Sigil Love

[Saxarba]

If I wanted to make a sigil to get with a girl, should I design it to get with that specific girl, or should I just amplify my own seductive abilities? Presumably the former would be more focused on her, and arranging appropriate situations, but the later is my force of action, it also seems safer. I would prefer responses from those with field experience or general competence in the area of sigil application.

[m1thr0s]

I have never (deliberately) used sigils in this way myself so I have no brilliant advise to impart - but a question: were you intending to use this sigil to invoke the aid of any particular intelligence or archetype or were you mainly intending to focus on this one specific girl or do you just want to get laid more often or what? So far as *danger* goes - anything has the potential to get ugly or take an unexpected turn. If you just focus on your *own seductive abilities* you could wind up attracting all kinds of horny little critters...racoons are a particular nuisance but there's dogs, bears, stray cats...moose...a horny moose is a serious complication...

If you throw the whole thing to a *higher court* and allow some guiding intelligence to mediate things you may fare better but you'd probably have to give up the idea of being focused on just one targeted individual. If you elect to target this one individual then having something belonging to her is generally considered a most profitable way to proceed, though you will still have to devise some way to *frame* it talismanically...anyway...I'm a techy-type so I'm always interested in the actual engineering strategy...

Sounds like a fun experiment at least...i suspect there's a certain threshhold for danger no matter how you proceed...such is life...and love.

m1

[Saxarba]

were you intending to use this sigil to invoke the aid of any particular intelligence or archetype or were you mainly intending to focus on this one specific girl or do you just want to get laid more often or what?I would like to get with this particular girl. If during the process my appeal to other women should increase, that would be fine with me, but my true target is this one girl. We're in a cat and mouse mode right now. Who is seducing who sort of thing, and I would like to make more energy available for that process. My chosen intelligence is Venus via planetary kamea.

[m1thr0s]

You are probably aware that Venus is the Romanized form of Aphrodite who was, among other things, known for tampering with human emotions in all kinds of sinister ways...I'm not saying not to work with her...just be aware of this propensity of hers to dirty tricks... It has been said that the drug ecstasy can make you fall in love with a rock, or an old tennis-shoe. Venus is capable of that sort of thing - and worse...

m1

[Saxarba]

Thats funny that you mention that. I think it is that precise quality, the glamor and illusion, that I like toying around with. But assuming I want the possibility of a solid relationship with this girl, what intelligence would you suggest?

[m1thr0s]

what intelligence would you suggest?I don't suggest any, as I really feel this would be completely inappropriate of me to do...shop around is the best advise I can give anybody on this one...and be sure to look for *ill-dignified* as well as *dignified* aspects when you do...

m1

[Saxarba]

be sure to look for *ill-dignified* as well as *dignified* aspects when you do...Oh right. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks

[Kath]

Thats funny that you mention that. I think it is that precise quality, the glamor and illusion, that I like toying around with. But assuming I want the possibility of a solid relationship with this girl, what intelligence would you suggest?

If you want a 'solid relationship' (ie 'real love'), and you really genuinely care for this girl, then why do you seek to curb her free will to choose someone other than you?
A mutually and genuinely loving relationship is not built upon one trying to possess the other as an object of their affections.

Charm and glamoury are forms of magick that I am frighteningly good at. But when you become that good at it, it becomes genuinely scary to actually use it. In it's purest and most intense form it brutally tears someone's free will from their mind, leaving them a helpless plaything, and a shadow of their former self. And then you can see it for what it really is. It's not really about "love", or "popularity", it is an intensely selfish & possessive megalomania 'in a sunday hat'.
It's not a nice thing to do to someone.

If you feel the need to exert influence on others, I would urge you to keep it explicitly outside your 'inner circle', your close friends, family, and relationships. And I must warn that even if you do, just the act of exerting your will on another, overriding their own will, will have effects on you psychologically. It de-humanizes people within your own thought schemas, and presses you gently towards the mindset of a sociopath.

Everything you do will always affect others. What you say, what you wear, your body language, your speech inflection, etc. Those things alone can have fairly far reaching influences on the relatively shallow minds of humanity. It's actually unavoidable. You can't *not* influence others. But I just stress a great deal of caution and introspection before you seek to 'overtly' influence others, particularly in ways which they have no understanding of.

