Uthark

[Luciftias]

Has anyone studied the Uthark sequence of runes? Is it worthy of study? I have only recently heard about it. Basically the first rune of the Futhark series is placed at the end. This supposely has helped some people unlock some "dark" secrets? That's all I really know about it.

Luciftias

[Talkingfox]

I'd be interested in your source materials on this one :)

[Talkingfox]

I've been giving this some serious thought since you first posted. I personally couldn't find any logical reason to switch up the order within the Aett.

The sphere relationships within Yggsdrasil are pretty fluid as it is....plus I don't know of ANYONE who actually works the whole futhark at once. I think that any combination of runes or bindrune sigils can be created to work as the practitioner requires. Another plus is that it makes things a whole lot easier to sing.

Also consider there are a number of thoughts on the Aett and sphere alignments as well. Is one using the earlier 18 or later 24 Old Norse Futhark? The Icelandic? The Saxon? The Fresian?

IMO the original Icelandic and Old Norse Rune poems as well as the Raven Song in the Havamal deserve more attention.

There's nothing really 'secret' about the darkness inherent in the system to my way of thinking.

[Ratatosk]

This supposely has helped some people unlock some "dark" secrets?I think the deep dark secret is that the whole system is neither light, nor dark, but both at the same time.

...plus I don't know of ANYONE who actually works the whole futhark at once. Heh, that would be kind of like singing "A B C D E F G ... H I J K LMNOP ..." and so on. Works great for a kid's song, but not so well for serious workings.

The biggest trouble I see with this "move Feoh to the end dark secret" is that now instead of starting the journey from a solid foundation (Feoh is wealth, but not in the sense of more than one needs, just in the "comfortable" sense) and working first through the middle worlds, into the underworld, and emerging into the higher worlds, you are starting in the middle worlds with Ur (the chance to add to your wealth, but at a really serious risk of failure, injury or even death, wild oxen do not like it when you capture them), moving into the underworld, emerging to the higher worlds, and then BANG!!! - slamming yourself back down to earth, in a comfortable situation.

Comfort does not always lead to growth, in fact, it can lead to stagnation.

Really though, working with runes is (IMHO) best accomplished through the use of bind-runes. Bind-runes are essentially power words that you coin, and then carve, and then sing into action.

Think Mozart's requiem rather than the alphabet song.

My $ .02

[Luciftias]

Hey,

Thanks for the replies! I've been pretty busy so haven't spent as much time on here. The place I read about it was on the website for the LHP order "Dragon Rouge" (http://www.dragonrouge.net/).

This is what they say about it on the main page:
In Dragon Rouge we are working with the runes in many different forms. One aspect is the disputed Uthark, which is thought to be the inner and hidden form of the rune row. We are also using the runosophical system of the Adulrunes by Johannes Bureus. The inner dimensions of the runes are called Adulrunor or Alrunor (Mandragora).

I think there is another spot where they add a few more sentences about it, but they don't say much. That's the only time I've ever heard of it.

Luciftias

[Ratatosk]

Huh, that's the only time I've heard of it as well. They seem to have some rather, ah, unorthodox ideas about Odin too.

Odin is a dark and demonic god and the Odinic runosophy also includes lycantropy and necromancy. The Odinic Runosophy is a form of Gothic magic. The Gothic magic is not only Runosophy and rune magic which focuses on the old Norse runic symbols. The Gothic magic is connected to the nightside and the dark mysteries. This separates the Gothic magic from the forms of rune magic that are connected to Asatro and the strife to recreate the old Norse faith. Gothic magic can not be connected to a certain time or place. The Gothic magic corresponds to a mythical dimension in which man becomes a god.I had always considered Gothic anything as relating to the Goths (Visigoths, Ostrogoths and Vandals) which can indeed be pinned to a place and time. I do however understand their desire to distance themselves from "Asatru" as there are entirely too many within that path who are using it as an excuse for a racist agenda. (The same reason so many Heathens wish to distance themselves from that particular form of practice, beside which it tends to be very religious in nature.)

