A Shot in the Dark...

[m1thr0s]

I actually have no idea what the PP take on ethics is or why it is classed as one of the 3 main areas of emphasis (which is why this forum is here actually). I need to do some digging to understand this better but I have my own ideas anyway so I am just going to toss this out...

It seems to me that there is a kind of universal "ethics" involved with the whole idea of attempting to become a "better person" on any level that also might actually benefit other people in some way. So, if becoming a better person just means becoming rich etc, I don't think that this counts, and it doesn't matter that you might be providing work for others etc..that's just a dodge...it's got nothing to do with anything.

I have always thought that real self-improvement is an obligation, not a choice. We have a commitment to our species (at least) whether we like it or not. There is no standing still and there is no neutral ground on this. Whoever is not busy being born is busy dying, and inevitably dragging something or someone along with them. We are none of us truly isolated...we are a part of a whole system and we owe that system our attention and our best efforts.

People can balk at that all they like but at the end of the day if you are not busting your hump to be part of the solution, you are, by default, part of the problem. There's just no way to cop to any kind of innocence on this one. Maybe if you were so mentally deficient you couldn't even consider it, that would be different, but if all your wits are mostly intact, I think you're on the hook whether you own up to this or not.

So anyway...just thought I would toss that out there and see who hates it or doesn't. It's not a "bad" thing and it's not a "restrictive" thing...it's just the simple facts of life in my opinion...

m1thr0s

[Kain]

Well m1thr0s, you've pretty much covered my own approach on the subject, as I view so-called "ethics" this way as well. In fact, it's the only valid way to even discuss ethics in the first place, come to think of it.

Kain

[m1thr0s]

ethics isn't my strongest suit, yet I am a very ethical person in certain respects. Not in all respects I think...there are certainly many areas where I simply do not agree with the general concensus. If a person is hungry and they have no money and they steal food or money I do not consider this unethical behavior. It is the unethical behavior of society itself that places them in that situation to begin with in my view...

But when the matter turns to the larger issues of Self, aside from the day-to-day struggle to survive, in that respect I think I am probably very nearly a godamm saint...only in that I am very strongly committed to living a life that benefits somebody, and, as much as possible, as many people as possible...

But I think one can do all of this without necessarily taking on the whole damn universe. People that make personal sacrifices for their art or to achieve some greater good on nearly any level at all are all attending to this "obligation" in my opinion. They are prioritizing life itself in ways that really matter and ultimately make all the difference between a world worth living in and a world not worth the price of admission...

yeah...saint freaking m1thr0s...I can see them rolling in the aisles already. This may sound peculiar coming from someone who professes an affinity for Satanic Philosophy, which is presumably all about "motivated self-interest". But then, to understand what makes "motivated self-interest" work, you have to break down the whole self vs Self thing to begin with. Satanism, at its best, is actually a highly *ethical* philosophical position.

but this that I am addressing right here is not about Satanism...it's really about "balanced being" in general...

m1thr0s

[Kain]

yeah...saint freaking m1thr0s...I can see them rolling in the aisles already. This may sound peculiar coming from someone who professes an affinity for Satanic Philosophy, which is presumably all about "motivated self-interest". But then, to understand what makes "motivated self-interest" work, you have to break down the whole self vs Self thing to begin with. Satanism, at its best, is actually a highly *ethical* philosophical position.

but this that I am addressing right here is not about Satanism...it's really about "balanced being" in general......hehe...not really, I can actually link the two quite flawlessly and directly in my mind personally. I think this "obligation" you refer to is actually all about Motivated Self-Interest, and as you have said, in order to approach that issue succesfully, you need to have resolved the often supposed "self vs Self" contradiction.

So approaching "Balanced Being" for as many people as possible could be actually classed the *cornerstone* of (actually and pragmatically) informed Motivated Self-Interest...

Kain

[fr.novumorganum]

Ah, I love discussions of ethics!

I still find the classic enlightenment ethics of Locke very reasonable, and among modern thinkers, Habermas proposes IMHO the best model.

Odd how much of these discussions remind me of Franklin. Did you know he was one of the first proponents and practicioners of 'motivated self-interest', and perhaps the first self-help guru in America. He too felt man's purpose here was two-fold: to improve the self and to improve society. In the early American republic, his model was the most anti-aristorcratic b/c he felt that aristocracy prevented the majority of men from improving themselves.

(interesting side notes; Franklin was of course a member of both the hellfire and the brimstone clubs, as well as a radical mason. Also one of hist earliest adult journal entires reads: Every star in the universe has its own god and is its own system. :eek:

[m1thr0s]

I always knew I liked that cat...now I'm sure of it...good lord...talk about being ahead of your time!

m1thr0s

[Radiant Star]

This is a topic I have thought a lot about over the years in one way or another. These days the word ‘ethics’ often seems to be tied to food issues as in ‘ethical farming’ and the environment.

