View Full Version : A question about Goetia?
As far as I've looked at the different sigils it doesn't seem to fit my purpose. But anything valuable inside the whole area of the 72 spirits of Goetia? My point is that any child's fantasy could take a life-like form in this world with an appropriate constant power input.
Just wondering and asking from you more experienced dabblers if it's soemthing that would benefit me or if I could go on skipping the area alltogether. It's not like I do not have anything to do heh :cool:
Moonburn
05-03-2010, 06:26 PM
The Goetia is kind of like Jazz. It's kind of aimless, but it can end up in some craaaazy awesome places. Like all well known grimoires, it sprung totally from the minds of its many creators. If you choose to go with it, then go with the Peterson translation. It's a much better approximation of the crazy crazy fanfiction cluster fuck that was occult grimoiredom.
A good chunk of the entities were sentient before any of it was thought of... some were not. Others never really had the roles filled.
The Goetia is kind of like Jazz. It's kind of aimless, but it can end up in some craaaazy awesome places. Like all well known grimoires, it sprung totally from the minds of its many creators. If you choose to go with it, then go with the Peterson translation. It's a much better approximation of the crazy crazy fanfiction cluster fuck that was occult grimoiredom.
A good chunk of the entities were sentient before any of it was thought of... some were not. Others never really had the roles filled.
Well tested them on an unconscious level all the 72 sigils in one sweep. I thikn one of them answered lol and was a bit flbbergasted and even pissed off at me for diong it in that way. Was a bit uhm embarrassed to explain to it that it was a test :)
Mr.Smith
05-04-2010, 10:05 AM
As far as I've looked at the different sigils it doesn't seem to fit my purpose. But anything valuable inside the whole area of the 72 spirits of Goetia? My point is that any child's fantasy could take a life-like form in this world with an appropriate constant power input.
Just wondering and asking from you more experienced dabblers if it's soemthing that would benefit me or if I could go on skipping the area alltogether. It's not like I do not have anything to do heh :cool:
Hi Amur,
By the sound of it, you would probably benefit from skipping the area altogether. Goetia can be extremly dangerous. Out of curiousity though, what kind of magikal techniques do you work with?
LVX
Mr.Smith
Hi Amur,
By the sound of it, you would probably benefit from skipping the area altogether. Goetia can be extremly dangerous. Out of curiousity though, what kind of magikal techniques do you work with?
LVX
Mr.Smith
None.
Mr.Smith
05-04-2010, 02:21 PM
None.
Why?
Why?
I am what I am and I will be what I will Be...
Luke Saint
05-04-2010, 08:43 PM
Goetia can be extremly dangerous.
So can women be, so can a tuna club. My point is that generalized statements of this sort aren't very helpful Mr. Smith.
My point is that any child's fantasy could take a life-like form in this world with an appropriate constant power input.
Precisely. And if this thing doesn't fit your purpose then you can, and probably should, skip it altogether--IMO anyways.
So can women be, so can a tuna club. My point is that generalized statements of this sort aren't very helpful Mr. Smith.
Precisely. And if this thing doesn't fit your purpose then you can, and probably should, skip it altogether--IMO anyways.
Well more of a scientists anyway but perhaps I should look into the basics of it :)
I've studied and worked with goetia, probably mainly because it is deemed 'counterculture'. I am innately suspicious and curious when people say "don't do/study/think XYZ" it makes me unconsciously regard XYZ as something I need to engage and figure out if i want to obtain "occult knowledge". Plus, it's my general feeling that "general consensus" is another word for "contagious idiocy", so I feel almost obligated to go figure out what it is that people are failing to understand and denouncing in ignorant fear. I would imagine I'm not the only occultist with this slant in their personality. It is interesting to me, that oftentimes the people who say that goetia is dangerous are the same people who say it doesn't work... which speaks more of their feelings and social training than any knowledge or experience.
But also, it's not a bad fit for me. Mainly because I seem to have a lifelong knack for working with "demons" (and i use that butchered term very loosely).
Basically Ars Goetia is the first section of the Lesser Keys of Solomon. It's worth noting here, that it has nothing really to do with Solomon, except that in the 16th and 17th centuries CE, jewish mysticism was all the rage in occult circles, so it was popular to tap into that framework when introducing new materials. It is likely a derivative work of the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum (gotta love that 'pseudo' tacked on there, as if kissing the church's ass). Anyway, it's a list of "demons" or more accurately "a list of demons as a typical 16th century european student of occultism would imagine them".
Honestly many of the "demons" or "lords in hell" are in fact just the benign deities of cultures which neighbored the ancient israelies. And as you might surmise, those wacky monotheists hated pretty much everybody around them, and every religion that wasn't their own special "really real truth" brand name ideology. So you end up with things like Bael (a misspelled Ba'al) portrayed as a lord in hell under satan, etc. when in reality Ba'al was just a canaanite fertility god.
That brings me to my next point about goetia... gross misunderstandings about the nature of the historical beings listed. If you go trying to evoke Bael for example, and you're using various protections based in part on jewish mysticism, and incorporating things like "YHVH", and you're praising him as a lord in hell, etc... I mean, seriously, If I were Ba'al I would not be amused at someone misspelling my name, telling me I'm some sort of 'scary bad guy', and evoking me using methods partially based on mystical beliefs from a culture who committed genocide on my own people and wiped them off the face of the earth, supposedly by YHVH's command, so they could have their 'promised land'. If Ba'al actually were of bad temperment, he'd wring every last neck who insulted him thusly. But he's apparently a pretty easy going sort who just doesn't care that much about what the hairless monkeys do.
Anyway, it is a workable system in that you can evoke nonhuman entities using the methods outlined within it. As for exactly what entities you'll actually end up evoking? I tend to think that you'll end up with something that suits your expectations, since your expectations will be projecting strongly into your working, and affecting what resonance of being you end up channeling. In other words, you may not really be evoking the brand name trademark entity which is listed, but a being which will wear that mask and closely fits the resonance of your expectations imprinted in your working. In this way, the end result is not terribly unlike working with the necronomicon as a magical grimoire.
Dangers... no not really. Seriously, if you want to evoke beings which you think are scary, you will evoke beings which are scary to you. If you try to evoke beings which you think are dangerous, then you will evoke beings which are dangerous to you. You basically evoke whatever it is you are *really* trying to evoke (all ritual trappings and brand names aside). So in this sense, you can evoke something which ends up being a very positive interaction, using *any* method. And you can evoke something which ends up being a very negative interaction, using *any* method, since ultimately what you are really doing, magically, lies underneath the superficial trappings of your method.