I don't think I have seen anything linking Odin to lycanthropy or necromancy. I am not saying they are wrong, per se, I mean if it works for them, great.

As far as dark mysteries go, the entire Norse path is loaded - things are not so easily distinguishable re light and dark. This is a mythology based on the utter defeat of enemies, going willingly into battle and some very, shall we say, "tricksy" maneuvers to get what you want. But this is also a mythology based on self-sacrifice for the good of kith and kin. And the more you read the sagas the more you find the lines between light and dark, good and evil, right and wrong becoming blurred, even fluid. Pretty much it boils down to how your actions stack up in the end. If you deceive your enemies you are doing it to protect you and yours. If you deceive your own kin or kith, well, wrong answer!

If you get any more information on this, or on how they are approaching the whole thing I would be very interested, just not interested enough to spend the $46 (at the current euro conversion rate) to find out. :p

[Ratatosk]

Okay,

Just found some more on this:
The first mention I see of this comes from Kenneth Meadows (in Rune Power) - although the majority of his books are about Medicine Wheel stuff (Native American trad) and from what little I read of his book it is fluff-bunny drivel. He tries to state that the runes should start with Ur, because it represents the aurochs (a now-extinct European buffalo) and everyone knows that creation begins with the buffalo. WHA??? It sounds like he is trying to apply plains Native American ideals onto a Northern European system. :no: [BTW, the American "buffalo" is actually a bison]

Actually, ur represents the possibility of capturing the the wild ox (aurochs), and adding it to one's herd to both increase the size of one's herd and the hardiness of the stock. If you remove feoh (cattle, wealth) from the equation first, how do you capture the aurochs and add it to your (non-existent) stock? It is actually the domestic herd which calms the wild ox and keeps it from running off the first chance it gets. Anyway ...

He bases his rune information on the work of Edred Thorsson, AKA Edred Flowers, AKA Stephen Flowers. While Flowers does his research, he also applies only those things he finds in his research that fit his Aryan-superiority agenda. Those things that don't fit he omits or twists until they do fit.

I will give him credit, however, for reawakening the research into the runes and the Norse sagas in general in the US.


Personally, I find Meadows to be only slightly less than useless, and Flowers/Thorsson is OK, if you are used to picking through the BS to get at the real info.

[Naomi]

Well goth I think comes from a french word, can't recall it exactly, but it was used to describe the pastimers who went on weekend visits down to the city morgue to view the unfortunate victims of Paris's 19th century streets of crime...it was considered quite the entertainment back then, and quite respectable for doctors, paupers and high society alike. Later on, after ye olde 80's maybe the rumor grew that goth came from the germans.

But that's ok because it partially inspired the industrial rivethead movement which is also very fun...

Anyways Meadows is WEIRD. You can just look at the history of the planet to realize not ALL creation happens with the buffalo...snakes came before them and still fish before that.

Unless he would like to insinuate the great cosmic space buffalo presented itself as a Triceratops.....not something I havn't thought of.

Nandi is the vehicle of Siva, but Nandi isn't Siva himself....and the only thing actually on Siva are snakes and sometimes hot chicks....

SO yeah. Irrelevant BS. Personally speaking.

Runes are powerful though, but I don't think a book from Barnes and Noble is going to help clear the mists...having bought a great many of them after pouring over my options carefully I must say I've not been too thrilled with commercial occultism.

[Talkingfox]

Actually, ur represents the possibility of capturing the the wild ox (aurochs), and adding it to one's herd to both increase the size of one's herd and the hardiness of the stock. If you remove feoh (cattle, wealth) from the equation first, how do you capture the aurochs and add it to your (non-existent) stock?
.

Ok I agree with this in part...I think that the underlying wyrd is more complex denoting more of an overall manifested strength, albeit a less than controllable or predictable one. And while on the surface the 2 runes appear to be linked in nature, Ur is more about roots of strength...thus manifesting on a practical level out in Feoh.