They used to call what you're asking for a "love curse". Somewhere along the way the term got white-washed, and now we call it a 'love spell'. But it still is what it is.

Ironically, if you had told me she was your enemy, and given an explanation of why she is unlikeable, I'd have been more inclined to just share all I know on the topic. My mentor says I am a bit too up tight about inter-mind-influence, but I am err'ing on the side of the lesser evil.

Have you considered just being straightforward, sincere, and open with her? It's strange I know, but it's the sort of thing that would impress me :)

PS- if she already likes you, and she's just dragging things out... then what she is looking for is either/both flattery, and the thrill of the chase. Give her her chase, and sing her her praises. And I mean, seriously, not a lot of women can resist someone courting them dually as both a seductive predator and as their most vocal admirer. If you are genuinely interested in her thoughts & feelings as well, a good listener, then you'll be in like flynn.

PPS- Lead her to believe that you are a god in the sack. the psychological effect of this belief is somewhat self fulfilling. Of course that only works if you really do kinda know your way around the sack. Suspension of disbelief & all that, don't want to burst the illusion.

[Kath]

PPPS- the reason why girls sometimes find guys 'creepy' is when they have all sorts of affection and 'need' built up without really knowing them. in that situation the boy is really actually in love with their own fantasy which is loosely modeled on a particular girl, and us girls can feel that. That is very objectifying, and well, 'creepy'. Plus girls don't really want to feel 'needed' they want to feel 'wanted'. So if you're obsessed, you're really swimming against the current. Just avoid that by not 'falling in love' with people you don't really know all that well ;) and making it clear that if they don't accept your affections, you won't be emotionally scarred or anything (removes the sense of 'pressure'). What you have before a relationship is not 'love' for someone, it's 'attraction' to someone. You don't get to actual 'love' until you've been together for a prolonged period of time (you may never get to that with some people).

PPPPS- This is meant to be enjoyed. If you 'have fun' courting someone, they will have fun being courted by you.

[izi]

Maybe these tactics work on ordinary women, but for this or that devi? You will need to learn how to pursuade devi on a whole other level. Everyone is different and the rest, "just fish".

[Saxarba]

(not to sound pompous but) I know all those things Kath, thank you for your input. In using magick in this situation I am not looking to influence her will, but simply amplify my own. If I thought I couldn't get her without magick then I wouldn't even consider using it. Conversely, I don't think she will lose interest anytime soon, so I'm in no rush and have not even committed anything to this route.

My purpose in using magick in any situation it is to assist the raising of myself and the people that I care about to higher levels of Pleasure.


it is an intensely selfish & possessive megalomania 'in a sunday hat'.
It's not a nice thing to do to someone.You see, I have a completely different view on it. It appears to me that people love to be drawn out of themselves. There are all sorts of ways of doing that, but what it comes down to is understanding the psychology of another person, which is, far from being selfish, a very generous act, since you are not only 'stepping outside of yourself' but are pulling others out of their own hypnotic self-absorption.

[m1thr0s]

do you know this trick?

http://abrahadabra.com/images/attached/koj01.png


it's one of my favorites little talismanic ditties since it is both powerful and versatile. It works with any magickal square. It's just a curiosity of geometry that the triangles contain the exact number of internal triangles as the square does internal squares - in this case 16. So you can do all kinds of things with it and also construct 3D talismanic pyramids to be used in many different ways. These can contain something of your target as you like...a lock of hair or whatever...they can be damped in precious oils and carry spells or just all kinds of things... To make one for Venus just use the Kamea of Venus and extend its edges out the same way as this one is done...so 49 squares flanked by triangles with 49 triangles each...as with all talismans, it's really just a focusing devise but this one has all kinds of creative options.

bon apetit...

m1

[Saxarba]

You've shown this off else where on these forums before. If I do go this route I'll likely use it

[izi]

I think Venus is a great idea. I did a few invocations and work with her over the years, and she is powerful, beautiful and generous. (never trust a demonologist to tell you the whole truth on any number of handy tools lol :bowdown:)