As for protections, ritual methodology, etc... use em if you like. Its probably best to do rituals 'right' the first time, and gain experience before tinkering. Myself I don't really work with goetia anymore, but when I did, most of the time, I would do it "freestyle", no props, no ritual, just homing in on an energy signature. easy peasy. My best advice for 'safety' in evocation magic... is to develop an intensely strong and centered sense of self, an intensely deep understanding and awareness of your deeper psychological processes, and learn to recognize the methods & tipoffs of "mind tampering" (some of which are the same as in non-metaphysical hypnosis). As a human, our 'weak point' is the fact that our minds are more than half unconscious, and therefore very malleable and vulnerable. This will serve you better than any ritual method or sigil or trinket. I'd recommend these safeguards not just for scary evocations, but even if you only plan to work with 'whitey lighty' beings. Actually make that ESPECIALLY if you plan to work with whitey lighty beings.
I knew a girl who worked exclusively with goetia, and I mean she worked with it almost constantly. I found her to be very interesting, because her paradigm had shifted considerably as a result of her near constant contact with inhuman intelligences. Also the statements which she would pass on (from the entities) were especially insightful and interesting in content. Her relationship with goetics was very friendly, and had dropped ritual pretenses. Very interesting girl. But really I find most people who work with goetia are looking for some sort of 'scare factor' and they usually just get what they are looking for, and nothing deeper.
Anyway, my philosophy is that if you're curious, then there is really only one cure for that. And really it very rarely actually kills cats, and they have nine lives anyway. If you want to be able to make overly-timid occultists gasp and look at you with concern, then dig in. If not, then yes it is 'skip-able'. I guess it depends on how thorough and complete you want to be in your occult experience repertoire. I'm sure there's plenty who would say that it's a bad grimoire to start on, but I'm not one of them, experience is experience. It's probably a lot more culturally accessible than some of the more genuinely ancient workings out there.
Well if it was aliens that gave goetia I might look into it. And of course aliens are _VERY_ scary to human beings. Imagine something vibrating with an energy that is unknown to the whole planet and perhaps the whole galaxy, that will give you a basic understanding of 'how scary' it can be to meet an alien. Oh the misunderstandings :laugh:
Another thing to remember is that _ANY_ energy looked from within the christian egregore is seen as demonic and will take upon demonic proportions lol...
Thank you very much Kath...
a junk early science system. I believe they are roadmaps to our subconscious mind, useful "reiging in" the part of our minds we quietly do not have control over.
Jewish people were, like most other desert people, suspicious yet welcoming of outsiders (as guests) much of the torah supports this fact. They did not "hate everyone else" and I find your comment offensive as well as anti-semitic.
hehe, I think the writers pulled it out of their arse honestly. in part anyway, it's smattered with bits of older mystical stuff, but it seems to be smattered with it just for mystique and charm, rather than any meaningful connection to older works. But it is a very workable system for contacting & interacting with nonhuman entities. Basically when you use goetia, you're not looking for something 'familiar' instead you're expecting and resonating with something more 'alien' as you put it. I don't think you need goetia to do this, but i suppose it's a decent enough framework for someone to use.
Personally, I am much more interested in nonhuman intelligences than I am in humans/ghosts/thoughtforms/egregore-deities/etc. They're a hell of a lot more interesting to me than more local intelligences. whether you define them as "alien"(In a scifi sense) or just "otherworldly"(in a spiritual sense), I think the end result is similar. I mean, communicating with a non-human fully-independent intelligence is just lightyears ahead of interacting with something like an archetype-egregore-god created by the mob mentality of ancient sheep herders. I'll take a fae/demon/daimon/alien/whatever anyday. I don't find them scary, more like 'comforting' (I'm a little bit misanthropic). That's why even though I don't put much stock in it, I favor goetia over more "theurgic" workings, simply because it is a bit more 'fringe'.
Mr.Smith
05-05-2010, 07:34 AM
I've studied and worked with goetia, probably mainly because it is deemed 'counterculture'. I am innately suspicious and curious when people say "don't do/study/think XYZ" it makes me unconsciously regard XYZ as something I need to engage and figure out if i want to obtain "occult knowledge". Plus, it's my general feeling that "general consensus" is another word for "contagious idiocy", so I feel almost obligated to go figure out what it is that people are failing to understand and denouncing in ignorant fear. I would imagine I'm not the only occultist with this slant in their personality. It is interesting to me, that oftentimes the people who say that goetia is dangerous are the same people who say it doesn't work... which speaks more of their feelings and social training than any knowledge or experience.
But also, it's not a bad fit for me. Mainly because I seem to have a lifelong knack for working with "demons" (and i use that butchered term very loosely).
BasicallyArs Goetia is the first section of the Lesser Keys of Solomon. It's worth noting here, that it has nothing really to do with Solomon, except that in the 16th and 17th centuries CE, jewish mysticism was all the rage in occult circles, so it was popular to tap into that framework when introducing new materials. It is likely a derivative work of the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum (gotta love that 'pseudo' tacked on there, as if kissing the church's ass). Anyway, it's a list of "demons" or more accurately "a list of demons as a typical 16th century european student of occultism would imagine them".
Honestly many of the "demons" or "lords in hell" are in fact just the benign deities of cultures which neighbored the ancient israelies. And as you might surmise, those wacky monotheists hated pretty much everybody around them, and every religion that wasn't their own special "really real truth" brand name ideology. So you end up with things like Bael (a misspelled Ba'al) portrayed as a lord in hell under satan, etc. when in reality Ba'al was just a canaanite fertility god.
That brings me to my next point about goetia... gross misunderstandings about the nature of the historical beings listed. If you go trying to evoke Bael for example, and you're using various protections based in part on jewish mysticism, and incorporating things like "YHVH", and you're praising him as a lord in hell, etc... I mean, seriously, If I were Ba'al I would not be amused at someone misspelling my name, telling me I'm some sort of 'scary bad guy', and evoking me using methods partially based on mystical beliefs from a culture who committed genocide on my own people and wiped them off the face of the earth, supposedly by YHVH's command, so they could have their 'promised land'. If Ba'al actually were of bad temperment, he'd wring every last neck who insulted him thusly. But he's apparently a pretty easy going sort who just doesn't care that much about what the hairless monkeys do.
Anyway, it is a workable system in that you can evoke nonhuman entities using the methods outlined within it. As for exactly what entities you'll actually end up evoking? I tend to think that you'll end up with something that suits your expectations, since your expectations will be projecting strongly into your working, and affecting what resonance of being you end up channeling. In other words, you may not really be evoking the brand name trademark entity which is listed, but a being which will wear that mask and closely fits the resonance of your expectations imprinted in your working. In this way, the end result is not terribly unlike working with the necronomicon as a magical grimoire.
