Are Heathens Pagan?

[Talkingfox]

Ok here's a question for y'all. Would you consider those who follow the Heathen Traditions Pagan? I know semantically it's so, but I curious as to a more expanded viewpoint.
I know some Heathens that absolutely bristle when you call them pagan..and others who could care less and still others that embrace the moniker.

Your Thoughts?

[Ratatosk]

My take on it, hmm, this could take a while, but here goes.

The term Pagan, to me at least, connotes a certain religiosity which I, myself, do not possess. Although semantically the term Pagan means "not a 'Child of the Book' (Christian, Jew, Muslim)" it falls down in usage. Would you consider an Atheist to be "Pagan?" How about a Buddhist or Hindu?

So, taking the term as having the meaning of the most common usage, I would have to say that, no, Heathens are not Pagans. To me, the term Heathen denotes a way of being rather than a "religion." In the same sense that Buddhism is a philosophical rather than religious path.

The workings associated with Heathenism are more shamanic in nature (dealing more with ancestors, spirits of place and then god-forms), while Heathenism itself is more a code of conduct than anything else.

The most concise version of that code of conduct I have seen to date is at Northvegr (http://www.northvegr.org/) and is laid out as "The Praiseworthy Virtues of the North (http://www.northvegr.org/northern/book/praiseworthy.php)."


1. Gifting is praiseworthy.
2. Generosity is praiseworthy.
3. Moderation is praiseworthy.
4. The maintaining of frith (http://www.ealdriht.org/meaningfrith.html) in all circumstances is praiseworthy.
5. Courage is praiseworthy.
6. The seeking of good over ill is praiseworthy.
7. Hospitality is praiseworthy.
8. Courtesy is praiseworthy.
9. Tolerance is praiseworthy.
10. The pursuit of wisdom and knowledge is praiseworthy.
11. The defense of freedom is praiseworthy.
12. Industriousness is praiseworthy.
13. Vigilance is praiseworthy.
14. The protection, nurturing and forbearing of kin is praiseworthy.
15. Showing respect for elders is praiseworthy.
16. Loyalty to friends and kin is praiseworthy.
17. Keeping an oath is praiseworthy.
18. Honoring the sanctity of marriage is praiseworthy.
19. Refraining from mockery is praiseworthy.
2o. Refraining from arrogance is praiseworthy.
21. Making kin, honor and justice more important than gold is praiseworthy.
22. Cleanliness is praiseworthy.
23. The maintaining of one's dignity in all situations is praiseworthy.
24. Good organization is praiseworthy.
25. Persistence is praiseworthy.
26. The rule of law is praiseworthy.
27. To try ones steel against an opponent fairly is praiseworthy.
28. Respect for the dead is praiseworthy.
29. For a man to never strike a woman is praiseworthy.
30. To not abuse one's power is praiseworthy.

With that said, I think it is completely possible for a person to be both Heathen and Pagan (or Hindu, or Christian or whatever) but Heathen does not equal Pagan.

This is my opinion, there are many like it, but this is mine.

[Dragon]

As far as I know the term pagan would encompass Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism, and any other ism not stemming from the Old Testament. Although because athiests don't actually worship I think they would not be considered pagans, but simply DAMNED FOR ALL ETERNITY MWA HA HA HA!....

As far as heathens go, they were a specific type of pagans that met on the moors ( Heeeeathcliiiiff!) or "on the heath" to escape notice from certain persecuting authorities. The practice of meeting in the wild open goes as far back as...well...the wild open, so the term by association could be construed to mean "those that gather in the open/ out of doors"; also those that gather in secret...out of doors/in the open. But unless one is meeting specifically on a heath...one is adopting a style, not a tradition. My opinion.


Die heathen scum!


hehehe....

~D~

[Ratatosk]

As far as heathens go, they were a specific type of pagans that met on the moors ( Heeeeathcliiiiff!) or "on the heath" to escape notice from certain persecuting authorities. Well, that goes back to my previous post, that I am considering the terms in their most common usage rather than their semantic or etymological sense. Etymologically speaking the term Heathen applies to anyone who lives on the heath, and Pagan (from pagani) refers to anyone who lives in a rural setting. Of course, by the time the term Pagan was applied to "old believers" by Christians, the term was meant to be a slight, as in hick or hillbilly.

But unless one is meeting specifically on a heath...one is adopting a style, not a tradition.What I am speaking to is the term Heathenism as it is most commonly used (at least within the magickal community) as being a path rooted in and based upon the myths, traditions and sagas of Northern Europe, to include Scandinavia, Iceland, and the Teutonic regions of Central Europe.


And as I said in my previous post, Paganism (as it is generally used in the magickal community) connotes a certain religiosity which Heathenism does not.

Die heathen scum!Remember, when you bring your armies behind big white shields with bright red crosses on them that they make a great target for the flaming balls of pitch! :laugh:

[m1thr0s]

I seem to have missed some of the finer points of all this sort of lingo...I suspect a lot of "hillbilly" Xian-types might have also...

but I was always under the impression that heathenism especially denoted those who followed a belief system not inclusive of any anthropomorphic Deity...so Taoists would be Heathens...Buddhists would be Heathens...many Indians (both western and eastern) would be Heathens etc...

yet any racial, religious or cultural slur is prone to exponential variations so I think the term has also come to mean anything other than "our god" generally...I have heard certain Xian sects refer to other Xian sects as "heathens" etc...

I am certainly a heathen for calling Christians Xians, even though it's mainly just laziness...lol...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

OK to clarify what I meant in the original question, I was speaking of the term Heathen in modern metaphysical/spiritual usage meaning those who follow the Northern Trads. It's a term that's been reclaimed not unlike the term "Witch" or "Pagan". Some people have even taken the Old Norse/Icelandic spelling "heathinn" just to clear up semantic issues (not unlike "Magick".)

[m1thr0s]

so...who exactly is using this term in this way?
I probably just don't get out enough but I don't interact with anybody that has ever actually used this term in the way you describe...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

so...who exactly is using this term in this way?
I probably just don't get out enough but I don't interact with anybody that has ever actually used this term in the way you describe...

m1thr0s


Actually you do occasionally interact people who use the term....Ratatosk being one of them.

So as to who uses the term....it's a catch-all for the Northern Way, including Asa- centrics, Vana-centrics, Workers of Sejdr and all the other myriad of possibilities within the Tradition. It's like the not all Witches are Wiccan, but all Wiccans are Witches kind of thing.

I personally think the term has become more popular as a way of distancing oneself from the knucklewalking types that try and use a path (one that is more shamanic than anything) to further their own racist agendas.

[m1thr0s]

hmmm...well I can't really fault the term itself, aside from its derogatory connotations. But then, when you consider the source of those insinuations, it's really more like an accusation of intelligence...lol

the term itself is peculiarly reminiscent of hearth and home somehow...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

hmmm...well I can't really fault the term itself, aside from its derogatory connotations. But then, when you consider the source of those insinuations, it's really more like an accusation of intelligence...lol

the term itself is peculiarly reminiscent of hearth and home somehow...

m1thr0s

VERY much a part of it! Although there are other bits that are not unlike being hit upside the head with a flaming mallet....

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Call me a linguistic conservative but...Pagan is the Latin for "of the country", and Heathen is it's Teutonic equivalent, "of the heath (=country)". A Heathen complaining about being a Pagan is basically showing his dislike of the English language's Latin inheritance. It's like an Adder complaining about being called a Viper...