to build a chargeable talisman around the phrase:
FIND - BEST - INVESTMENTS - NOW - INCLUDING - THREE - YEAR - PERSPECTIVE

write this down and don't lose it...only you (and the entire internet) know this key. This will be the last time you actually see it because from here we are going to begin encrypting it and fashioning it to the Key of Jupiter.

There are all kinds of cool ways to encrypt words, but for simplicity's sake I am going to stick to basics. You can take these principles and expound upon them at another time once you have learned them.

So to start with we are going to reduce each word to a single letter and it's pretty standard just to take the first letter of each word. FBINITYP is thus our encrypted phrase and subsequent "word of power". Only those who know the key (the one you have written down and hidden someplace safe) will know exactly how to pronounce this "magickal word"...

what...it's already "magickal"? actually, yes it is...it just isn't very potent yet...we'll get to that...

m1thr0s

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 06:34 AM

As Dragon has indicated, the Key of Jupiter is a classic in talismatic magick for a number of very important reasons. Based on a 4 x 4 = 16 square Grid it is in many ways that Kamea best suited to represent 4's and everything that they constitute, which is a huge range of things indeed. From 4/4 time to the 4 elements/forces to the 4 corners of the universe, it would take a substantial book to even begin to make a dent in it all. Understanding which Kamea best suits your specific operational requirements is important and will impact the overall effectiveness of anything you try to do in this way.

Encrypting words and aligning them to qualified magickal constructs has the general effect of empowering those words in many different ways, but one of the most common underlying themes we find going on here is the principle of supersymmetry. I won't try to go into all of this right here but there are a couple of things we really need to look at . The first is numbers:

http://abrahadabra.com/images/koj.numbers.gif

There is more than one way to create a *magic square* but they all have very similar properties in that they will reveal certain underlying symmetries deemed "magical" by mathematicians and magicians alike. In this traditional arrangement all horizontal, vertical and diagonal rows add up to the same number (34). But magic squares reveal symmetries beyond numbers alone.

Geomancy is an ancient form of divination very similar to to the I Ching in that it is a binary mathematics built on combinations of 1 or 2 dots, stacked 4 rows high. The dots are then connected in with lines to create the recognizeable geomantiic characters. The total number of permutations possible in this system is 16, the same number of squares in the Kamea of Jupiter. These geomantic characters also correspond to the 16 binary tetragrams of the I Ching and again to the 16 Court Card characters of the Tarot. When placed chronologically in the Key of Jupiter, these characters assume a relationship of balanced opposites uniformly throughout the grid. The geomantic characters look like this:

http://abrahadabra.com/images/koj.geomantic.gif

We can draw to this principle of balanced opposites in the way we align out word of power, so long as it has the requirements necessary to do this. In this case it needs to be exactly 8 letters long. One way to achieve an exact alignment is to create a palindrome, so our word of power actually becomes a mirror reflection of itself extending to 16 letters in length.

FBINITYP + PYTINIBF = FBINITYPPYTINIBF

When we place our expanded word of power in the Kamea of Jupiter we get this:

http://abrahadabra.com/images/koj.palindrome.gif

One of the most basic ways of establishing a magickal sigil is now available to us simply by finding some agreeable way to create a symbol from our original word of power FBINITYP. Again, there are lots of ways to approach this. For the sake of a simple demonstration I will just pick something reasonably easy to identify such as this:

http://abrahadabra.com/images/koj.sigil01.gif

It is customary at this point to place this sigil within a circle of some kind, either plain or itself embellished in various ways to further enhance the potency of the sigil. For the moment I will just use a basic circle:

http://abrahadabra.com/images/koj.sigil02.gif

What happens here then is that our word has now developed a unique energy signature in the Kamea of Jupiter itself and can either be used by itself or in conjunction with its secret pronuciation which its sigil reveals only to those who know the key upon which it has been carefully constructed.

So this defines, not all methods, but a very reliable and a very recognized method of constructing a magickal word of power and corresponding sigil from a random phrase we just happened to want to focus on and possibly empower magickally. It should be at least partially evident that this whole combined process of enhanced stealth & synchronism gives us a very different kind of word or phrase than we started out with...one that is now armed to the teeth and very "concentrated", or "focused".

But this symbol is still not "unicursal", so I will return again and take a look at how we can push the energizing of this magickal sigil further out even still.

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-31-2007, 10:13 AM

Oh very nice, I never expected that the discussion would turn so detailed!

I (live in the illusion that I) understood everything here so far except how the geomantic symbols were related to the drawing of the sigil, and how you selected between the 16 points on the Kamea when drawing it. That is, I know you spelled out the word of power, but there were multiple choices for each letter.

Yes, I would be very interested in seeing the next steps making it unicursal etc!

Napsteria

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 02:31 PM

yeah, the geomantic characters really takes a bit longer to explain correctly but they are important enough that I can't just leave them out of the discussion completely. They follow the same organization as the numbers but they establish the whole balanced-opposites principle within the Kamea blocks, or squares. Here's a Wikipedia link on them: Geomantic Figures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomantic_figures#Via)

Yes, there were "multiple choices" as you say...that's good...that let's me know you're getting this whole thing. This is where things start to get a little "subjective" and there's different approaches at this point as well. I am mainly sticking to a point-to-point strategy for the sake of clarity but as you poke around looking at various sigils you'll start to find all kinds of bizarre variations on this whole theme. I might recommend The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage as a good book on this stuff as well as assorted books on Enochian Magic etc. And there's Solomonic stuff and assorted other sources out there...

What I am laying out here really is a very condensed version of the whole thing just enough to convey the "science" of it all etc...

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

01-31-2007, 02:48 PM

Wow. This is really cool stuff

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 02:54 PM

Wow. This is really cool stuff
I'm a talismaniac to the bone...crave this stuff personally...it satisfies both the logical and the intuitive parts of my brain and also has very clear applications in tantric work which I will come to presently...though you won't find much of anything in western literature on that aspect of things.

I have a neat trick I want to show everybody in a minute...it's a bit of a detour but I think you'll like it...needs another graphic though..

m1thr0s

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 03:24 PM

ok...this is kind of fun. As far as I know I am the only person who has published anything on this but I can't possibly be the only one who has ever noticed it or used it I think. This is how you can build a talismatic pyramid from the Key of Jupiter in which all four sides + base have exactly 16 sections each. You can use this template to create a 3D talisman in whatever materials you like and they can be hung or placed on alters or ceremonially "released' onto the astral or just anything you want to really...you can also place stuff inside the pyramid which opens up a whole other level of magickal hoodoo...hehe...

132

how you fill in the sections is entirely up to you of course but if you count all ascending and descending triangles with each side section you will see that there are exactly 16 per side, the same as the base. This just happens to be one of the amazing little synchronicities that occurs between squares and triangles...this works for any magickal square by the way...not just Jupiter.

bon apetite!

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-31-2007, 04:17 PM

Okey, this is a good thread because it has started making me THINK and DO a lot of things.

I drew a 4-Kamea and drew the sigil of going from 1 to 16. Interesting shape. Kind of spacey when scrying it. Then I played with different ways to make a nice strong symbol which was unicursal, and one of them overflowed me with energy when scrying it. I might have stumbled upon something old there.

Then, I got curious why you would mention those geomantic symbols and I didn't obviously see the symmetry you mentioned in the Kamea, so I wrote down each of them including all the astrological attributions, for the first time ever. It's especially interesting to discover that they, like the I Ching, are based on 2-values slots. When assigning the top "bit" of the geomantic symbol to the highest significant "bits" of a 4-bit word, then you get a sequence of them from 0 to 15. Then I drew that sequence in the Kamea you showed with the geomantic symbols in it, it turns out to draw the exact same shape as the first one I described in this post. Of course, you had of course put the symbols in the Kamea in a logical order. I have still to see the symmetry [in terms of astrological associations of the symbols], apart from the obvious mirror-like symmetry of the order-generated sigil.