Dangers... no not really. Seriously, if you want to evoke beings which you think are scary, you will evoke beings which are scary to you. If you try to evoke beings which you think are dangerous, then you will evoke beings which are dangerous to you. You basically evoke whatever it is you are *really* trying to evoke (all ritual trappings and brand names aside). So in this sense, you can evoke something which ends up being a very positive interaction, using *any* method. And you can evoke something which ends up being a very negative interaction, using *any* method, since ultimately what you are really doing, magically, lies underneath the superficial trappings of your method.
As for protections, ritual methodology, etc... use em if you like. Its probably best to do rituals 'right' the first time, and gain experience before tinkering. Myself I don't really work with goetia anymore, but when I did, most of the time, I would do it "freestyle", no props, no ritual, just homing in on an energy signature. easy peasy. My best advice for 'safety' in evocation magic... is to develop an intensely strong and centered sense of self, an intensely deep understanding and awareness of your deeper psychological processes, and learn to recognize the methods & tipoffs of "mind tampering" (some of which are the same as in non-metaphysical hypnosis). As a human, our 'weak point' is the fact that our minds are more than half unconscious, and therefore very malleable and vulnerable. This will serve you better than any ritual method or sigil or trinket. I'd recommend these safeguards not just for scary evocations, but even if you only plan to work with 'whitey lighty' beings. Actually make that ESPECIALLY if you plan to work with whitey lighty beings.
I knew a girl who worked exclusively with goetia, and I mean she worked with it almost constantly. I found her to be very interesting, because her paradigm had shifted considerably as a result of her near constant contact with inhuman intelligences. Also the statements which she would pass on (from the entities) were especially insightful and interesting in content. Her relationship with goetics was very friendly, and had dropped ritual pretenses. Very interesting girl. But really I find most people who work with goetia are looking for some sort of 'scare factor' and they usually just get what they are looking for, and nothing deeper.
Anyway, my philosophy is that if you're curious, then there is really only one cure for that. And really it very rarely actually kills cats, and they have nine lives anyway. If you want to be able to make overly-timid occultists gasp and look at you with concern, then dig in. If not, then yes it is 'skip-able'. I guess it depends on how thorough and complete you want to be in your occult experience repertoire. I'm sure there's plenty who would say that it's a bad grimoire to start on, but I'm not one of them, experience is experience. It's probably a lot more culturally accessible than some of the more genuinely ancient workings out there.
Wonderful post Kath. I agree with you completly...well almost (joking about the almost:)), The key thing is exactly as Kath says: Experience is experience. That's how I approach occult study. ONLY believe what you have come to KNOW through your personal experience. Question everything. Goetia by their very nature and egregore will activate many things both consciously and subconsciously in the summoner. Hence the need for caution. In the old grimoirs the cautions have decended into comic book style warnings. But in summoning anything, the magikian needs discipline and focus and a healthy balance of mind and body. A sense of humour also helps!
In LVX
Mr.Smith
Saxarba
05-06-2010, 02:47 PM
I've studied and worked with goetia, probably mainly because it is deemed 'counterculture'. I am innately suspicious and curious when people say "don't do/study/think XYZ" it makes me unconsciously regard XYZ as something I need to engage and figure out if i want to obtain "occult knowledge". Plus, it's my general feeling that "general consensus" is another word for "contagious idiocy", so I feel almost obligated to go figure out what it is that people are failing to understand and denouncing in ignorant fear.I'm the same way, but I think that impulse gets balanced by my need to employ the most effective means. My feeling about Goetia is that there are other ways which accomplish whatever Goetia accomplishes merely as a secondary-effect, just as after thought as it were. There are far greater prizes to claim is another way I might put it.
Saxarba
05-06-2010, 03:00 PM
Jewish people were, like most other desert people, suspicious yet welcoming of outsiders (as guests) much of the torah supports this fact. They did not "hate everyone else" and I find your comment offensive as well as anti-semitic. Nonetheless Jews are a very ethnocentric people, and it does show in their religion. Their god is a jealous one, and they're are the chosen people. You can find this same trend with Tibetans. Yeah, they're friendly, it doesn't mean they don't secretly think they're race is better than yours. Any sort of system these people devise is going to be limited in ways other systems aren't for that very reason. Case in point, its really not an anti-semitic statement from an unbiased religious studies point of view
Saying a tribe is insular and suspicious of outsiders is different than saying they hate everyone else. Racism is intolerable with what the human species is facing. I don't want to hear your fucking excuses. Attack the beliefs, not the people. If Jews are so ethnocentric, why would my multi-millionaire great Latvian Jewish grandfather marry a dark haired Yakima Indian from Washington state?
Or we could go on supposing all sorts of things about the secret thoughts of other cultures. To me it's a waste of time. Why not focus on the shit they actually say publically - at least that is reasonable and helpful.
Nonetheless Jews are a very ethnocentric people, and it does show in their religion. Their god is a jealous one, and they're are the chosen people. You can find this same trend with Tibetans. Yeah, they're friendly, it doesn't mean they don't secretly think they're race is better than yours. Any sort of system these people devise is going to be limited in ways other systems aren't for that very reason. Case in point, its really not an anti-semitic statement from an unbiased religious studies point of view
Of course in the old days clans were clans, cultures were cultures and you defended what you had, nowadays things are different and atleast my own perception of jews is that they are very friendly, like most christians for example. They would happily teach you about their ways and religion if one were to ask them, instead of shrugging you off...
Racism is intolerable with what the human species is facing.
Racism in anyway is a natural human response to something new and unknown an alien. Every culture got this. It's like the matrix and the red woman walking amidst the black suited men, everyone noticed the woman clad in red and what she does, how she walks and so forth, while they black suited men blend into the background....
Being different and being lumped together under a sweeping negative generalization are two completely different scenarios. PLEASE STOP BEING SO CRAZY. Thank you.
Luke Saint
05-07-2010, 03:45 PM
For those interested in Goetia:
http://www.amazon.com/Goetia-Ritual-Book-Kuriakos/dp/1435701941
[don't buy the book, this is a fucking joke! I heard, through an extinct forum, that this guy has no dick...]