Anyways, you should listen to m1thr0s, he really knows what he is talking about...lol :perv:

[m1thr0s]

:o oops...I'd forgotten...but it's still worth resurrecting for a worthy cause...:)

If you decide to hang with Venus...don't forget her adornments...she likes dolphins for instance, else dolphins are generally associated to her...so showing her some proper respect will likely help with mediating her sinister side...getting her on your side instead. The more I think about Venus/Aphrodite, the more sense it seems to make - to me at least...

m1

[Kath]

Maybe these tactics work on ordinary women, but for this or that devi? You will need to learn how to pursuade devi on a whole other level. Everyone is different and the rest, "just fish".
I was basically describing what generally works on fish, not what I use, as I'm not a big seafood person.

below is something closer to what I 'use'. albeit very rarely anymore.
and for that devi? I'd go much much further than anything I clumsily outline below.


(not to sound pompous but) I know all those things Kath, thank you for your input. In using magick in this situation I am not looking to influence her will, but simply amplify my own. If I thought I couldn't get her without magick then I wouldn't even consider using it. Conversely, I don't think she will lose interest anytime soon, so I'm in no rush and have not even committed anything to this route.

My purpose in using magick in any situation it is to assist the raising of myself and the people that I care about to higher levels of Pleasure.

You see, I have a completely different view on it. It appears to me that people love to be drawn out of themselves. There are all sorts of ways of doing that, but what it comes down to is understanding the psychology of another person, which is, far from being selfish, a very generous act, since you are not only 'stepping outside of yourself' but are pulling others out of their own hypnotic self-absorption.
it's not pompous at all. I was presumptuous, and wrong.
I apologize for underestimating your intent. I was really speaking to an entirely different sort of intent than what you just described.
I feel kinda stupid. I am sorry saxarba.
In penance, I will be as thorough as I can, given that I have not slept in about 40 hours and it's catching up with me.
even the bits which are blatantly easy to abuse, as they are intrinsic to really knowing what you're doing with this sort of thing.

people very much do love to be drawn out of themselves. most people are desperately lonely, on a deep down level that mere companionship doesn't really fix. they want to be understood, deeply, totally understood. to be truly known. language by itself can't accomplish that, nor can sex.

I used to form connections with people because I mooched their energy. for a long time i was not consciously aware of it, but it was there nonetheless. And when people had emotional 'baggage' they would instinctively seek me out to unload. you get to be an expert listener. and you get to understand a lot about psychology which you can't pick up in textbooks. You also get pretty good at forming connections and drawing people out. And when you mooch energy, you can't help but have empathy as well. and you learn from that too. You also can eventually get to understand and have a feel for the principals behind mesmerism. it's not directly related, but let's just say that having already formed a connection, you're in a strong position to practice it. but that's not really what you're talking about here. though it's close in some ways.

There is something I came up with which I call a 'universal adapter'. Basically, you take 'self' and you take a large portion of that, and separate it from your 'core self', with a sort of membrane. It's all still attached, but the membrane is a complete block on energy resonances passing from one side to the other, in either direction. Make your mind 'impassively aware' on both sides of the membrane, so that you perceive what's going on outside the core portion of self, but as a sort of silent observer. It is difficult to stress how much I am not talking about just picturing all of this, but really internally manipulating your energy body and mind in this way.

Then take the slightly more external portion of self. and 'empty it out'. By that I mean that you take that part of yourself, and make it pure void, without any resonance of it's own. just limp and totally unassertive. make it a perfect receiver, a perfect listener, a perfect mirror of anything near it. When you meet the other person, let that empty part of yourself be totally and completely swayed by the empathic energies they emit. It would be helpful if there was an energy flow in your direction from the other person, nothing severe, but just to act as an empathy booster. let this quiet and still part of yourself become almost like their 'mini-me'. let it synchronize with them through the process of 'entrainment' (like when you hold 2 tuning forks together).

