Why are the Vanir portrayed as softies!?

[Nuhad418]

As some of you on these forums know I'm a bit demented by the Norse pantheon and heathen culture at the moment. When I get demented it means major transformations and many hours of research, reading and practice.

I have been reading sources on the Norse gods (from very beginner to academic works as I find this the best way to approach topics (there is never a bad book...at least not until you lear more to say why it sucks! lol)...though I have not yet read the eddas) and surfing webpages. What strikes me as odd is how Frey (and to a degree Freya and Njord) is portrayed as this all benificent and loving god on many internet heathen sites. Surely, given Frey's connection to nature there is a dark shadow looming very near the surface. Those of you who honour or work with the Vanir, do you find modern portrails of them, like the kind I mention, accurate or do you find them lacking in depth?

Happy Solstice!

[Talkingfox]

I find them lacking in depth.
Um you want dark shadow???? Try the far north in winter.
Or summer for that matter. I suspect that many people who write that sweetness and light drivel have never actually LIVED in arctic and subarctic environments. There are a million ways to die and few of them are expected or pleasant. I think Freyr and Freja's boars kind of speak to that.
There is some archeological evidence that points to Njord and Nerthus actually being the same form...and a hermaphroditic one to boot.

Keep in mind that a whole lot of the interpretations of the sagas happened after christianisation....so if it's reallly pretty it has to be reallly "good".
I think that also plays out in the Giants baaaad/Asa gooood thing. According to the earlier sagas and the Poetic Edda (the earlier of the 2 Edda's) this kind of ultimate duality just doesn't wash.
The Vanir beheaded a hostage (Mimir) when they thought that a deal was not being honored to their satisfaction, Freyr is prone to extreme moodiness and threatened the object of his less than mutual desire with a particularly nasty curse. All beneficent? I think not.

All the good stuff's in the Poetic Eddas and the Icelandic Sagas IMO

[Nuhad418]

All the good stuff's in the Poetic Eddas and the Icelandic Sagas IMO

That's what I figured...and that's the next step I'm going to take. Not that they are identical, but I could never understand how some Wiccan traditions (and many of the sources) make Cernnunos to be a joyus god having a dance in the woods. Of course I've managed a few study groups and one time I asked how people envisioned "the God" and one woman replied the Devil from Legend! It takes all kinds I guess. :o_O:

[Talkingfox]

LOLOLOL I think that Freyr is ESPECIALLY limited in common view. Aelfheim = Elfhome.....we all know KNOW what lovey sweet little creatures elves are, right??
Except when they bite of course......

[Ratatosk]

Surely, given Frey's connection to nature there is a dark shadow looming very near the surface. Hmmm - have you considered this: Frejr & Freja are the twin children of (in the later works) Njord and Skadi. Considering that Njord is a later appellation for Nerthus. As in the form refered to by Tacitus in Germany and its Tribes as Eartha, to whom human sacrifices were made.

Also consider the story of Hrafnkel, Frejr's Goði: As is true of all Goðis of Frejr, he dedicated a horse, Frejfaxi, to Frejr, which means that no one is permitted to ride it, or, in fact, even touch it (except for a Goði of Frejr), under pain of death. When all the sheep and horses get loose, the only animal left around is Frejfaxi. Hrafnkel's servant, Einar, jumps on the horse and runs after the escaped animals. He returns with the animals, and the horse returns to Hrafnkel, all in a lather and muddy. Hrafnkel heads down to the pasture where the sheep are, asks Einar what happened, and Einer admits to having ridden Frejfaxi whereupon Hrafnkel immediately kills Einar with an axe.

Ahh, light and sweetness. http://www.evardsson.com/sqicons/sqlaugh.gif

There is lots more, and frankly, I'm confused as to where all the Vanir = pussy bunny-fluffers crap comes from in the first place. http://www.evardsson.com/sqicons/sqhuh.gif

Cheers!

[Talkingfox]

I think a great deal of it comes from Sturlsson's interpretations of the earlier Kennings of the poetic Eddas and Skaldic Verse. The more I read of Sturlsson in contrast to the earlier works the less satisfied I am with the Prose Eddas as an accurate interpretation of the Northern Worldview. I think that Snorri pulled the teeth from the mythos in his quest to try to impose the Divine Right of Kingship model.

