Natural state of mind

[katiafish]

I have come across this instruction in one of Alan Watts lectures:

'Don't think about the past,
Don't imagine anything about the future,
Don’t analyze anything in the present,
Don't contemplate,
Don't concentrate,
Don't meditate.

Leave your mind in its natural state.'

To me this is loaded with significance as i have been contemplating the state of non-duality lately as part of my whole Unity construct. At the same time the whole concept of a natural state of mind seems to be very obscure as I think in our current state of intellectual conditioning it is very hard to actually phantom what it may mean. Is it a so called state of no-mind? Child-like? Someone i have spoken to has suggested that in natural state of mind we would reverse to almost a caveman like mentality, which i think is incorrect and very basic.
Anyway, what do you guys think is a Natural state of mind?

[Malakim]

First I have some problem with a lot of "Don'ts", "Do not" is for the mind just like a "Do". (See NLP, ...)

But I think this might refer to the fact that we (our Mind) is not really experiencing the present moment as it is.
The Mind jumps back and forth between the past and the prediction of the future and in doing this it interpretes the present moment
without actually letting it unfiltered through. One interpretation of "Enlightenment" is that the Enlightened Individual actually stops his mind from doing the time jump (which supposedly is the cause of time) and thus is able to see the world as it is (this is refered to more or less clearly as the vaile of Isis, stopping the world, Mimirs Well, Akasha, ...). "Stopping the world" is probably most directly refering to this, "Journey to Ixtlan" and other books by Castaneda is revolving around this.

I think this guy here says it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F_nOs01peA

[m1thr0s]

I think Alan Watts is just playing another worthless word game to be honest. humans think about the past. humans imagine the future. humans analyze things, contemplate, concentrate & meditate...these are *natural* conditions of mind for human beings. He is being disingenuous with his rhetoric, attempting to correlate *non-thought* and *naturalness* as the same thing when in fact these are different terms implying different things. Alan Watts was an intellectual cheat in more ways than one in my view. One does not simply *assume* a state of non-duality and have it last very long. That's a popular lie but a lie just the same. The underpinning argument is that struggle is somehow a bad thing whereas in truth struggle is the *norm* for human beings and is their most *natural* state of being relative to this world. That same struggle can lead us to non-duality in a more lasting way than simply playing some game of *letting go* or whatever...this is just another bill of goods packaged and sold to people who don't know their own minds to begin with.

m1

[Darkwater]

The OP is rather a nice description of *the current* where you have to (just) *be* for better perspective & clarity on the reason for your birth & ending the passage of lies.

Then Maya eases its way back into your life,as it does.Except you are now ascended from as opposed to descended from.:)

Non duality ramnifies up from duality to plurality...

[katiafish]

I see where you are coming from m1, but dont you think that "letting go" is actually one of the biggest struggles that humans can endure? I find that as soon as i decide to "let go" it becomes apparent just how much stuff there is to let go, even the desire to let go lol.. State of non-duality is achievable as a constant, what i think many people get wrong is that they think that it is somehow separate from the state of doing, like going on about your life. I recon it is all in layers of awareness..

I dont mind Alan Watts although i have to admit that i listen to him as an entertainment , kinda relaxing my brain in between the chapters of Essence of Bhagavat Gita I have been listening for a while..

[m1thr0s]

In his defense Watts often played to audiences who had no exposure to principles of non-duality of any kind and I think he oversimplified many things in order to make certain points stick...we have to be careful not to take these oversimplifications too seriously - or too literally. In most cases they are just rhetorical ploys...


I see where you are coming from m1, but dont you think that "letting go" is actually one of the biggest struggles that humans can endure?that's actually my point...*just letting go* is no simple feat...it takes a lot of hard work and repetition to master...no one actually achieves this just by imagining it to be so.

m1

[katiafish]

The OP is rather a nice description of *the current* where you have to (just) *be* for better perspective & clarity on the reason for your birth & ending the passage of lies.

Then Maya eases its way back into your life,as it does.Except you are now ascended from as opposed to descended from.:)

Non duality ramnifies up from duality to plurality...