Saxarba
05-07-2010, 05:23 PM
I really don't care how Jews are like 'these days' (in making that comment). I was referencing Jewish religion and the Jewish mind set during its genesis. Peoples change because the world changes, but mythic beliefs have a tenacious tendency to not change. Judaism is a very tribally rooted religion, and remains so today. This really isn't a negative observation. I know Jews, some of them have a kind of 'light' about them. They're nice people
m1thr0s
05-09-2010, 02:08 AM
the only thing that very much interests me personally about any of these angelic/daemonic systems is the underlying mathematics. I always come away from these things feeling as though there was at one time a real effort made to encapsulate a working cosmology through a painfully imprecise language at best. Time passes and our technical skills get better and eventually archetypes give way to principles. Through these principles we can re-approach the collective *intelligence* of macrocosm better - more reliably - less egocentrically and/or ethnocentrically etc. But people will still cling to fairy tales and fables so I anticipate it will take some time for these old tomes to disappear for good. They will eventually disappear simply because they are ultimately caricatures of themselves - pseudo-cosmologies really - not true cosmologies at all in any technologically sophisticated sort of way.
In the future we may very well still employ many of these old languages, but we will do so more as a matter of artistic embellishment for the pure pleasure of it - not because we are in any way relying upon them to uphold reality itself...in a sense we will free them and be freed of them as well. That's the kind of difference real knowledge can make. I'm kind of partial to winged dragons and rainbow serpents and all the rest...but I won't bank my literal ass on any of them.
MythMath
05-09-2010, 02:30 AM
the only thing that very much interests me personally about any
of these angelic/daemonic systems is the underlying mathematics.
A system with 72 'names' of 3 'letters' each
will reveal some pretty potent math... ;)
m1thr0s
05-09-2010, 11:05 AM
A system with 72 'names' of 3 'letters' each
will reveal some pretty potent math... http://forums.abrahadabra.images/smilies/wink.gifright...so here's a key to the underscoring principle...write down the symbols for fire, air, water & earth and then start scrambling them around until you get as many variations as possible before running into duplications. This totals 24 unique variations. From the alchemical Word of Perfection, assign an appropriate spelling to each arrangement - in this step distinguishing the letters Hé and Hé as Hé1 and Hé2. 3 divisions x 24 arrangements = 72 unique elemental spellings, or *banners*. Now go through and reduce your Hé's so that each 4-letter word becomes a 3-letter word, since all these words have 2 Hé's each. What remains will be 72 encrypted elemental words...
So...this is a pretty potent matrix built upon tetragrammaton itself...not a huge mystery...any grade-schooler could puzzle it out, yet adult occultists carry on like it was this major esoteric mystery that these daemonic names would seem to carry so much power. Of course they do...the matrix itself is an encrypted form of Tetragrammaton. You could reassign these banners so that each one received the name of a fruit or vegetable and still have a potent magickal system!
We seem to want to deny the physics at every possible turn but it is the underpinning physics that gives these things any real staying power. Otherwise we simply have a chaotic mish-mash of overzealous gibberish. Now, a *conscious* or *controlled* gibberish can actually be a lot of fun but when we fail to grasp the governing dynamic we become victims of our own misguided imaginations. Like inexperienced actors, we forget that the parts we are playing are *projections* - not independent persons at all.
m1
Thank you m1thr0s, your information is invaluable ;)
A system with 72 'names' of 3 'letters' each
will reveal some pretty potent math... ;)
Pretty funny as there is 24 hours / day, make 3 days and it's 72 hours and 3 spins around the planet...
Just a thought that popped up when I was walking to get some food :)
Another thought that popped up would be to search for a semi-regular shape with 24 triangular faces, or then triangular + hexagonal faces. should be a pretty powerful tool in itself...
m1thr0s
05-10-2010, 11:24 AM
one question emerges as a matter of alchemical curiosity - did the inventors of the Goetia know about the Word of Perfection - and if they did - did they also know it sub-divided into 3 parts instead of 2? If they did, we have good reason to imagine that the Goetia was deliberately fashioned on this model. If they did not, then they would seem to have intuited it based on other less evident criterion. Considering that the 4-fold Name of God was the most important word in their entire culture and that a great many individuals spent their entire lifetimes studying it, it doesn't seem all that unlikely that they knew all of this. Yet by way of explanation we are told:
I
I+H
I+H+V
I+H+V+H
=
72
72 five-degree sections = 360 degrees...
...which indeed it does, but this is an interesting coincidence - not the sort of thing one builds whole cosmological continuum around...unless of course that *coincidence* was also known to have a deeper cosmological significance not generally understood by the *uninitiated*...one actually rooted in the *extended* tetragrammaton.
We may never know for sure but it is a very curious sort of mystery...
m1
The more I look at this thing, the more it seems that the 2nd dimension is actually the foundation of topology overall. Which in a way is pretty funny :)
If you think about it, a hexagon, a 2D shape, has 6 points in it, defining the number 6, in 3D it's equivalent is the cube, with 6 faces but 8 points (6+2), and when viewed skewedly forms an hexagon.
The tetraheder a 3D shape comes from the triangle, a 2D shape, it has 4 faces and thus makes up a square when skewedly looking at it, a polychoron has the shape of a pentagon with a pentagram and has 5 faces...
The hexagon again when put into a net webbing fits 'perfectly' into a 2D tiling, you can't do much about it 3-dimensionally tho as there is no 'space left' to fold it into, the same might or might not hold true in 4 dimensions.
MythMath
05-11-2010, 01:23 AM
A system with 72 'combinations' of 3 'digits' each
will reveal some pretty potent math... ;)
Some of you may recall that within the 81 Lo Shu Tones
there are exactly 72 (unique 3-digit combinations) that
have no repeating numbers...
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/72tone999copy.jpg
And that the 9 tones with repeating numbers are the 'repdigits':
111
222
333
444
555
666
777
888
999
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/81SolfeggioDiamond111upNewJencopy.jpg
Naomi, you're not seriously trying to turn this:
Honestly many of the "demons" or "lords in hell" are in fact just the benign deities of cultures which neighbored the ancient israelies. And as you might surmise, those wacky monotheists hated pretty much everybody around them, and every religion that wasn't their own special "really real truth" brand name ideology.into a racial attack.
are you?
tell me you're trollin here.
I 'dislike' every brand of monotheism to follow on AhkenAton's original idea of state-monotheist-religion. I don't care if they're jewish, or arabic, european, or american. they're all fucktards who think they're the super special chosen, and murder death kill anything that disagrees with their socio-psychological cancer (aka dogma). and it has nothing to do with race. If there were beings made entirely out of cotton candy, and I LOVE cotton candy, but they went around saying that eating mustard is a sin, and torturing people to death for using ketsup... i'd call them fucktards too. Anyway, to clarify, in case it's not clear, I don't think *anything* about people of jewish lineage. OR *ANY* other lineage or race or size or shape or sexual orientation, etc. But I do think poorly of people who are members of an ideology which behaves disgustingly to their fellow man.