If I'm not writing coherently in this post, it's because I'm filled to the limit with all sorts of conflicting energies right now (I told you I'm sensitive to this kind of work!) It's a good sign that I am learning though!

Now, about the pyramid that you presented, that is very interesting. I can easily imagine that there is a good symmetrical way to number the triangles within the side-triangles, allowing us to generate some alternative sigils for our intent on the side of the pyramid.

Napsteria

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 04:33 PM

Okey, this is a good thread because it has started making me THINK and DO a lot of things.Doesn't get any better than that! ;)

So...it sounds to me like you already understand about *scrying*, which should also mean then that you basically already understand how to impart a *charge* into the talisman itself. Am I right about this? If so, I'll skip the next little segment on charging since there is no point telling you something you already know. I am also a little pressed for time right now but I will lay this out if it's actually needed.

The thing to remember is that these little puppies are potent! We've packed a lot of "focused intent" into this thing so far and now we're about to embark on *charging* it when it's already pretty *hot* just sitting there all by itself. So the practical solution to this is to make sure that whatever you do to impart a *charge* also employs some sort of centering & grounding action. I tell people this all the time but it bears repeating...if you are going to up the amplitude in terms of energy, you will also want to make sure to stabilize that energy in some way or it can seriously bite you in the ass in all kinds of unexpected ways. The energy itself wants to be *balanced* and will seek out whatever balance it can find. If you fail to provide it with one it may find a path not especially to your liking or best advantage.

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-31-2007, 05:06 PM

I certainly would be happy if you would explain how you would charge this thing - after or before the reshaping into an unicursal design (with "weaves" etc) as you mentioned before, which was what got my interest started originally.

[Edit: Perhaps I should add that by scrying the sigils I created, I meant that I just relaxed and looked at it while trying to feel what energy it would convey. I've contacted hundreds of spirits this way.]

BTW, I do recognize the side of the triangle-pyramid as part of your avatar here, so I now realize that it's not just a pretty figure, but probably a general purpose sigil that you've made. Cool!

How would you go about to center and ground yourself when imparting the charge to the talisman? The energy you talk about that this talisman (or rather the sigil as we have yet to actually draw it on a physical object) has, would you say that it is a subcurrent of the jupiter current or am I diving(!) too deeply right now for this discussion?

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 05:25 PM

ok...I'll get to that in a minute then although I may have to keep it abbreviated.

yes...we have done everything we can think of thus far to draw the force of Jupiter into this question (and issue) that we want to have successfully resolved. We have linked our phrase/word to a very powerful mathematical matrix that is known to link to Jupiterian current/intelligence. We have at this point every good reason to imagine that we have *empowered* this phrase/word with the magickal force of Jupiter.

m1thr0s

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 06:34 PM

http://abrahadabra.com/images/koj.tantric.jpg

ok...a little background discussion first. Once we have built our talisman/sigil thingy it's pretty much got everything it needs built right into it. We don't have to remain locked into it in order to energize it because the work we have already done insures that our guidelines are going to remain constant and stable. I like to get personally involved with my talismans. I want to make sure that they aren't working for anybody else but me. I also want to make sure I have given them every possible chance of success. The best way I have discovered to do that is to take a step back from them and add another layer on top which is pulling energy from the highest access point I can give them. In terms of the Tree of Life and its whole language, I want to infuse the energy of Crown (and Highest Crown) into the whole equation. That makes this phase of things a Body of Light operation, thus a "tantric" one.

There are a lot of possible ways to do this, but if we can find something that is symmetrically aligned both to the Magickal Square and the Body of Light itself, so much the better. In working with Magickal Squares, I have discovered a particular overlay pattern that is especially useful and can be applied to all of them which I have illustrated above. At first glance it appears to be an 8-pointed star but is in fact two interlocking (asymmetrical) pentagrams balanced at the middle horizontal line. If you begin from either side arm of this symbol, moving towards its opposite foot, and draw a continuous line as far as you can take it, it will lead you through both ascending & descending pentagrams and right back to where you started, in one continuous (unicursal) sweep. If you start from the left you will be moving in a counterclockwise direction, If you start from the right you will be moving in a clockwise direction, so we have both directions of the circle fully accounted for in this operation.

You can use whatever word or phrase you want to use as a mantra to this operation because it's not going to upset the formula already embedded into the talisman. This is a layering action, so it adds onto the thing and doesn't replace or subtract from anything else already set in place.

And that's about it really...not a whole lot more to it than that but it is a very dynamic addition to everything else we have done here and allows you to really bear down on the sigil or talisman with everything you have got...another way of infusing *focused intent* into the whole situation.

Centering & Grounding should be employed in any energy raising operation but what you do is sort of up to you. I am partial to Circle & Triangle for this as I have outlined in my TwinStar Meditation article here (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=781).

The operation itself looks like this:

http://abrahadabra.com/images/center.ground01.gif

I don't imagine this aspect of things will be entirely clear so if you have any questions I will do my best to answer them. Keep in mind that this is just an example...it's the principle that really matters here and not the particulars of what I do exactly. The stuff I use is all very good stuff but it's not the only possibilities in town by a longshot. The principle itself however has been grossly understated in magickal literature and needs to be looked at very seriously indeed. This is really about the only way I know of to get behind your talismatic creations 100%.

m1thr0s

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 07:07 PM

so...about your first-born child...was that a boy soul or a girl soul? :laugh: :rofl: :laugh:
(I have to keep these things straight for tax purposes you understand...)

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-31-2007, 08:00 PM

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 08:20 PM

That top figure is definitely powerful! It looks like an unicursal Octagram to me, with an added horizontal line, and it did take me quite a while to figure out what you meant with the ascending & descending pentagrams. Then it clicked!coolbeans...

Could you please expand a little on the connection to the Crown (Kether).That's a pretty extensive topic but the short version is that these particular pentagrams have a special relationship to Akasha (spirit), so are drawing on that energy at its source. On the Tree of Life that Source is in Crown/Highest Crown...

Could you also please explain in slightly more detail what you mean by overlay. Do you mean one should make a Kamea with that octagram drawn on it and then also draw the sigil of our intent on top, or did you mean more like draw the octagram and Kamea astrally over the Talisman in a ritual?not necessary to inscribe anything on the talisman itself, no. You could do that if you wanted to but it isn't necessary. An overlay is pretty much just what you might expect...something layered on top of something else, but in this case you can do that with scrying...you don't have to etch it in. Think of it like a meditation that you layer on top of the sigil...a special chant/visualization application.

PS: I hope you don't mean that in some Crowleyan sense! LOL DSNone of this has anything to do with Crowley directly. I pull from some of his stuff where the quality warrants it. I'm not a Crowleyite or a Thelemite or any of that...mainly because it doesn't make any sense to me to call myself a "Will-ite" or speak in terms of "Will-magick". As opposing what? Is there some other kind of magick I don't know about? Might as well call myself an Air-Breathing Human! In any case, Tantrick Alchemy is pretty much my thing although I have definitely pulled a few pages from AC's work...some of it just happens to be very good stuff.

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-31-2007, 09:05 PM

I read the part about grounding now (and that whole page is very interesting!) and it isn't yet clear to me if this circle and triangle is something you draw with something (wand etc) in the air in front of you while just sitting/standing in front of the talisman, or if it is something you do in four directions of the room, or horizontally on the floor?

It says to start and stop drawing it in the middle, so I suppose you draw from the middle up to the top first and then form the whole circle, but how do you then draw the rest of the cross, before starting on the triangle part? Otherwise, perhaps you mean that one goes up, quarter-circle left, back to center, out to left, quarter-circle down, back to center etc?

I would like to try that grounding now before I pass out. :)

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 09:24 PM

not quite right...

This whole symbolism is reciprocal to you and you are always positioned at center. So the very first action is what I call a reach but the Circle begins in Crown and returns to Crown, followed by the Triangle which also begins in Crown but drops plumb through Earth and floats back up to Center. This is why I say it begins and ends at Center.