I think metacognition is paramount in this case, as we develop our ability to observe the observer.

[katiafish]

that's actually my point...*just letting go* is no simple feat...it takes a lot of hard work and repetition to master...no one actually achieves this just by imagining it to be so.


Would then the state that we reach once all of the letting go is complete be the natural state of mind? Or would it simply not matter by then?

[m1thr0s]

Would then the state that we reach once all of the letting go is complete be the natural state of mind? Or would it simply not matter by then? the question is not so simple as that... letting go of what? I have said many times I believe in the principle of *trading up* - I don't think we ever really let things go per se but we can (usually) rise above those things that restrict us. We don't really accomplish this through negation or dismissal of any kind...we accomplish it by latching on to higher self itself...
So if we stick to the either-or question as you have phrased it I would have to say it would not matter by then...but in truth the process is more complex than this. What is *letting go* if it is not a process of becoming? And if it is a process of becoming why should any particle of who we are require to be *let go*? Transmutation is not the same thing as Negation - it's more about converting Lesser into Higher...so nothing ever really needs to be dispersed that can more profitably be transmuted.

I believe that the principle of attachment has been perverted...attachment in itself is not the problem...attachment to corruptible things is. desire is not the enemy, but desiring things unworthy of our desire can be and often is. So please - tell me quite clearly - what part of self is it that actually needs to be *let go* - because I cannot myself define it.

m1

[Saxarba]

Someone i have spoken to has suggested that in natural state of mind we would reverse to almost a caveman like mentality...That sounds more like Kenneth Grant than anything else

I agree that no-mind is not the same as what is referred to as natural-mind. Any true "non-dual" school doesn't emphasis no-thought over thought. If anything Watts if just getting you into a calm state

[katiafish]

the question is not so simple as that... letting go of what? I have said many times I believe in the principle of *trading up* - I don't think we ever really let things go per se but we can (usually) rise above those things that restrict us. We don't really accomplish this through negation or dismissal of any kind...we accomplish it by latching on to higher self itself...
So if we stick to the either-or question as you have phrased it I would have to say it would not matter by then...but in truth the process is more complex than this. What is *letting go* if it is not a process of becoming? And if it is a process of becoming why should any particle of who we are require to be *let go*? Transmutation is not the same thing as Negation - it's more about converting Lesser into Higher...so nothing ever really needs to be dispersed that can more profitably be transmuted.

I believe that the principle of attachment has been perverted...attachment in itself is not the problem...attachment to corruptible things is. desire is not the enemy, but desiring things unworthy of our desire can be and often is. So please - tell me quite clearly - what part of self is it that actually needs to be *let go* - because I cannot myself define it.

m1



Well you see, that is part of my issue, i just dont see the separation between the self and all the definitions or persona construct. Like you said, it is not attachment or desire or ego by themselves that are the problem, it is the overidentification with ether one and persistant idea that any one of those by itself can substitute for a full idea of the Self. Way i understand it is by letting go we actually work on the levels of necessity by observing and becoming aware of each of those levels and identify their purpose and necessity in the I am construct as a whole.

[izi]

To get no-mind you should really read the Bujinkan crowd especially ones from the grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi. The only lineage I ever trusted or followed was the Bujinkan. I love Hatsumi and all of his books are so valuable. The ninja themselves let go without actually being pacifists or becoming mindless monks.

[m1thr0s]

Well you see, that is part of my issue, i just dont see the separation between the self and all the definitions or persona construct. Like you said, it is not attachment or desire or ego by themselves that are the problem, it is the overidentification with ether one and persistant idea that any one of those by itself can substitute for a full idea of the Self. Way i understand it is by letting go we actually work on the levels of necessity by observing and becoming aware of each of those levels and identify their purpose and necessity in the I am construct as a whole.if you trade in bad habits for better ones, the *letting go* is a seamless process that requires no special focus...and in the meantime I have become distrustful of the way the language is popularly deployed, which I find deceptive and inconclusive...a devise most often used by various *false prophets* to convey a methodology of *no methodology* which may be attractive to many people but is in fact attainable by none. So to some extent I take issue with the rhetoric itself on this.