In the case of ancient judaism, if you were jewish, you were either a member, or you were stoned to death, or you were cleverly quiet about your beliefs. I've read a LOT of ancient literature, and I've never found anything which is nearly as xenophobic or murderous as ancient hebrew writings. it doesn't mean a dang thing about jewishness as a 'race'. I don't even think of 'jewish' as a "race" myself, that's their assertion. I just think they're people of middle eastern features who feel a need to be counted as separate. But if you think the ancient hebrew culture was not wildly xenophobic, then I'd just say read moar.
if an ancient civilization goes out of their way to villainize everything external to themselves... that's xenophobic, even racist, on their part, not mine just because I pointed it out. AND, the sentence "those wacky monotheists hated pretty much everybody around them, and every religion that wasn't their own special "really real truth" brand name ideology." is specifically worded to differentiate between the religious zealots who dominated the ancient hebrew culture, and the people as a race.
at any rate, they went through cycles of being more/less xenophobic in ancient history. at some points in ancient history they're almost friendly, even begrudgingly accepting of mating with gentile critters. I mean, the parable of "the good samaritan" is all about how non-jews are people too. But they went through periods of really extreme xenophobia, far worse than any other culture I can think of. And they did commit genocide as well, advertising it as a holy act instead of feeling an appropriate shame. This sort of behavior, by the way, is something I find to be a symptom of zealotry, not race.
and onto the topic... the idea of figures like Ba'al being considered a "demon" by the ancient hebrews is a reflection of just such a xenophobic hatred. As the canaanites (Ba'al was worshiped in canaan) were the most noteworthy example of the ancient hebrews committing genocide. the only reason we call Bael/Baal a "demon" is because our culture is religiously descended from the ancient hebrews, who hated the canaanites. Or did they kill them all, men women children livestock and pets... because they liked them?
and,
Most of the other jewish "demons" are likewise an expression of ancient hebrew xenophobia projected onto the deities of surrounding cultures.
all of which is rendered moot by the point that if you try to summon a "demon lord in hell", and you actually end up summoning something, you will end up with a fairly scary customer. or at least with an entity which is willing to wear that mask for you. Meanwhile if you summon an ancient canaanite fertility god, you'll end up with something more benign & congenial. regardless of whether they have the same name. nonphysical beings don't even really have phonetic names anyway. just like if asteroids were alive, they wouldn't have any 'names' because there's no fricken sound in space. it's not intrinsic to their own level of existence. ...unless it's an egregore, made by people, or an independent entity wearing a mask to fit our religious notions.
PS ancient judea =/= your grandmother.
PPS nigga please
PPPS also, as you may or may not know, I myself actually have a bit of a weakness for long raven haired super genius women. which around here tend to be jewish, hispanic, or native american.
Some of you may recall that within the 81 Lo Shu Tones
there are exactly 72 (unique 3-digit combinations) that
have no repeating numbers...
Thank you noce again MythMath that was beautiful and I finally got the hang of this area, pretty fun once you think about it :) I think the future language is opening up quite well, though don't know what axioms should be the first roots from where everything grows but the idea is getting clear now atleast :)
one question emerges as a matter of alchemical curiosity - did the inventors of the Goetia know about the Word of Perfection - and if they did - did they also know it sub-divided into 3 parts instead of 2? If they did, we have good reason to imagine that the Goetia was deliberately fashioned on this model. If they did not, then they would seem to have intuited it based on other less evident criterion. Considering that the 4-fold Name of God was the most important word in their entire culture and that a great many individuals spent their entire lifetimes studying it, it doesn't seem all that unlikely that they knew all of this. Yet by way of explanation we are told:
m1
As far as I know about the whole issue surrounding Goetia it was channeled information from some Angelic Beings (ET bells ring in my head atleast) though I'm not sure about this link as I heard it in a chat so might as well be talking about christmas elves here :laugh: The interesting thing is that if we say that 3 days is 72 hours which it is, we get one digit per day to meditate upon. So the whole procedure or meditation would take 216 days to go through, which might even make this an interesting practice, atleast from my viewpoint :)
m1thr0s
05-11-2010, 09:02 PM
As far as I know about the whole issue surrounding Goetia it was channeled information from some Angelic Beings...yeah, that's the story line all right and these bozos keep on telling the same damn story over and over again...xst, mormonism is based on the same f*cking lameass story...
and no - I don't buy any of it. There is a definite structure to this system and the reason it has any relevance to us today is due to that structure...the daemonic names and all of that crap is just window-dressing...adds intrigue and danger which makes the plot more engaging...but it's the structure that makes it all seem *real*...
the paradoxical thing is that I don't really question that it *works* because I attribute that to the structure...on a subconscious level - even at the molecular level
- the whole thing is perfectly synchronous with mind and body itself...what I question is people's interpretations of the phenomena they may be getting...
To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever been able to validate that any so-called *King Solomon* actually existed...I think they do have a King Solomon on the books someplace who was nowhere near as rich or powerful as *the* King Solomon from a completely different time period...so we're dealing in amateur phantasmology here from the get...there is no godamm Solomon and this entire Daemonic Magick hype is a concerted marketing ploy...just another Barnum & Bailey freakshow really...cuz people like to be scared is all...even little kids like ghost stories and so on...it's just human nature and some author we don't even know has devised yet another way to milk it.
ah...but it *works*...and that's the only thing about it even half-assed interesting...it doesn't work because it's real, so why then does it work?
I think it works because its underscoring structure is sound and people just fill in the blanks as they go along...
it *works* because creative intelligence *works*, given the right conditions - which leads us back to structure...
m1
Luke Saint
05-12-2010, 01:10 AM
Pretty funny as there is 24 hours / day, make 3 days and it's 72 hours and 3 spins around the planet...
Cool shit. I should have known that, well, I did, but thanks for bringing that to my immediate awareness Amur. :)
MythMath
05-12-2010, 10:26 PM
I think it works because its underscoring structure is sound
and people just fill in the blanks as they go along...
it *works* because creative intelligence *works*, given
the right conditions - which leads us back to structure...
I agree with this, however...
This 'system of 72' can be considered as a subset,
albeit a significant subset, just shy of the whole set...
72 plus the nine 'repdigits' (or 'rep-values') make
the complete the set of 81 (names/tones/shou)...
And suddenly the whole structure's gone ternary...!!!