But, of course, Sturlsson is a much easier read than the earlier works and require no personal effort in the kenning. IMO that's why the Prose Eddas are usually cited as the definitive source materials.

EDIT: I forgot to mention obvious xtian interpolations as well...especially when it comes to the writings on Raganrok and the overall role of Loki in the mythology. Incestuous relationships within the gods were more or less axed, extra heavens added, a brand new series of extra nasty hells...yaddayaddayadda

[Lucian]

I wonder - could it also have something to do with his sister's fame?

I've noticed that as a goddess of love and sex Freyja always gets stuck in the role of sex kitten, and her other roles as a war goddess and the Vanir that taught Wodan trance and sex magic are usually played down if they are mentioned at all.

Perhaps people look at the sweetness and light of his twin sister and assume Freyr must be equally as warm and benificent. It doesn't help that there are fewer well known myths about Freyr than there are about Freyja.

I think it just comes down to laziness that most sites don't bother to post anything more substantial.

Anyone who really looks at this pantheon would know that this is a pretty incomplete characterization. Freyja was a sacred whore, a terror in battle, leader of the Valkyries, a bad ass sorceress, and "femme fatale". She's got a pretty strong dark side. All Norse gods do. It only makes sense that Freyr would as well.

It's been a while since I researched the Norse pantheon, though. Years. So my own knowledge on the subject is probably pretty fuzzy by now.

[Ratatosk]

I've noticed that as a goddess of love and sex Freyja always gets stuck in the role of sex kitten,
...snip...
Freyja was a sacred whore, a terror in battle, leader of the Valkyries, a bad ass sorceress, and "femme fatale". She's got a pretty strong dark side. All Norse gods do. It only makes sense that Freyr would as well.
Hmm, the only place where I have seen Freja linked up with love (as opposed to sex & death & seið) is in children's story books - based on the Victorian-era romanticized versions of the Mythology.

And actually, the only time anyone is mentioned as a leader of the Valkyries, (in the Heroic Lays) she is always a beautiful human woman, and daughter of a King. I think I might have seen something in those Victorian romances that did try to tie Freja to the Valkyrie, but can't say that I remember that correctly for sure. Mostly I just dismissed those tellings as useless dreck. :p

:yes: As far as the rest, bad-ass, sorceress-trainer of Odin/Wodan/Wotan, and dark - yes indeedy! And considering that Frej/Freja are (like most twin-gods) two halves of the same thing. Although in personal experience I think you'll find that Freja is more likely to get involved in human affairs while Frej mostly couldn't give a shit.

[Talkingfox]

I think I might have seen something in those Victorian romances that did try to tie Freja to the Valkyrie, but can't say that I remember that correctly for sure. Mostly I just dismissed those tellings as useless dreck. :p


Drivel indeed! I think that was just a way to try and compartmentalize to a more X-tian friendly kind of layout. Supreme father god has control of everything, right???? SO that would mean that Freja had no right to choose of the slain except as an arm of Odin.

What is omitted is within the mythos Freja has FIRST PICK of the slain...before Odin , Valkyries or anything else. Given that one of the major roles of the valkyrie is to serve beer in Valhalla, well, I can't help but think that alignment is more a means of trying to 'domesticate' the form. :rolleyes:

[Ratatosk]

Given that one of the major roles of the valkyrie is to serve beer in Valhalla, well, I can't help but think that alignment is more a means of trying to 'domesticate' the form.(emphasis mine)

Let's see, domesticating Freja would be something like 'domesticating' a bear sow. "She will be my domestic pet, she will cook and clean and wear a tutu and bring me beer and tend my children."

Okaaaay, we'll see how well that worked out for you when she has eaten your food, (and your children) drank all your beer and ripped all of your furnishing to shreds to make soft bedding for her cubs.

[Lucian]

Hmm, the only place where I have seen Freja linked up with love (as opposed to sex & death & seið) is in children's story books - based on the Victorian-era romanticized versions of the Mythology.

And actually, the only time anyone is mentioned as a leader of the Valkyries, (in the Heroic Lays) she is always a beautiful human woman, and daughter of a King. I think I might have seen something in those Victorian romances that did try to tie Freja to the Valkyrie, but can't say that I remember that correctly for sure. Mostly I just dismissed those tellings as useless dreck. :p

Hmmmm. Well, I'm not going to agree or disagree on either of these. To do that I'd have to go back and scan my old books and... meh. I feel alright leaving it at that.