There can be no judgement or preconception or expectation or reproach or surprise or anything like that. you are the silent observer, you don't react, you just listen 'fully' to every part of them. everything is just utterly accepted, and you will feel their sense of relief in that. and they will rapidly share deeper and deeper, because they can, because you 'get them', and you don't judge or think any sort of analysis of it, just listen and understand to your utmost (but without 'trying' or 'straining' to understand).

and what you are sharing with them it is important to understand, is a very real part of yourself. it is not some disingenous ploy. it is making room for yourself to listen and absorb what they have to offer in a way which you actually have to shield your innermost being from, lest you lose your own sense of self to them.

not always, but often enough there will be times when you perceive their thoughts before they speak them out loud while doing this. Usually it's a nonverbal perception, concepts rather than explicit wording. thoughts are just (for our purposes here) very rapid and complex emotive movements in their mind. If regular empathy is like a constant dull droning which expresses how they basically feel. then thoughts are like a rapid shift of subtle sensations which is very similar and in a sequence which spells out 'ideas'. It's not easy to perceive this stuff, but it's entirely possible to. If you do, don't be afraid to say "I know" before they spit out their comment. Don't 'bluff' it, only do this if you really do know. as deeply connected as you are they will sense if you're bluffing. and if you're not, they will know you're not, and they will wonder a bit at how you could know. it only reinforces their confidence that they can share anything with you, everything with you.

The process is facilitated by conversation. really the conversation is more a vehicle though. but it should follow the main thrust of what we're doing here. if you're rambling about yourself then you're doin it all wrong. also eye contact, close proximity, touching, all useful as well. I find psychology to be very useful also, more for acting as an ice breaker, to give you enough insight to make comments which get the ball rolling on them wondering at how well you might really understand them. For example, if someone says "oh yeah i've had insomnia ever since i was like 8 years old!", then I assure you, something happened to them when they were 8 years old, and it's worth asking them in a friendly, inviting, and understanding manner which just kinda pulls the answer forth.

Ideally though, do seek a topic out until you hit rock bottom, but don't just sit on one topic alone. keep the ball rolling, get on to other facets of themselves. Turn it into an absolute shedding of their outer pretext, let them bare their whole soul. They want to anyway. Even if they say and consciously think that they don't like to share, they want to all that much more.

They may even weep over it all, depending on how pent up they feel. They may actually become absolutely convinced that you are their soul mate, if they do this, then it's really time to back off and let them regain their sense of self. Technically you are basically mating with their soul, but you *could* do it with anyone just as easily, and it's somewhat unethical to let them feel like "you are THE one for them". They may even develop a religious fixation on you. or propose to you on the spot. I'd recommend not letting that sort of thing persist. These are unlikey results unless you're very good at this. So don't worry too much about it.

If they already love you anyway, then yes, you can give them some very beautiful feelings and experiences, without really messing up their free will.

I must stress that there is no chicanery or insincerity involved here. it's genuine, not a trick for the other person to pull the wool over their eyes.

It would be helpful to have a working knowledge of all major forms of hypnosis, the principles of mesmerism, animal magnetism, etc. psychology (the more the better), NLP (just to make it all really polished and perfect), and above all else, interpersonal energy work, especially empathy and forming energetic connections with others. It is helpful if there is a flow of energy from them to you, as they are shedding emotional content, that would be the natural flow for things. If there is not, if you don't allow that, then you may be blocking the process to a degree. As long as you at no point bring 'assertion' into this, it will not significantly drain them, only provide an eager avenue for them to shed energy to you. The result will be a very pleasant tiredness, counterbalanced against the adrenaline rush of elation from the experience. Do not 'pull' hard on their energy, just very very gently, if at all. It wouldn't mess it up if you pulled harder, but then we'd be talking about a vampiric act instead of a friendly one. I mean they wouldn't know the difference, but its someone you care about, right?

with practice you can get better at this. there's a lot of nuance and subtlety that I'm not quite capturing here. its an art form not a recipe.
please don't experiment with it in a less altruistic fashion. I'm sure you can see the overt potential for abuse of power here.

you can, once you get good with this, learn to sort of 'push' the process, kinda. so that you're not entirely dependent on their willing cooperation. I'd consider that an abuse, if it conflicted with their own intent and desires. but if not, then you could use that to kinda 'amp up' the experience somewhat. sort of like sex, you can make love very gently, but also, if the other is agreeable to it, you can make love 'less gently' too. To do this, you work carefully you Will through that otherwise impassive 'silent observer' part of your mind which you're using to keep tabs on the 'swayed' part of yourself. with such a degree of entrainment going on, it is not hard to see how you could bring Will into the equation. Also, if you were to pull more 'significantly' on her energy in this process, you could use a technique I call 'cycling' where you pull energy out, but at the other end of their natural energy flows, you pipe energy back in. The trick being that the energy you pipe back in is of a resonance which suits your intent.