Naomichan I'm with you on this one...Meadows is weird while almost totally missing the Wryd......

[Ratatosk]

I think that the underlying wyrd is more complex denoting more of an overall manifested strength, albeit a less than controllable or predictable one. And while on the surface the 2 runes appear to be linked in nature, Ur is more about roots of strength...thus manifesting on a practical level out in Feoh.Perhaps I should have expanded on that concept a bit. If you look at ur as a more elemental strength, and feoh as a manifest strength, you will get nowhere in trying to control the greater elemental strength imparted by ur if you don't already posses your own manifested strength with which to harness it.

...Meadows is weird while almost totally missing the Wryd...I LOL'd :rofl:

[Dragon]

Well goth I think comes from a french word, can't recall it exactly, but it was used to describe the pastimers who went on weekend visits down to the city morgue to view the unfortunate victims of Paris's 19th century streets of crime...it was considered quite the entertainment back then, and quite respectable for doctors, paupers and high society alike. Later on, after ye olde 80's maybe the rumor grew that goth came from the germans.

The Goths were one of the Teutonic tribes, like the Visigoths, the Franks (the French), the Winnili (Lombards), the Vandals, etc. etc. etc. They kicked each others, and everybody else's butts across Europe ever since they came across the Caucasus Mountains. Most of what we consider "white people" come from their stock, including the Anglo-Saxons. There is a lot of Gothic architecture in Paris to be sure...But the Goths and the Franks were ancient enemies....at least until Rome came to dinner.

The word "Goth" as it applies to pop culture didn't really appear really until the 90's...before then it was just an "alternative" lifestyle....Funny...all these "Goths', "vampires" and other "races of Lilith" came bursting onto the club scene right about the time that the role playing game Vampire: The Masquerade came out.


Coincidence? I THINK NOT!

~D~

[Talkingfox]

That is...unless Naomichan was speaking of the Gothick (their spelling not mine) revival movement of the 19th century. Woohoo! Byron!

[Dragon]

That is...unless Naomichan was speaking of the Gothick (their spelling not mine) revival movement of the 19th century. Woohoo! Byron!



That "K" thing again...jeeeeezz.well...let us be clear on our terms them..hehehe


~D~

[Naomi]

I was talking about the contemporary underground culture. It predates the White Wolf game which actually was directed at the underground scene and notthe producer of the culture.

Goth split off from punk is really a modern echo of the beat generation. Same scene different names, different age.

[Talkingfox]

Sorry Naomichan...I wasn't being clear in my response...I was addressing your comment on the 19th century roots of the term.

Either way IMO the thread has strayed a bit from the runic works we were discussing..... So...just for the sake of semantics lets just assume that at least when I mention Goths I mean the tribe, Gothick or Gothique (en francais) I mean the 19th century thing, and as far as contemporary movements go (which I DO agree FAR predates the WhiteWolf thang) well, how about as individuals on a first name basis when possible??

On that note...I saw a really funny shirt at a festival : If you're a Goth where were you when we sacked Rome?

Not meant to be a slam on the culture....just thought the play on terms was funny

[Napsteria]

If anyone would like to read more about the Uthark there is a book called "Uthark - Nightside of the Runes" written in English by the leader of the order Dragon Rouge mentioned above. The book isn't extremely deep and for me it worked as my first rune book, and so far only one. He also wrote a book called "Adulrunan" which I have not read but I think it's part of his Ph.D. work.

BTW, I am not a member in said order.

[Talkingfox]

Thanks! I'll be checking that out for sure!

[Talkingfox]

I don't think I have seen anything linking Odin to lycanthropy or necromancy. I am not saying they are wrong, per se, I mean if it works for them, great.



I beg to differ. Seidr workings are all about shape shifting and hamfara, to include speaking to and working with the dead. The passing of the knowledge of said practices from Freja to Odin creates that link.
These very things are brought up in this thread.
http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1083