[Talkingfox]

Hmm, the only place where I have seen Freja linked up with love (as opposed to sex & death & seið) is in children's story books - based on the Victorian-era romanticized versions of the Mythology.


Well you know how it goes....Love becomes the euphamism for a full out ferocious f***. you know, the kind that scares missionaries??:rofl:

I HAVE seen the valkyrie/Freja alignment in other sources but they have, as a whole, been later sources (post 14th cent.) Being as the Odinic Cult is a relative newcomer to the scene I think the 'taming' of the Vana in general was probably a natural outcome of the new gods trying to replace the old ones, as so often happens. Add a certain missionary penchant for editorializing to that and well..you know...

Speaking of valkyrie...talk about a watered down concept! The earlier Skaldic verses speak of an energy that is far more reminiscent of gut-guzzling rakshasi than of lovely tragic Brunhilda. I recently saw this great early carving of a valkyrie weaving entrails on a loom. I find it interesting that the carving was contemporary to the verses that connect the youngest of the Greater Norns to the Valkyrie. Taking care of what SHOULD be as it were.

As I re-read the early works I often laugh out loud picturing how her Royal Heinie Victoria and all the 19th cent. upperclass House of Hanover wannabes
would have handled a REAL revival of their Teutonic roots....might make decorating for the holidays interesting :eek:

[Nuhad418]

I want to thank everyone for their posts here...there are many leads for me to follow. I have to agree that, even given my limited contact with the important sources, that the Vana have been watered down. However, I also see the importance of the Aesir. I think an absence of either would prove to be detrimental. The problem, I guess, is when one is utterly ignored over the other. I know that I would not be ready for an unmediated experience of the Vana. Perhaps the Aesir are a necessary buffer for those of us who need to function in society. They seem to be less vibrant and chaotic but more immediatly pragmatic. Mind you, these are my newbie ramblings :-)

[Talkingfox]

I also see the importance of the Aesir. I think an absence of either would prove to be detrimental. The problem, I guess, is when one is utterly ignored over the other. I know that I would not be ready for an unmediated experience of the Vana. Perhaps the Aesir are a necessary buffer for those of us who need to function in society. They seem to be less vibrant and chaotic but more immediatly pragmatic. Mind you, these are my newbie ramblings :-)
Not rambling at all. I think that is a rather astute kenning on your part. The Aesir are indeed more about civilization and societal functioning (IMO anyways:laugh:)

That's probably why I'm more drawn to the Vana in general. There are a few of the older forms who made the transition (Thor and Tyr for example) but not without some (!!!) watering down of the form.

Speaking of Thor...there is an ancient Saami form that is virtually identical. Their icons of him have flints built into the heads so the worshipper can make sparks (lightening) with it. I find the lightening Gods from polar and subpolar regions very interesting. Lightning storms are far more rare at these latitudes than farther south.
Lightning becomes a symbol of fertilization of the earth rather than one of destruction.

[Nuhad418]

Speaking of Thor...there is an ancient Saami form that is virtually identical. Their icons of him have flints built into the heads so the worshipper can make sparks (lightening) with it. I find the lightening Gods from polar and subpolar regions very interesting. Lightning storms are far more rare at these latitudes than farther south.
Lightning becomes a symbol of fertilization of the earth rather than one of destruction.

See, I, coming from a view fairly grouned in analytical psychology, cannot help but to find connections between the various Norse gods and similar deities in other traditions; a practice that followers of asatru frown upon. Walking into work today it was something like -25 (-30 with the wind) and I was thinking of Skadi, then I was thinking well she is specifically a Scandinavian goddess (giant) so can "she" really be present in this place and at this time? The only way to answer, at leat intellectually, is by stating that Skadi is the Scandinavian image of the universal experience of snow, ice, harsh weather and the lone reaches of the tundra. But asatru says Skadi is Skadi. Well if I was Skadi why the hell would I want to come to Ottawa!?