It is useful, I think, to try to reduce these grand terminologies to specific instances to see if they actually hold water at the practical level. Many do not.

m1

[katiafish]

Heh i am not prophesying just trying to understand.. Using labels that are available to me for conveying my thought, perhaps in very jumbled kind of way. Oh well..

[m1thr0s]

i don't know either...and that makes me especially suspicious. insofar as subconscious mind is concerned we do know that positive suggestion is much more effective that negative in changing behavior patterns at the subconscious level...so I am generally inclined to think that the language of *letting go* is a logical fallacy...that it is a by-product of taking up alternative focal constructs and is not something we can actually do without them...a fool's errand in such a case.

m1

[katiafish]

But doesnt that just bring us back to the point that perhaps these concepts can not be "understood" in a logical or intellectual way, and hence no contemplation should happen in the first place? State of Being not thinking or doing or talking.. But then, I believe that one can be in the state of Being whist talking and thinking and doing, because it does not require a conscious assessment, it is more to do with intuition and feeling..

Meh, may be i should give up

[Darkwater]

Just different perspectives.one from the noumenon(seeing things as they are)...say for a glance at the existensial universe we are all alligned with to varying degree's of awareness.

Nature,natural mind does allign perfectly with the Universe,also nature.

As opposed to observing these as they appear,trying to describe the phenomenon which sounds whacky.

To the dust upon the wind,
I say BE STILL!
To the Universe I say,
KEEP MOVING!

Har har har har har...still only have transient imperfection difficult,if not impossible,to describe in monkey mind jibber jabber labels.

Just pushing back the boundaries of that considered *ineffible*

where the universe has no circumference & it's centre is infinite.

Gnosis Neuton.

the essence of form without form,me Shiva,the unchanging essence of all forms......all is the self & the self alone.....ultimate reality,pure indivisable self.

Freedom to obey self & embrace fate or destiny as one pure eternal self reality ....

How can you say know thyself?how can you say you do not know thyself?

Brahman the absolute beyond all qualities within & without in a universe shining as one...until the jar is destroyed so as the space within can be one with the outter space.....

Universal man from the Bhagavid Ghita,my main man!

[m1thr0s]

But doesnt that just bring us back to the point that perhaps these concepts can not be "understood" in a logical or intellectual way, and hence no contemplation should happen in the first place? State of Being not thinking or doing or talking.. But then, I believe that one can be in the state of Being whist talking and thinking and doing, because it does not require a conscious assessment, it is more to do with intuition and feeling..I'm not certain what your objective is anymore, katia...if you have no objective then sure, just go ahead and *be* I guess. For myself, it never takes very long for these detachment bubbles to burst. Reality has a way of pressing the issues we ultimately wind up struggling with no matter what. But hey, experiment with it and see what you get! :)

I guess one of the things we need to sort out is whether *non-duality* itself is an objective, or a prerequisite to achieving some other objective or what? Is it just a state of mind or is it also a state of matter? I grew up with Watts and the whole *be here now* movement in the SF Bay Area and across the world in general. I never really saw it achieve very much of anything but perpetual ambiguity.

note: I ultimately arrived at the conclusion that the stated goal of the hermetic alchemists and qabbalists was a correct one for the human condition - that there is in fact a transhumanistic directive embedded right into the very fabric of existence as we know it that requires a great deal of *right knowledge* and *right action* to achieve. So that makes me a *Completionist*, philosophically, because I do not actually believe human beings have it within their natural means to be wholly Free...we have to become something more than we are to ever realize anything like this. We have to struggle in order to prevail and this *struggle* is a right and natural state of things...

m1

[Darkwater]

I think metacognition is paramount in this case, as we develop our ability to observe the observer.