You can do this application internally but it was designed to be projected against any external object as a stable focal point. You sort of have to imagine both things happening at once...it is happening internally and externally at the same time. But your focal point can be a crystal ball, or a talisman, or a glass of water for that matter...any object you choose.

You should do the counter-clockwise circle/triangle first, then the clockwise circle/triangle, followed by a closing action which is just a repeat of the clockwise circle/triangle...

m1thr0s

Napsteria

01-31-2007, 10:45 PM

Which direction should the dual-Pentagram be drawn in to charge the talisman, clock-wise or counter? Do you do it once or as many times as the planet (4 for Jupiter etc) or very very many while focusing on the talisman being charged?

Is the plus sign inside the grounding-circle then not drawn at all?

How does one know when ithe talisman is charged? In my experience with sigils, they can sometimes seem charged but then never manifest, other times I spend a tremendous energy to charge it but they still don't manifest, and othertimes I kind of never get around to charge them and they manifest! Is there a good trick to know when "it is done"?

When thinking in a chaos or Spare paradigm, I tend to just draw it on a printer paper note, and then tear it up and toss it away or burn it after charging it, thinking that the process itself is the magick rather than the physical object itself - any thoughts in this area?

Napsteria

m1thr0s

01-31-2007, 11:05 PM

Which direction should the dual-Pentagram be drawn in to charge the talisman, clock-wise or counter? Do you do it once or as many times as the planet (4 for Jupiter etc) or very very many while focusing on the talisman being charged?whatever works. I run both directions many times...no certain amount...till it feels cooked.

Is the plus sign inside the grounding-circle then not drawn at all?right. axis lines are just for visual reference.

How does one know when ithe talisman is charged? In my experience with sigils, they can sometimes seem charged but then never manifest, other times I spend a tremendous energy to charge it but they still don't manifest, and othertimes I kind of never get around to charge them and they manifest! Is there a good trick to know when "it is done"?no certain test. when you say "it is done", it is done...

When thinking in a chaos or Spara paradigm, I tend to just draw it on a printer paper note, and then tear it up and toss it away or burn it after charging it, thinking that the process itself is the magick rather than the physical object itself - any thoughts in this area?this is usually referred to as "sealing" the sigil or talisman...some swear by it in all instances but I find it varies. you have to find your own form really. tearing it up and throwing it away seems sort of silly but if it works...hey...

here in this topic I am only addressing how to build & charge a sigil/talisman...and even then...just according to one well established method (there are others). When you start going down the "why-isn't-it-working" road we are off into a whole other topic. Many variables, yourself included, since none of these things come bundled with a 30-day money-back guarantee...

I don't use talismans for financial matters specifically. never works for me and I'm pretty damn good at this stuff. I know people who claim it works for them like clockwork. are they smarter than me? doing something better than me? nope. their whole relationship to the world of money is simply very different than mine. their solutions would never work for me. you have to know yourself and have some idea what you are about to be able to assess these things clearly.

all magick...like it or not...is first and foremost about self-exploration. I can design a talisman to any task at all but that doesn't mean it will achieve that task for everybody...a lot depends on the person doing the magick. there's simply no dodging that one...you could design the perfect baseball bat but it wouldn't guarantee home runs for every person swinging it...

and really...would that be so perfect in the end? it'd probably kill the game of baseball altogether...

m1thr0s

m1thr0s

02-01-2007, 04:53 PM

http://abrahadabra.com/images/koj.fortune.jpg

Here is a *generic* "Fortune" sigil/talisman that anybody can use for the general purpose of combatting misfortune on all levels. Some of you may have noticed that there is a bit of a "rat" in Jupiter that has a remarkable tendency to target "magickal" folk with uncanny accuracy. This is way to settle the balance, but you have to be prepared to bear down and slug it out. Nevertheless, this cannot fail to rectify that kind of damage in the end.

This is a TwinStar control portal (and technical supercomputer) targeting Jupiter itself and reclaiming its natural *Army* as depicted in the Geomantic Characters. It has its historical roots in the Hermetic formula of Shemhamphorasch, sometimes spelled IHShVH-IVShHH, though I prefer the formula VIAOV-VOAIV for both Ascending & Descending Pents. This is also a "Lord of the Horizon" formula owing to its start-stop parameters which very much emphasizes strength of arms.

Here in this formula you can target that "rat" directly and reclaim that army for yourself. This will almost certainly go over many people's heads but for those of you who get it I can tell you in no uncertain terms that this is a powerful snag. It's not about making you rich and famous per se...It's about combatting unnecessary and/or unwarranted misfortune itself, where that misfortune may be rooted in an "ill-dignified" Jupiter. It's a way of "purging" Jupiter on subatomic level. This is a powerful tool that can isolate the root of that misfortune and fundamentally kick its ass (or "right" its ass if you prefer).

And if there were no such "rat" (which indeed there is) it would work out just the same since it not only corrects Jupiter's ills but also pulls its positive qualities in closer to your immediate sphere. Either way you win - you win.

I wouldn't expect anybody to *believe* that...run some experiments for yourself...if you will, of course.

bon apetite!

m1thr0s

Napsteria

02-02-2007, 03:00 AM

It's great to be on this forum I have to say!

this is usually referred to as "sealing" the sigil or talisman...some swear by it in all instances but I find it varies. you have to find your own form really. tearing it up and throwing it away seems sort of silly but if it works...hey...
I've never heard the word sealing, does it mean the physical destruction of the talisman? Where can I read more about that? Is this supposed to be done immediately after charging it? I remember one talisman that didn't give any results at all for months until I destroyed it in anger, then I got some little signs of manifestation at least. A physical talisman is suppose to slowly attract the required results, as I've been told, but that would contradict having to destroy it to get the results!

In the tearing up example quoted, I would tear it up because the idea in the chaos paradigm is that one should forget the intent, the sigil and even having charged the sigil. Sleight of mind, they call it. In chaos magick a sigil is something you implant into the subconscious rather than a physical object (talisman) you bring around in your pocket so the physical thing is not of any relevance to the charge.

(Burning it somehow appeals to me more than tearing it, but I am not convinced if it actually is has any magical effect or not.)

What is in your experience best, to charge the talisman while focusing on the intent and feeling as if you were currently having it right now with visualization etc - or is it best to not at all consciously think of the intent while charging it? There seems to be two completely different schools in the magical literature.

I know people who claim it works for them like clockwork. are they smarter than me? doing something better than me? nope. their whole relationship to the world of money is simply very different than mine. Now, I will invest that money and it would be best for everyone if I do it in a great way so that I add some value to the Universe while becoming more independent personally - however, my example was chosen from a set of many issues I'm facing at the moment.

I too have an area where magick seems less effective than other areas, although, probably, as you wrote, it would be better to discuss such things in a separate thread.

Since it's an octagram it is good for workings of 8 (Mercury) and 4=8/2 (Jupiter) and the two pentagrams makes it suitable for 5 and 10 (Mars and Earth). I would be curious if you would fit the twin-pentagram onto all other Kameas or if there is some Kamea where you would rather chose another symbol to "overlay" when charging?

What connection is there between the geomantic symbols (which I now know correspond to all the astrological signs and all the planets) and the choice of the planet Jupiter, well, apart from the obvious that they are 16=4x4 symbols?

Zooming out a little, do you personally always use a planetary paradigm when doing sigil/talisman magick? If not, do you ever employ Goetia king or the Runes or specific angelic forces or the astrological forces (leo etc) and how do you create a single strong sigil from that?

However much I love the planets and the classic attributions, I often find it hard to categorize my intents into a single planet, often they have components in several planets. For example "improved business" would need structure (saturn), expansion/wealth (jupiter), face competition (mars), be wholesome and have money (sun), luck (venus), intelligence and communication (mercury), and moon is the only magical planet I find no use for in business. Other intents can't fit easily into any planet, such as asking for particular rare devices or rare physical objects, and other intents seem to be more "planet inside a planet", for instance mars in venus. Any comments on that?