Speaking of which, you can also take on other roles, besides just the listener to their soul. You can become the temptress to their deepest darkest desires (or 'temptor' in your case). explore their realm of fantasy, both abstract and erotic forms. you can play with them in the playgrounds in their mind which they always thought to be solitary. You can share the very most disgusting parts of them, and let them know that you don't just accept it, but revel in them for it. Careful with that one, even the less easily swayed can fall in love hard on that note. You can also do some pretty exotic things with hypnotism if you have a really trusting relationship. For example I once hypnotized a girl (at her urging) and convinced her that her fingers were all sexually erogenous. That was one hell of an interesting night, involving.... a lot, and chocolate syrup too. needless to say, i left an impression. actually erotic technique, as related to all of this, can be a vast vast vast science unto itself. But erotic method is really kinda a loose side topic here I guess. You can learn to do something very much like hypnosis, by way of energy manipulation, without using all the outward trappings of classical hypnosis. Actually I think it's easier to do it nonphysically. On the darker side you could learn to confuse or terrify, with energy, but conversely you could cause elation or ecstasy ...It's not possible to learn just one and not the other.

For that matter, if you channel enough energy through you, and expel it all rapidly, like a fountain. you'll seem very... 'bright'. If you do that on a huge enough scale, and also mix this with a certain demeanor or temperance of nature, you can pull of a sort of glamoury or charm which is similar to 'deific glamour'. Deities don't do it on purpose though, it's just how they come across if they're not willfully protecting you from being swept off your feet by their auric influence.

In summary, you can let the person know they are not alone, at every level of their being, and that not only do you know them that deeply, but you accept and understand and like them... all of them. (if you really do that is). Personally I always find something lacking, something which holds me back. namely a lack of 'reciprocation'. at least with humans. but i digress.

If you want to knock her socks off, be her twin, her companion, her mother, her daughter, her savior, her devil, her court jester, her god, her servant, her love, the air in her lungs, and her the air in yours. It is possible to get entwined so deep that you taste the food she eats when she is miles away. fall asleep and awake in synchronized timing even in separate houses. and just know when you really need to get to her, be with her.
but that's probably putting the cart way ahead of the horse at this stage of your relationship.

it wouldn't hurt to study some on where/how to touch someone, to facilitate this sort of energetic connection and spiritual bonding, but I don't know where you'd find a school for that. experiment, and listen carefully to your intuition on the matter when you are already deeply engaged in a connection with her. I think that will be more fruitful than a case by case outline of good touching spots. There's a sort of dance to it all, an adaptive give and take, a rhythm, like snake charming, or dance, or freeform music, or art. I hate to put too much detail into specific methodology as that can lead away from the real spirit of the working.

edit: invoking venus is also a good tact, I'm always down with invoking high caliber expertise. its the very best way to learn how to do things yourself.

[Saxarba]

Wow Kath! Thanks



Okay...please help me interpret these events. I saw my romantic interest this evening, literally minutes after constructing the device. We had no stimulating engagement. What follows is my raw perception: I order my food, and walk over to the opening stage room. I'm watching the house band, talking to someone, when it just dawns upon me that she is sitting about 10 ft away from me. I didn't intend to go out for fun, I was just hungry. She is sitting with 3 guys. She has lots of male friends in fact. I didn't know any of them, consequently a barrier existed between their group and myself, although she did turn to wave at me.

The nature of the situation was one in which she was highly inaccessible, more so than usual. On the other hand, I was given a synth, asked to collaborate by another person, then later jammed out with some other people. There were at least a half a dozen other musically related events.

[Kath]

oy, lots of ways to interpret that. some benign, some less benign.