Ooooh,always love new vocabulary.;) In terms of the Great Celestial River Eridanus,the SUPERVOID which mirrors the crazy path of the sun chariot(as we,as earthlings,follow the sun *get's dizzy*) you enter at the belly of the Whale,spend a few days there until you fight your way out or pass naturally(ahem)then you move into the furnace,then you deal with Pheonix(swan/cygnus) - all the time we are being better perfected,the better you can do out there the better it can go down here as we are a form of holistic projection from SUPERVOID,something science & technology can illustrate although not quite explain.:) ....Just one level of the *seemingly* vast plurarity which ascends back to the 1(again)

[Saxarba]

But doesnt that just bring us back to the point that perhaps these concepts can not be "understood" in a logical or intellectual way, and hence no contemplation should happen in the first place? State of Being not thinking or doing or talking.. But then, I believe that one can be in the state of Being whist talking and thinking and doing, because it does not require a conscious assessment, it is more to do with intuition and feeling..

Meh, may be i should give upI think that this language is useful for getting into a certain "asana"...but the contradiction occurs when you reflect on the obvious fact that that line of thought is a form of contemplation.

It can be useful to differentiate between language and states. The term "contemplation" can refer to "being in the state of nondual-contemplation", a state where attachment to concepts of self and other is cut through. The compulsion or need to conceptually define consciousness is cut through. The presence or absence of the concepts themselves is peripheral. The utility lies in knowing that you don't have to do anything you don't want to

If consciousness exists before thought and things then consciousness exists regardless of the presence or absence of thought and things. If consciousness is the ground of thought and things, then consciousness is also "the conceptual mode of defining self and other" since distinguishing the difference between "consciousness" and "the conceptual mode of defining self and other", is itself another conceptual mode of defining self and other.

...the conceptual mode of defining self and other, isn't necessarily the ultimate definition of consciousness, and therefore their isn't necessarily an ultimate difference between consciousness and thought & things...since that difference is asserted by thought & things and not by consciousness.

On the other hand, if thought & things assert self and other, and if their is no ultimate difference between consciousness and thought & things, yet one is asserting self and other and the other does not, then how can their be any ultimate assertion of the existence or non-existence of subject and object?

I know this is convoluted, but thats sort of the point. Intellectual thought isn't necessarily antithetical to "non-dual contemplation"...can in fact be its primary vehicle. A very rich tradition of Indian and Tibetan philosophy does just that.

[m1thr0s]

I'm pretty sure our brains get in the way of our own self-awareness, but it is our lot to have these brains so we have to make the best of it. Plants have no brains yet appear to be self-aware - yet they do not appear to have very many *choices*. Not too many humans would probably want to be plants while at least some humans would rather not be humans at all...but humans have a lot more choices with respect to Being than other forms of life would seem to have. Nature seems to have evolved a higher order of beings for some reason we do not fully understand but all forms of life in this world are fundamentally transitional...including human beings.

Ultimately progress as we know it consists of individuals assessing their situations and taking some risk or another in terms of action...self-inspection is thus a key to species evolution, so it is difficult to conclude that grappling with difficult questions in life is in itself a hindrance to personal liberation. Struggle leads to solutions.

m1

[AfterViewer]

Wu shin (no mind) is practiced in the traditional Chinese martial arts to enter and maintain during combat where one's mind takes over (auto-pilot) in order to not be distracted by the processing of thoughts which can inhibit reaction time. Emotion, ego, doubt, and other thought signals are in a diminished state. The Samurai of Japan used to go through a meditative process before going into battle that amounted to the same mental state. Also translated (Chinese) as "unintentional" this state of no mind serves it's master well in time of need but is not the "natural thinking state" of an interactive psyche. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin

[m1thr0s]

that's a very interesting point AV and brings up another dimension to this topic - that the *no-mind* state is actually linked to the *mind* state such that we really can't define the one without the other. The *no-mind* state doesn't exist off all by itself - or if it does, that aspect of it is pretty much useless to us. It's a symbiotic sort of deal - once again!!!

m1

[katiafish]

Ok, so would we then conclude that the state of *no-mind* that is described above is indeed the *natural state of mind*?