Here is a *generic* "Fortune" sigil/talisman that anybody can use for the general purpose of combatting misfortune on all levels.Very powerful looking! Could almost be taken from the Key of Solomon, if you would add some hebrew to it. I actually drew one like this (but without the twin-pents) yesterday in my note book while studying all this new knowledge, perhaps it's half charged already by doing so.

I suppose one should charge and use this talisman similar to the specific intent ones, but as it is of such general purpose, should one charge it once and then forget about it, or is it in your experience better to work with it a lot and thereby charging it more and more?

It has its historical roots in the Hermetic formula of Shemhamphorasch, sometimes spelled IHShVH-IVShHH, though I prefer the formula VIAOV-VOAIV for both Ascending & Descending Pents.That was far above my current understanding, is it related at all to the IHShVH-IHVShH of the Golden Dawn Rose Cross ritual? I notice that the second word is different. (I am by no means affiliated with any GD order.)

This is also a "Lord of the Horizon" formula owing to its start-stop parameters which very much emphasizes strength of arms.Do you have a source online or book where I can read what those words mean in this context?

Napsteria

m1thr0s

02-02-2007, 03:17 AM

I only have a moment Napsteria but want to address something right away regarding "sealing". This is usually done by completely comsuming it by fire. Tossing it in the garbage is for idiots...this is shawdy magick and completely misses the point which is that this is following the magickal standard of the Phoenix which is reborn from its own ashes...in this case...on the Astral plane. Thus it is "sealed"...on the Astral Plane...and cannot therefor be tampered with or undone.

It has become fused by some mediocre chaos magickians (I don't give a rats ass how famous they are) with the principle of deliberate forgetting...of putting it completely out of your mind etc. These are not the same things and even so, dumping a talisman in the garbage is a magickal act in itself...one I would not want to be personally responsible for unless that talisman really was garbage.

This is important...talk to me or to people who know their shit...or just become a very thorough research scientist in your aim to understand the principles of magick. There are a lot of lazy-ass morons out there who do not understand this art or science at all but imagine themselves to be very knowledgable.

I will return to your other questions as time permits.

The spelling IHShVH-IHVShH is incorrect...I don't care where you found it. It was spelled this way to try to convey its usual pronunciation but the Shin (Sh) should always be placed central on either side of this spelling. Think of it as two pentagrams standing side-by-side but mirror opposites of each other. Placing the Shin anywhere but central will give you a skewed pairing and thus an imbalanced magickal equation. Twits. Oh well...

The Lord of the Horizon is an Egyptian reference corresponding to Ra, or Horus, or Ra Hoor Khut and a few others of similar stature...powerful Solar deities. You find references to this in the Egyptian Book of the Dead and various other Egyptian sources. I don't have exact references handy...it should probably yield something via Google...

Perseverance Furthers

m1thr0s

m1thr0s

02-02-2007, 12:18 PM

What is in your experience best, to charge the talisman while focusing on the intent and feeling as if you were currently having it right now with visualization etc - or is it best to not at all consciously think of the intent while charging it? There seems to be two completely different schools in the magical literature.When you use the word "best" this might apply to several possible contexts, best in terms of immediate results, best in terms of the big picture (or all possible results including the unexpected), best for your mental health and a few other possibilities...But here's the deal as I see it: Once you have laid in all of your instructions on the talisman, that aspect of "focused intent" is a done deal and you need to summons the confidence to know that and accept that. In part this comes from experience that yields certain earth-wisdoms about such things. Now a talisman can be used in two important ways and it is the second way that Chaos Magicians are seemingly typically oblivious to. The first way of course is Ritualistic...you build it...you charge it...you do something with it and that's that. In that event you walk away clean and - not so much "forget about it" as assume the deed as done.

The second way is Tantric, or Developmental. A talisman can serve as a focus of an ongoing meditation practise, just like a crystal ball, a magickal mirror, or any other charged magickal tool. So in that case you can integrate it into a larger ongoing process if you choose to. If you go that route it is mainly important that you don't get too fixated on the specifics of the intended goal but look instead to the overall development of your "practise" as a whole. Now if you don't really have a practise, and you don't really want to devise one, then you will want to go with the first method. If you are sort of interested in the overall process and wish to explore that further, then this is really your first serious magickal experiment and you should start a journal and begin keeping tabs on it and every important thing you learn corresponding to it. So it can serve as a kind of impetus to "higher learning" and also allows you to work on charging it over a longer period of time. One of the ways this might be done is to establish a special place for it..an alter space or something of a similar nature, so that it has a kind of special place at the table so to speak. Other items that come into your practise as you develop it would join it on the alter as well and this might be anything from a Tarot Deck to a special Book of some kind (your journal for instance) or anything else deemed similar or supportive of that ongoing magickal operation.

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

02-02-2007, 04:32 PM

Is "Sleight of Mind" involved in this process?

m1thr0s

02-02-2007, 05:07 PM

yes, but it's an overworked rhetoric. there's nothing new about any of this. the tantrics have been talking about the importance of "divine detachment" since they started talking at all...now suddenly the Chaotes seem to think they've discovered something new.

and I like Chaos Magick...I'm a bit of a Chaote myself...but I don't like pseudo-intellectualism one damn bit and I'll chew it a new asshole every chance I get. The truth is, you can't really "forget" something you have commited through "focused intent"...unless you are brain-dead or something, you'll still have some memory of what you "forgot". So it's really a matter of "dismissing" it formally...called the "license to depart" in ritual magick. It's all about detaching yourself from the outcome.

m1thr0s

Kain

02-02-2007, 05:17 PM

The truth is, you can't really "forget" something you have commited through "focused intent"...unless you are brain-dead or something, you'll still have some memory of what you "forgot". So it's really a matter of "dismissing" it formally...called the "license to depart" in ritual magick. It's all about detaching yourself from the outcome.Great description of a not often brought up facet of sigil work m1thr0s...I feel precicely the same way concerning this subject.

Kain

Ci Celli Ddu

02-02-2007, 05:30 PM

..but I don't like pseudo-intellectualism one damn bit and I'll chew it a new asshole every chance I get..

Intersting expression :laugh:

I find Sleight of Mind quite useful as an explanation of a process, but when it comes to "forgetting" or moving the intent into the subconscious it's true that dismissal is a more realistic approach. I mean, how can you try to forget something?!
Isn't the term Sleight of Mind attributed to Spare?

Ratatosk

02-02-2007, 08:48 PM

Sigil work with Bind-Runes

Since I have been sucking in all the good info in this thread, I thought I would share the kind of work I do with bind-runes. While not strictly chaos magick, it does share many of the same elements with this particular type of sigil work.

A quick note: the rune definitions I will use here are not all the aspects of the given runes, but are the particular aspects on which I wish to focus. Also, these are the runes I have chosen for this demo, you may want to choose different runes based on your particular circumstances.

Step one: determine the goal

"I wish to find the 'best possible' investments I can do right now with a 3 year perspective."

Associated runes:
http://www.evardsson.com/brb/kennaz.gifkennaz (insight, wisdom, skill) we are looking for the insight and skill to find these investments, neh?
http://www.evardsson.com/brb/uruz.gifuruz (aurochs, opportunity for increased wealth, some risk involved) this is the chance to extend wealth, but requires the domestic-type wealth to bind it in place. (see step two)
http://www.evardsson.com/brb/jera.gifjera (cycles, harvest) since this is not something that is going to be immediate, but rather a long-term projectEasy enough.

Step two: determine what you are offering

"I will apply all my current finances that are earmarked for investment."