I may not be the one to ask.
My first romantic relationship in life was with a girl. she had 'lots' of male friends. when around them in mixed company there was always this very awkward feeling to it all. It's hard to pin down but it was exceptionally awkward. It turns out she was bedding pretty much 'all' of them (which really was a huge number of people). I had thought it was something special we had, i mean we never went all the way but we made out, and it was very sweet. I guess she was just a total nympho, and i was her 'bi-curious experiment'. The relationship only lasted a month. She decided that she really liked me, in something more than just a sexual way, and so she broke up with me, presumably to isolate me from her lifestyle which she had very low self esteem about. Part of me was shocked, but somewhere in the back of my brain i already kinda knew everything, and that part of my brain had kept me from emotionally investing myself in her too deeply. I moved on in a matter of days, but I did retain from the experience that making out with girls was something I enjoyed. It's quite possible that i was just 'moving too slow' for her. But I was also the only person genuinely treating her well. Honestly I was kinda 'built up' to something, and still kinda wanted to explore 3rd base and beyond with her, hehe, but it seems to be a thorny situation and I decided to leave well enough alone.

Obviously though, my experience above isn't all that common. If she hadn't lived a half hour from my hometown, I would have already known that she was the town sex fiend in her locale.

so, yeah. in all probability the above is totally unrelated to your situation! I'm only describing why my grossly under-informed opinion on your situation might be tainted.

Personally, in your shoes, I'd pry into her head and figure out what's what. It's kinda like the really nice stuff i explained above, but crossed with a police search. It's "invasive", it's disrespectful of privacy, it's kinda like using cheat codes in a game. But if I were really emotionally invested and felt a real need to know? why have power if not to actually wield it when you need to? I wouldn't bully her free will, or be possessive. But after having been fairl laissez-faire in my approach to relationships for a long time, I have noticed that I get burned a lot by dishonesty. And I've decided that I have a right to know exactly where I stand with someone whether they are forthcoming or not.
But i'm a little bit old and jaded, and naivety is the lifeblood of innocence.

Realistically, you could just ask her if she's seeing anybody. Which you could just take at face value, or...
Whatever she says, you'll get the accurate answer from her eyes during the period about 1-4 seconds after you ask. You don't really need police training or anything, just watch her eyes carefully and listen to your gut, it's fairly instinctive. don't say "look me in the eye" or anything though, it kinda tips people off that they're being monitored and makes them much more guarded.

I may seem less than trusting. I just know humanity pretty well, and I'm just not a huge fan.
__

addendum to my previous post:

i thought of a way to maybe better describe what I outlined in my last post. at least to people who have different approaches to magick. Basically you'd be doing "a controlled invocation (or perhaps 'transvocation') of another living person". And doing so both by reaching out to them, and pulling them to you. There is a feel to it where you sort of blur the lines of both individuality and personal ownership of energy. I tend to think it would be easiest to learn if someone is used to forming energetic connections with people. Much of my 'inter-personal-magic' is distantly derivative of psychic vampirism, and/or 'demon' interaction. Without having a background, and years of practice and an evolution of a personal magical approach similar to my own though? I'm really not sure how easy it would be to apply.

Unfortunately, my method results in a pretty one-sided experience ...I am actually a bit envious of the other when I do it. It is actually one of my greatest desires in life (well my greatest 'concrete' desire, here, in the mud) to have a relationship where what I described above is more of a 2-way mutual process. I mean that would make me "really fucking happy" (probably second only to sorting out my magnum opus). but thus far, no such luck.

But whether you transvoke the girl, or invoke venus to interact with the girl, I think you'll have good results either way.
I'm only more of a 'do it yourself-er' because I've spent a lot of time learning from other beings, and I like to personally be the 'hands on' proactive agent of change in my magic, if I am able. Or put another way, I have a preference for "Direct Magick", unless I really need another being's expertise.

PS- I realize that many here are more ritual oriented in their magical style. I'm not adverse to that approach as well. But I think sometimes people who strongly favor ceremony can get the feeling that direct magick or energy work styles are just all 'touchy feely mumbo jumbo'. I think this is sometimes the case. It really depends on whether the person is just being a touchy feely wishful thinker imagining results (all too common), or they are actually using that paradigmatic framework (or working model) to genuinely effect change in accordance with Will.