[katiafish]

I'm not certain what your objective is anymore, katia...if you have no objective then sure, just go ahead and *be* I guess. For myself, it never takes very long for these detachment bubbles to burst. Reality has a way of pressing the issues we ultimately wind up struggling with no matter what. But hey, experiment with it and see what you get! :)

My objective all along was to work out what the "natural" state of mind actually means.. More i think about it, more it seems to me that we are very far removed from anything "natural" as the current situation in the world stands.. So for example, do external factors apply, or is it entirely internal? Is it a thing of balance?

Way i see it the whole state on "no-mind" is possible when we are firmly grounded in the material plane, otherwise we gonna end up like so many new age hippies, a floating mind rather than a natural one.. That was what i mean when i was talking about separation, it seems to me that the separation is necessary in sense of taking things apart to put them back together better and more efficiently, however, many people get stuck on just one level, only thinking about their body, or their spiritual or their mind or any other one of their self identification levels.
Hope i am making sense now...

[m1thr0s]

I think our real sticking point in this discussion surrounds the word *natural* itself and what is meant by that. Between its noun and adjective forms, the word natural constitutes one of the longest entries in the Oxford English Dictionary with a very broad range of common uses. For most people in most kinds of applications, the ability to tap a *no-mind* state generally has to be learned and mastered over time, so in that sense it would seem inaccurate to say it was natural - if by natural we mean to say that most people can do this with very little effort. The tantrics use the word *asana* (posture, position) to describe the application of *no-mind* where the *asana* of *no-mind* is achieved over time with a great deal of time and effort spent mastering the physical to the point where certain things can then be placed on a kind of auto-pilot, the heart of which is this no-mind focal asana. It isn't ordinarily natural for mind and body to be completely relaxed in a high-stress situation for instance - but once this discipline is acquired can fairly naturally be invoked. What is natural for the adept is not natural to the novice, so I think we are probably stumbling over this differing definitions of the word itself.

The relationship of the autonomic to psychic asana of no-mind is very important. In most cases this ability denotes a degree of expertise already established in the first instance.

m1

[Darkwater]

Ok, so would we then conclude that the state of *no-mind* that is described above is indeed the *natural state of mind*?

A lot of resonation/chanting/sounds we learn from the ancients are part of a language we knew & used at the time of our birth.

In time as human we forget this language as we are not encouraged to use this.

This is why it is hard to remember the things they want us to forget.Once we learn to remember again/again this is again fully alligned with nature.

Nature mind,just *be* & unravel,then rebuild yourself more perfectly alligned.

[m1thr0s]

A lot of resonation/chanting/sounds we learn from the ancients are part of a language we knew & used at the time of our birth.that sounds comforting, but I don't think it actually rings true...can you cite a few examples of this maybe???
As a parent I can't say I have any recall of any such innate language skills or abilities...

m1

[Darkwater]

that sounds comforting, but I don't think it actually rings true...can you cite a few examples of this maybe???
As a parent I can't say I have any recall of any such innate language skills or abilities...

m1

(1) astral vision & all astral senses form before your regualr ones in the womb,the brightly coloured paisley pattern swirls & tails we call the placenta.Placenta & babies communicate.So babies can *see*,*feel*,*touch* & hear by pure resonation,taste too?

As for the lost language,I only heard this this morning from a reiki master who explained that babies are born ready to communicate in any language.

She said Chinese is closest?

I'd be very happy to investigate,my best guess being sanskrit,a language which I love & would be very happy to try to illustrate to you the best I can.

Mind is like a muscle,the more you excersise it the stronger & healthier it gets.

With enough practice I could maybe build up to the shrill Elven data transfer which the subconscious is linke to.

Great Question!

[m1thr0s]

well it's another topic really for another thread I guess but i don't think this logic is very sound - sure, human babies come into the world highly adaptable to language just as baby horses are up and running sometimes in only a few minutes...that's just natural selection though...speech is so important for human beings that if we don't acquire it our brains will not develop correctly... and the damage cannot be repaired at a later point in life!!!

that doesn't give any special credit to any particular language I can think of...

m1