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/AscendingTetragramscompresseddarkbg.jpg
:p:p
:p
m1thr0s
05-13-2010, 12:19 AM
true, but you're mixing your tetragrammaton's MM...in the conventional 72 it is important that the whole circle is defined within that logic...not 8/9ths of one. I think that something like the goetia is supposed to be linking to the binary and actually goes no further than this in itself. What you are outlining in the 72/81 is actually something new...not something we have any reason to think would have been going on in anyone's brain when the goetia was created...
24 x 3 = 72 with no hidden remainders. I am fascinated by the 72/81 though but it still looks and feels like an 81 total and not a 72 to me... I have a difficult time seeing that kind of sophistication going on in the goetia itself...could be wrong though...I'd need to see more evidence/examples I think...the 81 feels more lunar to me actually and it would not be difficult or without precedent to push the 27 to 28 days to give us a traditional lunar month...this already occurs in the 729 yearly calendar system for instance...
yeah, that's the story line all right and these bozos keep on telling the same damn story over and over again...xst, mormonism is based on the same f*cking lameass story...
and no - I don't buy any of it. There is a definite structure to this system and the reason it has any relevance to us today is due to that structure...the daemonic names and all of that crap is just window-dressing...adds intrigue and danger which makes the plot more engaging...but it's the structure that makes it all seem *real*...
the paradoxical thing is that I don't really question that it *works* because I attribute that to the structure...on a subconscious level - even at the molecular level
- the whole thing is perfectly synchronous with mind and body itself...what I question is people's interpretations of the phenomena they may be getting...
To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever been able to validate that any so-called *King Solomon* actually existed...I think they do have a King Solomon on the books someplace who was nowhere near as rich or powerful as *the* King Solomon from a completely different time period...so we're dealing in amateur phantasmology here from the get...there is no godamm Solomon and this entire Daemonic Magick hype is a concerted marketing ploy...just another Barnum & Bailey freakshow really...cuz people like to be scared is all...even little kids like ghost stories and so on...it's just human nature and some author we don't even know has devised yet another way to milk it.
ah...but it *works*...and that's the only thing about it even half-assed interesting...it doesn't work because it's real, so why then does it work?
I think it works because its underscoring structure is sound and people just fill in the blanks as they go along.
it *works* because creative intelligence *works*, given the right conditions - which leads us back to structure...
m1
Same story, over and over again, different dressup and makeup, getting pretty boring already imho :laugh:
What I've found out is that too many people experience something and then their interpretion of the phenomenom they take from the herd collective, which has not appropriate mappings towards the experience, which in turn makes many ppl 'experiencing something mystical' turning into fanatic believers of their own cultural meme-religion / spirituality, instead of breaking the experience down in steps and analyzing it from bottom to top and top to bottom.
As far as considering 'afflicting change in the world' it's related to the current morphogenetic fields in relationship to your own emotional power, and unfortunately it seems often that in terms of energy in this country 'logical stuff' just doesn't get the right inertia needed in comparision to dumb emotions. If everything were based on logic instead of emotions we wouldn't be stuck inside all these dumb paradigms that has been forcefed to humanity all-throughout history.
I agree very much that it entices the reptile brain to add something 'dangerous' to the plot, I mean ffs anyone know that a dangerous and mysterious man is freakishly sexy (to women). Which of course is related to it's own logical cause & effects. Marketing ploys indeed, this seems to be the junkyard planet of bad spiritual marketing plots which makes it kinda funny to be here at this moment in time of unveiling,.
Besides great stories are bound to be added with all kinds of spices, from flying horses to supermen riding on comets and what not. I mean it wouldn't be a story without it hehe...
But yeah inside this freakshow I think authentic researchers should egt their own passes instead of being deployed by these 'alien' marketing ploys (or rather souls coming from more civililzed planet selling 'their structure' which might not have anytihng to do with the spirit of this planet in itself.
So yeah Goetia... mmmm 2 systems imho, one is belief which transmutes and converges the force of the belief towards the belief itself (well we all know what happened with Jebus and the world by now, right? (idiot)). The other is pure science lacking any belief, but still works through either unknown or known structures and factors the difference between these two is that belief might work for one but not for the other, but science is pretty universal working and cutting through any idiotic belief (even belief in science itself).
My question is could I make a marketing ploy and make energy out of it by selling horseshit as a holy cleansing to ppl? Been thinking about that for a long time :laugh: Given the right marketing and techniques it would probably work :cool:
Copuldaemon
05-16-2010, 11:08 PM
I must add to this. Whenever people ask Goetia type questions I grow suspicious as if somebody is really doing a survey more so than asking a genuine question.
I feel that whether they're real or fake, from us or around us, they are dangerous. They can hurt you in subtle ways that's very calculated so in time, and the outcome may be more tragic then an all at once confrontation.
So if you work with them, be very, very, very, very careful.
I must add to this. Whenever people ask Goetia type questions I grow suspicious as if somebody is really doing a survey more so than asking a genuine question.
I feel that whether they're real or fake, from us or around us, they are dangerous. They can hurt you in subtle ways that's very calculated so in time, and the outcome may be more tragic then an all at once confrontation.
So if you work with them, be very, very, very, very careful.
Seems to be the workings of spirits anyhow, don't see how Goetia would be different? Did trigger one Goetic demon while snuggling through the sigils, didn't really like my modern approach of evoking it and had to apologize to it for my behavior. I don't see necessarily the darker forces as 'bad' as many people deem them to be, if they are all in harmony with their own nature I think that should be respected. It's the disharmonies that are more dangerous imho...
yeah, that's the story line all right and these bozos keep on telling the same damn story over and over again...xst, mormonism is based on the same f*cking lameass story...
and no - I don't buy any of it. There is a definite structure to this system and the reason it has any relevance to us today is due to that structure...the daemonic names and all of that crap is just window-dressing...adds intrigue and danger which makes the plot more engaging...but it's the structure that makes it all seem *real*...
the paradoxical thing is that I don't really question that it *works* because I attribute that to the structure...on a subconscious level - even at the molecular level
- the whole thing is perfectly synchronous with mind and body itself...what I question is people's interpretations of the phenomena they may be getting...
To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever been able to validate that any so-called *King Solomon* actually existed...I think they do have a King Solomon on the books someplace who was nowhere near as rich or powerful as *the* King Solomon from a completely different time period...so we're dealing in amateur phantasmology here from the get...there is no godamm Solomon and this entire Daemonic Magick hype is a concerted marketing ploy...just another Barnum & Bailey freakshow really...cuz people like to be scared is all...even little kids like ghost stories and so on...it's just human nature and some author we don't even know has devised yet another way to milk it.
ah...but it *works*...and that's the only thing about it even half-assed interesting...it doesn't work because it's real, so why then does it work?