Associated runes:
http://www.evardsson.com/brb/feoh.giffehu (cattle, wealth) this is not fantastic wealth, this is getting-by wealth, this is needed to bind uruz and "domesticate" itStep three: determine extenuating or expanding properties you wish to add

"I would really like for this to be a happy move, into a more fiscally enjoyable position."

Associated runes:
http://www.evardsson.com/brb/wunjo.gifwunjo (victory, joy) Yes, let's really win this one!Step four: design the layout

For those not well-practiced in this I would recommend that on a piece of paper you draw out how the runes lay on (bind to) each other. Note that just as with any lettering system slight variants in angle, length of line, etc are acceptable in order to "bind" the runes together, as long as they are still identifiable.

http://www.evardsson.com/brb/drawing.gif

Step five: assemble your tools and materials

What you will need:
a suitably flat piece of wood, say 2" x 2" max
a carving implement
a clean (sterile if you have it) sharp knife or razor
a suitable place to burn the wood (preferably outside)
something with which to burn the wood (torch, matches and fire-starter, whatever)

Step six: carve the design
Start with the first rune, cut deliberately, focusing on the meaning of that rune as it relates to the work at hand. In this case, while carving kennaz focus on something along the lines of "Open my sight to the proper opportunities."

(All the runes should be completely cut or carved into the wood, they should be obivously cut runes and not look like scratches.)

Now the second rune: even though uruz has a bind-staff with kennaz already there (the bottom staff of kennaz), carve it again - you need to carve the entire rune, again focusing on the meaning of that rune as it relates to the working. "Here is opportunity, wealth that I can obtain with my expanded insight."

And then jera - "Here is the cycle, wherein I will reap the benefits of the opportunity I seize based on my insight."

Continuing on with fehu "I will use my current holdings to start the cycle wherein I will reap the benefits of the opportunity I seize based on my insight."

And now wunjo: "I will experience the joy that comes from reaping the benefits of the opportunity I seize based on my insight."

Step seven: this is what the sharp knife or razor is for.

You need to bleed on the bind rune, fill it with blood, and (if you are so inclined, as I usually am) completely "paint" the entire piece of wood with it, all the while focusing on your intent.

Step eight:

After the blood has dried (and you may want to bandage up), take the bind-rune and burning tools to the place where you are going to burn it. Burn it, focusing your intent into the bind-rune as it burns. Burn it until it is a charcoal (they most often do not reduce to ashes, especially when you are using a torch, and ashes are much harder to corral.)

Step nine:

Take the charcoal (or ashes if you managed to do that without losing any) and bury them in the earth. In the case of winter, frozen ground and snow, bury it in the snow in a place where it will lie undisturbed until spring when you can properly bury it.

Know that it is done.

m1thr0s

02-02-2007, 10:12 PM

yayyy!!!
very cool...thanks Ratatosk!

m1thr0s

MythMath

02-02-2007, 10:20 PM

http://forums.abrahadabra.com/image.php?u=167&dateline=1170471950
Ratatosk, who...? I don't see no Ratatosk...

Ci Celli Ddu

02-02-2007, 10:40 PM

Yeah, thanks for that, Ratatosk :)

Talkingfox

02-03-2007, 12:08 AM

Great stuff Ratatosk!

I DO feel the need to bring up an additional requisite to runic sygil workings.
Aesthetics are vital. It's not enough to simply cut in the runes. The created sygil must have a shape/balance/movement that holds an attraction for the user.

My personal signature rune looks like a snake on a tree...to my eyes anyways

Kain

02-03-2007, 07:49 AM

Great stuff indeed Ratatosk...

You know, my first contact with the runes actually was through sigilwork. Back in the day, my technique of choice would be to build a subtle/energy construct that would intensely resonate with my intent. Then, I would "ask" the construct what would be it's "name" in graphical terms, so as I could "call" it through that. Something resonant that I could successfully take with me to my physical environment for further forcus and empowerment. This freestyle sigil-creation technique allowed for a particularly good resonance between the subtle construct and the symbol used, not usually found in more artificial techniques. I kept a record of the symbols I was presented with and it was a very long time after that when I first saw the futhark runes in a book, when I realized the immense similarities a lot of the symbolical "names" of my intents had with those runes. By seraching further, a lot of the runes I had drawn unconsciously also had the exact same meaning behind them with the historical futhark.

Very interesting techniques put forth in this thread everyone!

Kain

Talkingfox

02-03-2007, 08:06 AM

I had a very similar experience as a youngster, Kain...but without any kind of subtle understandings of what I was doing of course. :no: It's what lead me to get in depth w/ the runes.

Hmmmm speaking of resonances I noticed that we've failed to mention the singing into action of the runeword created...

m1thr0s

02-05-2007, 03:51 AM

I've been doing a little backgrounding on this term Sleight of Mind and found this little article which may be useful: Sleight of Mind (http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/som.html)

This principle appears to have been expounded upon a great deal more than the last time I encountered it, which was some years ago, hence I was not entirely comfortable with my own criticisms of the term. Things evolve, and I realized this might be the case with regards to this term as well.

While I do not see anything here thus far that comes as any particular news to me personally, I think that this may be useful to many others in general. The Chaos Matrix Library (http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos_all.php) has quite a few very good articles in my view...

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

02-05-2007, 04:21 AM

m1thr0s

02-05-2007, 04:47 AM

I tend to focus more on the mechanics of "how" to set these kinds of things in motion and don't belabor the "what" so much myself, but everything has its place. Understanding how to position the mind is as important to a practitioner of magick as knowing how to position the body is to a martial artist. At the same time, I am always skeptical of "paralysis by analysis", and I do think that at some point one needs to cease-and-desist with all the theoretical crap and get down to some form of direct experimentation.

What to do is a difficult set of choices as most things committed to instruction format at all are partial informations at best and much of it is overrated from the outset. I have ultimately discovered that the most knowledgable of instructors already know this and will tend to give you just enough to piss you off in the final analysis and force you to revamp the entire process to your liking...or perhaps more correctly to what actually works for you.

A curious paradox, since it isn't really the case that there are no reliable guidelines or that everything is only based in "subjectivity" per se. Rather I think that legitimate masters of their various crafts are strong enough to recognize the gaps left hanging in their own systemologies and are simply not willing to pass a thing on as perfected that may still have a certain amount of finishing work left to be attended to.

Eventually we arrive at things that really cannot be developed much further in this immediate universe and those things become the science of tomorrow, not requiring so much of any master to account for them as they will by then make a perfect acccounting of themselves.

m1thr0s

Napsteria

02-05-2007, 06:17 AM

When you use the word "best" this might apply to several possible contexts, best in terms of immediate results, best in terms of the big picture (or all possible results including the unexpected), best for your mental health and a few other possibilities...

I can only answer for myself: Either immediate and powerful "holy ....!" results with at least some remaining mental health OR good stable long-term results with improved mental health would be two different paths I could go, depending on the intent of the operation itself, I suppose.

But here's the deal as I see it: Once you have laid in all of your instructions on the talisman, that aspect of "focused intent" is a done deal and you need to summons the confidence to know that and accept that. In part this comes from experience that yields certain earth-wisdoms about such things. Now a talisman can be used in two important ways and it is the second way that Chaos Magicians are seemingly typically oblivious to. The first way of course is Ritualistic...you build it...you charge it...you do something with it and that's that. In that event you walk away clean and - not so much "forget about it" as assume the deed as done. m1thr0s!! That is something that I've read in books for years (I have that Carroll book with the Sleight of Mind definitions) and friends have also tried to tell me this, and I have heard it, understood it consciously, but not totally deeply. Your description above probably filled in the missing gaps for me, because I almost could hear the "CLICK" when the pieces fit together. Thank you!

If you are sort of interested in the overall process and wish to explore that further, then this is really your first serious magickal experiment and you should start a journal and begin keeping tabs on it and every important thing you learn corresponding to it. So it can serve as a kind of impetus to "higher learning" and also allows you to work on charging it over a longer period of time. Do you think that even a beginner would be advised to do that with a talisman such as the "rat killing" geomantic-symbol based jupiter Kamea?