Somehow motivated self interest seems to say to me that we are taking good care of ourselves and our development; doing the Great Work and from that surely must flow benefits for all around us. Self interest and taking care of our own needs means that we don’t become a burden to someone else. That would include treating our body well so that it supports us and watching how our words and actions impact on other around us. Although these things are not fashionable these days, for me, it would also mean being kindly, watching my language, helping someone if I had time and was able, and saying sorry. It would also mean trying to be as authentic and genuine as possible because there is nothing better than feeling at one with yourself. These are probably very self interested at the root of them, but they have always seemed to serve me and others around me well enough.

To act ethically is to make choices to behave in a way that respects oneself and others. Clearly this is not possible all of the time; occasionally things get the better of us and we let rip in some way or another, but generally, it must mean to try to make the best choices in whatever situation one finds oneself. It also means to make reparation at the earliest opportunity when we find we have fallen short of any reasonable benchmark; to apologize or explain or sometimes to keep silent so that no further damage is done; we must make these choices in spite of what others might think or say, though if it provokes a reaction in them that might cause harm to ourselves or others, then what appears to be the right thing will probably not be in this situation.

For me it involves looking at consequences, although we cannot predict the exact outcome of everthing we do, we certainly can be aware of things that we know are likely to cause harm to others because there is nothing that we do that does not affect another in some way and we are all party to the outcomes of other peoples experiences as well as our own; there is often little excuse in the older person to say that they didn’t know such and such could happen.

It is about aspiring to do the best with what we have at any given moment, even though in practice it doesn’t always work out like that.

[m1thr0s]

I said earlier that one doesn't necessarily have to take on the whole universe to fulfill this *obligation*...and yet...in another sense, this is a little disingenuous. Taking on the whole universe (as you understand it at least) is sort of integral to everything we are discussing here. It's just a little difficult to own up to the magnitude of the task I think. One would like to think...oh well...that's not such a big deal. But it is a big deal...one of the biggest deals of all. People make sacrifices to foot that bill...big ones...sometimes costing them their very lives and almost always impacting the course of the lives they lead. Not always negatively, but there is always a risk factor involved I think.

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

I know it seems like an odd place to pick up an ethics lesson, but Asimov's robot series, and the "Three Laws of Robotics" are actually a pretty decent explanation of ethical behavior on a personal level.

The rules as written:
1. No robot may harm a human or through inaction allow a human to come to harm.

2. A robot must obey any order given by a human, except where that order would conflict with the first law.

3. A robot must protect itself except where that would interfere with the first or second law.

So, to rewrite the rules for humans:

1. No human may harm another, or through inaction allow another to come to harm.

2. A human must obey the rules of his/her kith, kin and *country, except where they would conflict with the first law.

3. A human must protect him/herself, except where that would conflict with the first two laws.

So, common sense also allows for the zeroth law (which showed up in later series - No robot may harm humanity or through inaction allow humanity to come to harm - I think you can noodle out the "human" version) - which fits in more where this discussion has been so far: in the larger concepts.

* On a side note: there are a lot of rules of law related to country that are in direct violation of either the first, or the zeroth law.:o_O:

[m1thr0s]

Ratatosk: I have given this a little thought...here's the rub

If the first law is impossible the rest cannot inherit...

I think your first rule is practically unfeasible...humans are totally locked into this thing called civilization which is at its core detrimental to all humans!

or at least all "other" humans...:laugh:

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

(interesting side notes; Franklin was of course a member of both the hellfire and the brimstone clubs, as well as a radical mason. Also one of hist earliest adult journal entires reads: Every star in the universe has its own god and is its own system. :eek:

Ah, Sir Francis Dahswood and his pagan pursuits of lust, magick and horsewipping! A very cool historical character... who I would contend is still alive, attached to the House of Perrier (wine and minerla water, based near Montpellier in France), and called Laurent nowadays...

Ain't life interesting sometimes? Was wondering why I found it difficult to get a reading on you all this time Fr NovumOrganum...

m1thr0s: Yes, I agree, you are ethically perfect. It is one of the reasons I find you admirable and like you.

mortals: ethical perfection is just a question of doing what you know anyway is right in every situation. Most of you just follow your own comfort and look the other way in many things. The difference is ethics. It is based on courage, self-confidence and inner strength. For ore information, copy many of the members of this forum, you learn that way.

Forum regulars: I would like to submit the last above paragraph as an example of what I think ethics is based on: attitude and character.

Regards all,
Oazaki.