I think it works because its underscoring structure is sound and people just fill in the blanks as they go along...
it *works* because creative intelligence *works*, given the right conditions - which leads us back to structure...
m1
I agree,
which is why I compared goetia to necronomicon magick ;)
m1thr0s
05-19-2010, 10:27 AM
it's probably just my nature, but I always want to get behind the curtain - open up the hood and take a look at the underpinning *grids* that support these things.
For some that probably *spoils the magick* - for me that's where the magick actually begins...
m1
it's probably just my nature, but I always want to get behind the curtain - open up the hood and take a look at the underpinning *grids* that support these things.
For some that probably *spoils the magick* - for me that's where the magick actually begins...
m1
ditto that :)
Saxarba
06-02-2010, 09:10 AM
Some of you may recall that within the 81 Lo Shu Tones
there are exactly 72 (unique 3-digit combinations) that
have no repeating numbers...
3 divisions x 24 arrangements = 72 unique elemental spellings, or *banners*. Now go through and reduce your Hé's so that each 4-letter word becomes a 3-letter word, since all these words have 2 Hé's each. What remains will be 72 encrypted elemental words...
Its interesting that these 72 unique digit combinations can also be neatly grouped into 3 divisions.
The 1:8, 2:7, and 4:5 three digit patterns yield 18 combinations each + the three 3:6 triads which yield 6 unique combinations.
18+6=24x3=72
One would simply need to adequately correlate each 3:6 triad with one of the other beat families.
fr.novumorganum
12-26-2011, 09:40 AM
What an excellent discussion this is. Of course most of the threads here are....
i finally got down to working with goetic spirits in 2011, so I hope no one minds if I share a few thoughts:
1. i view these intelligence/holograms/mathemes not as 'princes of hell" etc etc but in terms of the subtitle: the howling; they are wild, undirected energy bundles, cut off for most of the operator's existence from the guidance and love of the higher self. the metaphor i decided to use when setting up the ritual was of the goetics as non-domesticated/feral creatures, like a wild horse or dog...
2. some of them are happy to be called to the campfire, others (like the kings etc) are not.
3. in terms of getting things done, in my experience at least, the goetics really do get things done and deliver results....the charge-limitation has to be as clear as possible (but really all of our workings and communications should be); the more directed and defined your charge the better the results.
4. i do not find them very valuable in terms of 'received' information; indeed i currently view goetics not as sources of knowledge but as mechanical energy to do things and do things very well (much better than angels or elementals). i don't even see this as their fault, or as if they are out to trick or deceive people, it just that as non-domesticated energy what seems meaningful to them just doesn't to us. my basic rule of thumb has become: if you need information or something done in the body of light, work UP (m1's mirr0rs, angels, gods, or the higher self); if you need something done in the material, work DOWN (goetics, elementals).
5. i have never read this in any of the books, but it seems as if the 'legions/armies" each controls are really just old fashioned familiars, and that the goetic probably uses these "legions" to fulfill the charge you have given it. here's the kicker, after the operation (and especially after the charge is met) the legions of the goetic tend to hang around, just as if they were your familiar (and i thin in some ways they are now). at first, this as a bit unsettling, but now i really enjoy them whoosing around the place every now and then....to me, the legions look like very fast acid trails or really fast streamers in the air caught out of the corner of your eye.
6. here is what I believe is the most important thing I have learned about them after working with them for about a year now, and again, this isn't really in the books. And this lesson became crystal clear after using M1thr0s's mirrors from the Ptah thread. The part about "as I shall rise you shall rise" in the charge, and telling them "you are a fair and faithful servant" after they have completed their task is KEY to the long term spiritual growth of the operator once you've let the wild fellows into your personal universe. IMHO they really do want to "be redeemed" but this has nothing at all with any x-stain or world religions idea of disavowal and being born again blah blah crap. They want to be part of a harmonious and well balanced body of light; they want to be plugged into the flow of light from above to below; IMHO they feel they are redeemed if they are being controlled and directed by the HGA/higher self, and the higher self, subconsciously loves these wild animals....
7. As i said in the Ptah thread, when i used the ptah mirror they *called* it (really my higher self which I believe that mirror is a representation of) a "true and rightful Sovereign and Regent" and I believe they feel 'redeemed and risen' by it. in practical terms, novumorganum feels that they are now integrated into my spiritual body/BOL, and I feel this has given me a greater degree of control and mastery over certain areas of material existence.
hope this made sense!
m1's mirrors work "down" as well. the TS has a descent action. Some of the mirrors are working with the same kind of realms the Goetia are residing in. Except you get a more wholistic response, and a better grasp.
M1thr0s=m1thr0s
the small m is important.
great post!
fr.novumorganum
12-26-2011, 11:13 AM
ah yes, i should remember to watch that, otherwise glad the post made sense. it feels good to be talking about the occult again.
and yes, i agree with you, the mirrors can certainly be used to get things done in the Real!
m1thr0s
12-26-2011, 11:19 AM
hope this made sense!hell yes it did...:eek:
you know...to be really good at this analytical shit you sometimes have to cut a few corners...hack out the *inessentials* as it were to make room for more demanding aethers. And these *inessentials* aren't always so *inessential* in all situations and circumstances, so I really cannot emphasize enough how valuable it is to me to hear from people enmeshed in other avenues of magickal practice than I usually have the time for...
Fortunately I can still stay in touch with these things via the shamanic route et al, but still...not entirely quite the same...
fascinating read fr.novum...thanks for the low-down!
7. As i said in the Ptah thread, when i used the ptah mirror they *called* it (really my higher self which I believe that mirror is a representation of) a "true and rightful Sovereign and Regent" and I believe they feel 'redeemed and risen' by it. in practical terms, novumorganum feels that they are now integrated into my spiritual body/BOL, and I feel this has given me a greater degree of control and mastery over certain areas of material existence.supremely gratifying...not surprising mind you - not by half, since these are exactly the kinds of things I weigh into the balance of *structural* parameters of all kinds.
But independent confirmation is a priceless thing...
m1
The Saturn Sigil, for instance.....MM too, with his Crystal of Life mirror. They are both, in my opinion, outlining the general feel of what I have experienced in Goetia works.
Except, much much more potent.
Generally I believe the Goetia can be dangerous - even though I think it is wholly psychological - fucking with the mind can be extremely volatile and disrupt the entire body of light (which includes the physical body) So I'm thrilled to hear this:
"1. i view these intelligence/holograms/mathemes not as 'princes of hell" etc etc but in terms of the subtitle: the howling; they are wild, undirected energy bundles, cut off for most of the operator's existence from the guidance and love of the higher self. the metaphor i decided to use when setting up the ritual was of the goetics as non-domesticated/feral creatures, like a wild horse or dog..."