Just so that you don't think you have typed all this in vain, I'd like to inform you that I've experimented with everything you have written so far, made the "rat killer" Kamea nicely by hand on printer paper, added the astrological and planetary correspondences in each square taken from my Agrippa "3 books" book, then ritually meditated on it (nice symmetry!) to scry/install it, used the twin-pentagram method to charge it and having no mantra/word it was made silently. Not sure if that klicked. Then used your circle+triangle grounding technique after which kicked in quite nicely. The whole operation was embedded within standard rituals, just because I felt like it. The talisman is now wrapped in silk until I know what to do with it.

This has inspired me on many levels. Not exactly what I had expected from commenting in a "give me a work"-thread. :)

Napsteria

m1thr0s

02-05-2007, 10:10 AM

that's great news Napsteria! Thanks for reporting this back to me (and us). I have experimented with various other grounding techniques and always returned to the one I gave you. Somehow everything about it just seems to hold the line for me year after year after year.

Do you think that even a beginner would be advised to do that with a talisman such as the "rat killing" geomantic-symbol based jupiter Kamea?I can't really see why not, save only that it is more potent than it looks since I have trimmed it down to its bare essentials. As such it is more of a developmental talisman than a project-specific one. It's the kind of thing where the more you work with it the more stuff it will reveal. The only real risk I could foresee might be in dismissing it lightly, but there's not a lot that can be done for that, save a general sort of caution.

There is also a "go" command corresponding to it...a magickal "sending forth" action that allows you to fire it off something like a gun. You can do this with any "charged" talisman actually, but you should first settle upon some formula to be applied to the astorisk points I would think.

so far so good then...

m1thr0s

Napsteria

02-05-2007, 10:33 AM

Perhaps I should add that I had the Kamea with the geomantics and the astrological/planetary symbols, but not the double circle around it with the asterisks and neither the twin-pentagram because that one I projected during the "charge". I thought you said it would not have to be on the physical. [Edit: will the operation be affected by the lack of circles/asterisks?]

This thread has almost become a Jupiter-Kameas thread, apart from the one lucid and very useful post about Runes.

Would be very useful to know something about how to work with other intents apart from jupiterian ones. Could you say something about RC sigils and the other Kameas please, I had some other questions as well a few pages back which at least for me would very nicely fill up some gaps in current understanding. Whenever you have the time to do so, of course!

Napsteria

m1thr0s

02-06-2007, 02:43 AM

You might want to take a look at this page: Rose Cross Sigil Creator (http://www.wisdomsdoor.com/wb/hwb-sigil.shtml) The quality isn't so hot but the basic concept is there.

There is a degree of disingenuousness that creeps into many western traditions primarily through omission that runs so deep that many people that teach these things are themselves completely unaware of it. Many western occult ideas, terms and methods have in fact been imported from the east without ever having credited their sources properly. Western Occultism borrows the term "Akasha" from Sanskrit for instance. In the so-called western occult "tatvas" it represents the element of Spirit, but at origin it is the Sanskrit word for "sound" and corresponds to the 5th, or Throat Chakra. Similarly, the Chakras are all represented by various Lotus forms, each petal having its own name or mantric attributions in that system...a system that is very old and predates the Golden Dawn by at least 5000 years. The Rosy Cross system borrows heavily against this tradition, with its 22 qabbalistic petals.

It is important to understand these things in order to arrive at a balanced overview of the kinds of information being communicated as especially "spiritual" in some way, often implying that it should be held as sacrosanct and never even questioned. If you follow that lead, you will have to make do with half-knowledge at every pass and may never reach a point where you are able to determine for yourself what is right or wrong, what is greater or lesser, appropriate or inappropriate and so on. The choice is up to you. In the information age, there are very few good excuses for "sacred cows" per se.

Having said that...there are all kinds of ways to create perfectly legitimate magickal sigils based on very similar kinds of logics and generalized techniques. It's really a wide-open pallette to the innovative artist and there are many historical methodologies to choose from as well as custom designs you might fashion from scratch. The general rule here is that the better you understand underscoring principles and the broader your range of understanding may be, the more effective you will tend to be at creating original sigils/talismans that carry a certain inherent authority about them. In this respect, there are no real shortcuts to really knowing the terrain itself from the gulleys and gulches to the plains, plateaus, peaks, etc, on as global a scale as you can manage.

So my advise to anyone who really enjoys Sigil as a magickal form is to study it all...study as much as you can lay your hands on and don't limit yourself to just one cultural perspective. Sigil is an innately human impulse, older than all the organized religions of earth. As such, you are both entitled and required to stretch your mind out globally if you ever hope to grasp the real essence of it all.

m1thr0s

Napsteria

02-08-2007, 03:02 AM

That last post was quite deep.. of course you could write 100 posts about this topic, and without us actually doing the work it would result in nothing. The direction pointers you give us will only change our direction of travelling if we have the inclination to make an effort to "paddle".

At least I hope you feel happy that you definitely have pushed me into a new constructive direction magically. I have been reading some of your articles as well, and then I went back to reread your posts in this thread and they became even more clear.

I tried in vain to construct magical triangles for Jupiter, because I wanted to see how sigils drawn on the triangle would differ from the ones drawn on the Kamea, but now I realize that it can not be done. I guess it would have been mentioned all over the Net if there were triangular Kameas..

I also tried to find a similar structure as your geomantic mapping on the Jupiter Kamea for Sol and Venus, but I have not found any good 36 or 49 symbols to map onto them. Only idea I had was to somehow map the 7 planets on the Venus one, but my only lead went nowhere.

On the other hand, I discovered a nice symmetry in the Venus Kamea which is similar to the symmetry in Jupiter, a symmetry which only partially exists in the Sol Kamea. Surprising, as Sol intuitively would have perfect symmetry, being the center, not just in the Solar system but also on the Tree of Life. It is however quite likely I missed something!

Napsteria

Napsteria

02-10-2007, 07:03 AM

There is also a "go" command corresponding to it...a magickal "sending forth" action that allows you to fire it off something like a gun. You can do this with any "charged" talisman actually, but you should first settle upon some formula to be applied to the astorisk points I would think.
I still don't understand that part even after re-reading it several times. Where can I read more about what it means, or could you explain a little please?

Napsteria

m1thr0s

02-10-2007, 10:16 AM

I still don't understand that part even after re-reading it several times. Where can I read more about what it means, or could you explain a little please?ah well...this is what comes of relying too heavily on your own rhetoric I suppose. As I tried to qualify, a "go" command is a formalized "sending-forth" sort of action typically employed in ritual magick operations. I can't remember what they call it...I just call it a "go"... It typically consists of two parts: a "cocking" action and a "firing" action, sometimes performed by placing the back of the thumb to the mouth and then sharply directing it forward, leaning into it (if standing)... It can also be used in talismatic operations to direct a spell or charge outwardly.

m1thr0s

Napsteria

02-11-2007, 12:46 PM

I am still a bit confused I have to confess. :o

I've never heard about anything like that. That "go" command is particular for the geomantic filled jupiter kamea or you can use that one for any talisman, and what is the difference in results between doing and not doing it?

Napsteria

m1thr0s

02-11-2007, 01:12 PM

I've never heard about anything like that. That "go" command is particular for the geomantic filled jupiter kamea or you can use that one for any talisman, and what is the difference in results between doing and not doing it?hmmm...well I didn't invent that one. The go is useful when you want to emphasize aggressive action mainly. You can use this action with anything that is contained in any way. Imagine the idea of creating a ball of energy and then tossing it in a specific direction or at a specific target. It's good to use command words that can be effectively reduced or concentrated and then exploded outward. So let's use a nonsensical example: the word "Blast!" will be our go word. To implement this word you first have to create something to be sent. Using Circle & Triangle you initiate the usual Center (circle) and Ground (triangle) but just before the drop (A-th-h) you insert the go word. The first part pulls the energy in tight (cocking). So let's use the word "Bt" and as you pronounce that word you raise the back of your thumb to your lips. When it feels ready you "explode" (firing) the word outward, this time pronouncing the whole word "Blast!", extending your thumb and whole arm forward, followed immediately by closing your grounding action and including a final close to even things out...(note: don't "dart" it out like a nincompoop...calm and focused extension...think "deliberation")...