That is a great summary of the Goetia. They demand a lot of attention in the world of the occult, so one must presume these and by proxy, the lower chakras (patala on up) are instrumental in unlocking the potential of the body of light.
And none of us know how to put it all together yet.
fr.novumorganum
01-05-2012, 11:36 AM
A bit more to report
As I've written, I've been working with Orobas and Andromalius. (Yes, I'm following the pattern recommended by Lon Milo Duquette in picking the goetics to start with). Now, as I wrote in the earier post, I believe that Orobas is fully integrated into my bol as a result of him being 'redeemed and risen' by fulfilling his tasks and submitting to the Ptah mirror.
First in that regard, completely out of the blue and not requested or bough by me I revived the 2011 American Racing Manual (picture below)--magick does have a sense of humor.
Second, I assumed that the same had happened with Andromalius. Now, one of the modern tasks that Andromalius is very good with is making mail/postal service work well for you. Well, from the time I made those earlier posts, the post office/mail/communication systems have served me horribly: mail lost, long delays, texts getting bounced back etc. Well, I decided to find out whats what, and point out this poor service to Andromalius. I did this by first using the Ptah mirror, bringing it up on my computer screen, 'trancing out', getting the sense it was activated and then, in this trance state, loading up the seal of Andromalius right next to it. I made my intent clear, and then actively skryed the energy from the Ptah mirror pattern and circulated it around the Andromalius mirror and vice versa.
That was two days ago. Today the following happened:
1. Delayed package (missing since before x-mas) was found and in the mail
2. Another missing package was found at the post office and will be delivered tomorrow (according to them)
3. A publisher who had not sent out payment they owed me from freelance work wrote that they are cutting and mailing my check
4. very effective communication
anyway, this may reveal some things:
1. have we perhaps developed a new, another method of "evocation"?
2. it seems as it spirits have to be integrated individually, and not as a class (at least by me)
http://www.gamblersbookclub.com/includes/preview.php?gen=../images/book_images/book_image_123.jpg&widthVal=355
Andromalius dropped a missing ring in my hand once. This was especially weird since it was left behind during an interstate move. I mean the whole part about rings falling out of the sky is weird too.
I sometimes doubt it was Goetia at all, but something else. However, the request was put to Andromalius.
m1thr0s
01-05-2012, 03:25 PM
first a question: what book(s) by lon duquette are you using? I've only read his Thoth treatise.
the groups vs individuals issue is intriguing from several points of view. I only have limited amount of experience working with large groups of aetheric sentiency at once in any sort of ceremonial application. We were attempting a very serious repair op with a woman whose supernal house seemed to have collapsed in some way releasing untold millions, perhaps billions of these self-identified, yet collective entities. The TwinStar's behavior was startling and instantaneous - very much like one might expect from the Behutet (Winged) Disk in ancient Egypt. It literally scooped them all up and transformed them in some way so that they appeared to turn into little twinstars themselves and it then transported them somewhere unseen - presumably back to where they more correctly belonged (they did not complain or fight against the process, btw)...but the interesting thing is that it addressed them one-at-a-time, each individual in its own unique way and according to its own unique vibration. It did this so fast it would make your head spin to observe it...literally millions dealt with in this way in a matter of minutes...and the problem never returned once repaired. Other problems that had to be dealt with in a different way did persist with this person but over time have all been dealt with very successfully as well.
So I think it CAN deal with groups but still addresses members within each group individually. Now this was a TwinStar working so I can only guess that related variations...what we might think of as family-linked tools/structures/intelligences might be expected to operate in the same way...In any case - an interesting question as to its own intrinsic method of operations...owing to this profound recognition factor we have hit on, there seems to be a kind of two-way dialog that occurs between TS and Sentience. Phrases from older magickal texts we sometimes read such as *they know as they are known* seems to be at play here...from the vantage of the Higher, there may simply be no such thing as a *stranger*...
m1
The thing is, when the Twinstar gets going it has such rapidity of movement it really does have a spheroid form that is indistinguishable from the winged disc Heru-Behutet took.
And I just shot off an email to a Professor about the semantics of "Behutet" since Behutet/Behedety (?) is a town and I think it is wrongheaded to assume this is any kind of proper word for the winged disc.
AfterViewer
01-05-2012, 06:11 PM
There is a process.
fr.novumorganum
01-06-2012, 06:23 AM
I fully agree about the dialogue and recognition, based on these experiments. Two very interesting records, thanks for sharing guys.
m1:
LMD: Aliester Crowley's Illustrated Goetia -The goetia with several chapters written by LMD and Hyatt
LMD: My life with the Sprits--LMD's autobiography, has two very good chapters on Goetia
LMD: Angels, Gods and Demons --This one is a bit meta record of experiments with various Hermetic systems (goetia, HGA etc) and modernized instructions for those systems
(all of these can be found in pdf on the web.........)
LāzhWard
01-06-2012, 11:55 AM
I was thinking the other day about the Goetic spirits, I think I accidentally invoked one in the process of enacting a sigil. I've always had difficulty seeing what exactly the difference is between a Goetic spirit and a non-Goetic one is. I guess its an incidental categorisation, the resulting consequence of the imposition of Christian ethics on the native peoples, they are the unfortunate things which were repressed. I'm glad people in the past found it important enough to keep a symbol of them, I don't know if this have deeper physical implications, maybe it's impossible for the trace of them them to disappear from matter, their psychological repression is symmetrical to their physical relegation to closed, feared, hidden books. From this perspective I'm betting that a great deal of valuable spirits were repressed in the process of the imposition of Christian ethics, but also a lot of ones which enjoy a bit of raping and pillaging every now and again. Looking at the timeline of Christianity's influence it seems to fit that it was the cause of the spirits repression, the story in the Lesser Key of Solomon makes a lot of sense too.
m1thr0s
01-12-2012, 08:52 AM
Looking at the timeline of Christianity's influence it seems to fit that it was the cause of the spirits repression, the story in the Lesser Key of Solomon makes a lot of sense too. Xianity bought in to this whole war against Nature crap hook, line & sinker...it has cost them their natural connection to MOST of Nature's manifest forms and reconciled them to only those which can be harnessed, hooked or eaten...
God what a disgusting way to live your life...a very few have managed to get over it but not very godamm many. It's no wonder so many of them can't seem to wait to die and go to Heaven...only they're in for one rude awakening if Nature is already there!
m1
fr.novumorganum
01-12-2012, 09:21 AM
haha yes indeed
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.0.3 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.