That's probably about as clear as I can make it and as always there are possible variations but this is all standard evokation form really. It becomes a lot more coordinated and clear through actual practise. This is one of those deals that you have to learn physically to master it...like if I was trying to explain how to chuck a football or something. Until you actually have done it a few times at least, the explanation will seem to have holes in it. You kind of have to plug those holes with coordinated action.

edit: ever see "Dune"? The "wyrding way" was based on this principle, only you aren't using their silly little amplification devise...just your mind...just focused concentration...many people prefer a wand or some other prop. I find the thumb works just fine and it's classical form anyway.

note: it will probably feel a little silly until you've worked it in. Think of it as a meditation excercise and don't get too wrapped up in whether you have shattered the glass or whatever you are experimenting with. Eventually the glass will shatter, but the main thing is learning to control the energy at one remove. There are obvious parallels here with learning to focus & direct Chi energy.

m1thr0s

The White Pearl

02-11-2007, 09:47 PM

Thanks guys,
Just read through this thread and my brain exploded, pen leaked all over my hand befor I noticed.OHH the possibilities....Wow great work.

m1thr0s

02-11-2007, 10:24 PM

coolbeans...

let's return to our "nonsensical" go word for a minute and try something a little more sophisticated. This time we want to employ the strength and intelligence of an established archetype to facilitate the "flight" action itself. How would we do this?

Pulling at random, let's take the Egyptian godform Behutet as a highly qualified archetype concerning matters both of flight as well as conflict. To utilize this archetype, we need only employ it's name synchronized with our go action.

So again, when we "cock" or "load" the go we use the short form "Bt", but this time when we "fire" or "unload" it we pronounce the word "Behutet!", and voila, we have an "adorned" go command carrying the authority of the "Winged Disk" of ancient Egypt...

All the while "focused intent" is still what makes all of this work...it works because we say it works...we say it works because it works (both intuitively & logically). Some circular logics are smarter than others.

http://abrahadabra.com/images/behutet01.gif
Behutet (of Thebes)

edit: one of the reasons we might want to employ archetypes in this capacity is that they have different kinds of special attributes that we might wish to utilize in different situations. Ptah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptah) is "the opener" and can therefor facilitate the overcoming of obstacles, whereas Tahuti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahuti#Thoth_in_more_recent_times) might be better suited to knowledge and the expediting of contracts and so on. The go command is a highly versatile command that can be adapted to any kind of special circumstances with the right finesse. The utilization of archetypes, while not absolutely vital, is nevertheless a very dynamic addition to things but comes at a certain price. One cannot effectively work with an archetype without assuming some of its qualities and there are certain risks involved with their misuse as well. By in large we return to the whole idea of using these techniques primarily to enhance our own understandings, but also, insofar as it might be possible, to increase our overall odds of success.

As a matter of interest, the most neutral go command I am aware of within the context of the Center & Grounding operation as I have outlined it is HV (to load) - HVA! (to fire), typically pronounced HU - HUA!. This corresponds to the 4-fold AHVH which is identifyable to the Man Line in Trigrammaton and is the general name of the Triangle itself in this particular operation. It's always good to have a reasonably neutral baseline against which to guage other possible candidates in this regard. I have worked extensively with Pt - Ptah! (as outlined elsewhere) and more recently with Ng - Ningishzidda! as well as a few others. I am actually still exploring the latter...it's very subtle and rather hard to read but very powerful...rather deadly actually...not necessarily recommended for just any casual sort of operation. These things can backfire, so I won't pretend they can't. Some of these archetypes are extremely old and deeply embedded in the human psyche. You don't want to fire this gun stupidly, but there is no reason not to explore the go-command itself. It's one of the really interesting aspects of talismatic magick.

m1thr0s

Logos

02-14-2007, 01:40 PM

A sigil can be anything from a dozen roses to a loved one on Valentine's Day to a bottle of beer sitting in front of you to an analogy emphasizing a relationship between two relationships. (What is a dozen roses to a loved on Valentine's Day but an emphasis upon a relationship?)

I would suggest starting with the realization that you create sigils on a regular basis because it is that kind of realization that makes "out-of-the-way" sigils more accessible and therefore more magical.

-Logos

m1thr0s

02-14-2007, 02:31 PM

It's funny you bring that up Logos since I am just now starting to sketch out a book outline on this subject and of course one of the first things you want to address is "what is a talisman?". I have elected not to attempt a bullet list since it would easily wrap around the moon and back several dozen times before it was even half completed. There is literally nothing that is NOT a talisman when it gets right down to it...there are only degrees of "focused intent" to belabor a (still useful) phrase...

Sigils are even worse...literally every letter of every alphabet ever devised...scribbles and scrawls...doodles...you name it.

m1

Napsteria

02-20-2007, 08:15 PM

For those interested, I still didn't do the "find best investments" Talisman as it was mainly an example, although I did invest a significant amount a few days ago based 90% on good thinking and 10% dowsing.

I still don't really understand how the "go" operation works, and how exactly to visualize the "flight" etc. I tend to think "it's done" at some point (and sometimes smile at that moment). Sometimes I feel a rush up my spine. Is that similar?

Returning now to a point early in this thread, if I may.

I was asked if I had a particular intelligence in mind for the operation. I answered "no" in order to make the thread easier to read.

To make things a little more rounded, suppose my intent is "find how to best improve my practical results with the Goetia spirits", and that I wish to use the planetary intelligence of the planet most fit for this intent. For instance if it is Sol, then Nachiel, or if it is Mercury, then Tiriel, or Saturn then Agiel etc.

Possible manifestations I would like to leave open, such as me starting to do aerobics to increase my personal energy, or take a meditation class to improve my focus, or find a teacher IRL who is expert at practical applications of the Goetias etc.

How would you find the correct planet, and how would you construct the talisman using the classic Agrippa seal of the planetary intelligence together with the sigilized intent?

Napsteria

m1thr0s

02-20-2007, 08:34 PM

I have no confidence in Solomonic Sigils at all so I will have to leave that end of things to someone else. There are various books available on this subject however. Keep in mind that you can always combine elements of 2 or more things into one as the need arises. In other words, you can run a sigil within a sigil within a sigil etc, or also extrapolate elements and recombine them with a certain degree of caution and attention to detail.

m1thr0s

Napsteria

02-20-2007, 08:48 PM

When you say Solomonic Sigils, do you mean for the Goetia spirits or for the planetary intelligences? The latter are based on the Kameas entirely, used the old Aiq Beker method.

Napsteria

m1thr0s

02-20-2007, 11:13 PM

Napsteria

02-21-2007, 11:42 AM

How would you like to rephrase my question in order to want to answer it? Remove stuff that you dislike. :)

m1thr0s

02-21-2007, 02:03 PM

How would you find the correct planet, and how would you construct the talisman using the classic Agrippa seal of the planetary intelligence together with the sigilized intent?Sigils & Talismans are part art, part science, so you really have to do a certain amount of experimenting and drafts of various ideas you might have to come up with stuff you like. Historically the Seals of the Planets are stylized symbols loosely corresponding to their respective Kameas but not as technically accurate as the Sigils identifying the "Intelligence" attributed to each planet. There are no code keys to the Seals of the Planets that I have ever seen, so we have no way to determine if there might have been some formula behind them but the odds are that there are not, just based on their appearance.

Determining what planet to work with in a given operation might be rooted in a number of different factors. You may feel that a certain operation falls within the natural jurisdiction of a planet owing to its nature. There are guidelines we sort of regard as generic standards but nothing is etched in stone. So another approach might simply be working with a planet you happen to have a special affinity for, Venus, or Mars or Luna tend to be popular choices etc. There is nothing wrong with this.

It is possible to superimpose talismanic structures on top of each other in layers and they don't have to share space in the same squares necessarily. You can place a larger square inside a smaller one just by drafting the smaller one on a larger scale for instance. There's just all kinds of possibilities.

The general rule when working with an intelligence as an ally or guide in any way is to give it the position of honor, ie, flanking to the outside anything else that might be constructed to the inside. This is usually done by writing its name in 4 directions all linked together at corners:

A-B-R-A-X-A-S
B • • • • • • A
R • • • • • • X
A • • • • • • A
X • • • • • • R
A • • • • • • B
S-A-X-A-R-B-A

This conveys a sense of omnipresence bestowed upon your magickal ally.

In this case you would be using a 7 x 7 grid to the outside but you could have anything at all on the inside...it wouldn't have to be smaller than 7 x 7. You can also use shading as an element so that if you wanted to incorporate a planetary seal this could be done in a light grey color (for instance) which would serve as a kind of background glyph that would not visually obstruct whatever you superimposed over it. You can also employ magickal fonts that embellish the sigil and add additional import (daggers font works great with Mars or Sol for instance).

It's not only ok to be creative, it is absolutely required. The more personal energy you have invested into a talisman, the more likely it is to be effective.

m1thr0s

MythMath

02-21-2007, 03:52 PM

m1thr0s,

Do all these things
clank and jangle
in your cloak
as you walk...?

Thanks for sharing...

MM

PS - you should write a book...

m1thr0s

02-21-2007, 05:22 PM

well thanks MM. I suppose I probably don't take compliments as well as I should but I do appreciate it anyway. Since I have been into talismans since I was a kid and have studied quite a lot about them and developed a whole system of magick around them, yeah, a book is probably in order by now...

I have left out one important detail thus far regarding crafting talismans in any kind of paper (or paper-like medium) which is that it is considered superior form to craft these front-and-back, so that the backside is a mirror image of the frontside. Some people argue that leaving this undone allows for a sort of legal loophole for interfering elements to creep in...others argue that it allows for the talisman to become grounded out so that it does not retain whatever charge you impart to it. Either argument has its merits but the most compelling thing artistically is that a talisman crafted this way looks & feels like something entirely unique, so it just has the overall aura you might expect from a magickal talisman. It's probably not actually a critical factor, depending on other variables but it will feel a great deal less like a simple drawing done this way. Paper talismans should also be treated in some kind of oil before use. Abramelin Oil is a good standard but you can also use scents corresponding to those elements being employed in the talisman itself. A little research will usually reveal what scents may be especially relevant to what intelligences, forms, planets etc... Oil will also facilitate burning. Staples, tape, etc should never be used. 3D Talismans can be stitched together or cut and folded to allow for tuck-in tabs etc... If you stitch...try to use completely natural ingredients such as a fine hemp twine or organic cotton thread. Attention to detail is always very important in this business.

m1thr0s

Naomi

07-23-2007, 12:32 AM

Goetia, yes, but also that whole archetypal structure in general. Abramelin's stuff is a broader base of Qabbalistic Magic, though he still comes back to Solomonic stuff in the end. Abramelin draws to the same system of Angels et al as we find in Solomonic Magic...I have no interest in Abrahamic religion or its magic and generally consider the vast majority of it to be fraudulent. For some this makes no difference. For me it does.

Planetary intelligences in themselves are of a different order of things than Angels and everything associated to this. Planets are real and their presence is tangible and not dependant upon any one heirarchy to impact nature in this world.

There are plenty of resources around to help you with any of that stuff though. In my view these things constantly allude to a logic they do not in fact possess, so at the end of the day it's all just another belief system rooted in nothing truly substantial. We don't even really know that there was an actual Solomon as far as I can tell which means that most of the stuff that has been compiled in his name is a mish-mash of charismatic psychodrama loosely based in principles we can never actually get a good look at. I simply don't trust any of it, though I am aware that many of its qualities actually belong to a higher order of magick we have very likely never even seen in this world...something still painstakingly evolving from its own ashes so to speak.

m1thr0s

I am currently undertaking a working that has probably not been attempted very often, at least successfully, and that is the summoning of every single spirit in the SHEMHAMPHORASH in a single night. In addition to this I am also recoloring and annotating the entire thing using a nice copy (Peterson's) using what I have learned through them, and of them. It's quite fascinating! I just had a delightful conversation with Vassago!

I wanted to add here I just colored in his two moons red, which he didn't like at first but then he realized what I was doing with them and then he was satisfied.

They all assert King Solomon was a real person, although, I don't think he was much of a nice guy, in fact from what I'm hearing he was a complete asshole, to them, especially!

What makes this working pretty fairly outrageous is that I am asking them all for something individually. Next year should be pretty fascinating I think.

I think they are designed to be used all at once.

Anyways that's just a little insight from a Goetic magicians perspective....they are earth/underworld based entities after all, and the underworld itself is not properly understand by humans as a whole so it's all foggy.

Anyways great discussion see - this is why I don't hang out on Occult Forums anymore in any kind of reasonable capacity. I'm too scary!

m1thr0s

07-23-2007, 02:02 AM

The goetian system is technically a lie, but if you are ok with that (and some are) it may be useful to know that its survival is rooted in the fact that it parallels a much greater truth corresponding to The Twelve Banners. In other words, its topology is sound where its vocabulary is not.

Though you may (or may not) already know this, the Abrahadabra tools that are standing in as backup to this operation (insofar as you have already been using them) are sufficient to rip ass on any bullshit stemming from the more ill-dignified characteristics of goetia as it has been published for the general consumption of morons.

In essence, you have leave under this authority to rename the Demons at your discretion (or not) if it turns out to be any advantage to do so in any way. In some instances it may. The bottom line is that ALL their names are in fact corruptions from the first principles that justify their organization to begin with. This is typical of YHVH shit to tell you the truth. We see this garbage occuring all the time with this stuff.

The essential breakdown is this. The word of Perfection is an Alchemical Master Formula that divides into 3 Primary Planes. Each of these planes allows for an arrangement of 24 unique elemental spellings, or combinations of 4 letters following the general rule of bigrammaton, ie, A Father value, A Mother value, A Son value and a Daughter value. Traditionally the Mother and Daughter values have borrowed the same letters in practice, reducing the count to 12 Banners instead of 24, but if we relax that standard and instead allow for a unique letter assignment in all instances, the tally works out to 24. 24 x 3 = 72 and this is where the true shemhamphorasch finds its validation alchemically.

What we find coming from the classical hebrew gibberish is a lot of convoluted garble pertaining to so-called hidden patterns within certain sacred texts but this is completely unbelievable bullshit from beginning to end. This in itself would never in a million years be strong enough to support an actual angelic/demonic enginery of any kind. What has happened is that this "pattern" just happens to coincide with an underscoring topological contance within the Word of Perfection itself that can, in fact, support this kind of thing.

Anyway...just a little anarchistic info to take with you on the road. It's an interesting experiment. Just be aware that you have more ammunition and bigger guns at your disposal than you may know about.

Good luck Naomi...sounds intriguing...

edit: my memory is a little fuzzy on all of this but it occurs to me that Solomon never actually assigned their names but rather demanded of them to know them, one by one, along with their "masters" and assorted other dirt that would serve to keep them under control. All of this was reinforced with the threat of YHVH standing somewhere in the background, ready to attack and torture them as was his pleasure to do in those days. But it's all kind of psycho-city if you understand the elemental dynamics involved. They would have had no reason to fear YHVH...they ARE YHVH...more correctly AHYHVH...divided into segments...

So you tell me then...just exactly who was playing who here?

m1thr0s