[Talkingfox]

See, I, coming from a view fairly grouned in analytical psychology, cannot help but to find connections between the various Norse gods and similar deities in other traditions; a practice that followers of asatru frown upon. Skadi is the Scandinavian image of the universal experience of snow, ice, harsh weather and the lone reaches of the tundra. But asatru says Skadi is Skadi. Well if I was Skadi why the hell would I want to come to Ottawa!?

Probably because you were thinking on her...;)

Actually Skadi is more about the mountains than tundra. Consider the union of Skadi and Njord as being synonymous with a fjord. Oh and let's not forget athlete and huntress as well.

As far as the asatru frowning on global thinking...depends on the asatru. I've known many who have a more rounded world view.
But rigidity abounds all over the place, does it not? I put those kind o' folks on my politely ignore list....

[Nuhad418]

Probably because you were thinking on her...;)

Actually Skadi is more about the mountains than tundra. Consider the union of Skadi and Njord as being synonymous with a fjord. Oh and let's not forget athlete and huntress as well.

As far as the asatru frowning on global thinking...depends on the asatru. I've known many who have a more rounded world view.
But rigidity abounds all over the place, does it not? I put those kind o' folks on my politely ignore list....
Ah yes, mountains...forgot about that *insert retard smiley here*. Well its good to know that there are varying degrees of thought in asatru; I assumed there would be but was not sure.

[Talkingfox]

I've also experienced some of that rigidity in person....must be why I don't consider myself Asatru......

[Kuroyagi]

To me the Vanir are some remnants. They are "elf" folk. they could crush your heart with a benevolent smile or shed tears when listening to a poem or an old song that reminds them of home.

But they are too wise to be all out brutal or vulgar; they are difficult to understand for humans. Or to make an unromantic scientific approach one could say that they might be an older strata of gods: mainly of the stars fetility and the sea. thats what I get from them.

I think that though the place and the locality and circumstances (like "snow" or "going skiing" or "going hunting" for Skaadi) is important its also important what folk you are- maybe if youre germanic yourself its easier to convince you of an affiliation to them. The occult/esoteric take on it is always that "all wisdom is available too all" (thats why it sometimes becomes so fluffy and unconvincing, especilly when its then mixed with x-tian concepts like pietas or caritas).

[Talkingfox]

T

The occult/esoteric take on it is always that "all wisdom is available too all" (thats why it sometimes becomes so fluffy and unconvincing, especilly when its then mixed with x-tian concepts like pietas or caritas).


Hear hear

[Kuroyagi]

Dont you think so? (please note that I did not say: all wisdom isnt available to all.)

Vanir are also travellers (whereby this word has all the wrong connotations in English: like: trader, or bum. ;)). see, that may also be the prob: I just thought of traveller and magician and then consequently of: "Hermes" who is completely unlike the high elven Vanir in my view. correspondences are very useful and necessary, as are translations of words- yet they never can substitute the "original" fully, so to speak...(with all its connotations and implications.)...if one goes to the trouble of actually learning the language one dives into its true meanings.

[Nuhad418]

To me the Vanir are some remnants. They are "elf" folk. they could crush your heart with a benevolent smile or shed tears when listening to a poem or an old song that reminds them of home.

But they are too wise to be all out brutal or vulgar; they are difficult to understand for humans. Or to make an unromantic scientific approach one could say that they might be an older strata of gods: mainly of the stars fetility and the sea. thats what I get from them.

I think that though the place and the locality and circumstances (like "snow" or "going skiing" or "going hunting" for Skaadi) is important its also important what folk you are- maybe if youre germanic yourself its easier to convince you of an affiliation to them. The occult/esoteric take on it is always that "all wisdom is available too all" (thats why it sometimes becomes so fluffy and unconvincing, especilly when its then mixed with x-tian concepts like pietas or caritas).

Those are some great points Kuroyagi. I think it is a very important point that they are difficult to understand. Understanding implies reason on some level and that seems more the realm of the Aesir. There is a depth to the Vanir, as Talkingfox has suggested to me, and a slow vibration and perhaps it is that vibration we can intuit but never fully cognise.

[Kuroyagi]

I think it is a very important point that they are difficult to understand. Understanding implies reason on some level and that seems more the realm of the Aesir.
Hey also a good point, Nuhad! In regard to a more "conscious" struggle with reason and knowledge of course Odin comes to mind; nearly philosophical is his insight into his own restrictions and shortcomings and nevertheless hes unrelentless in his shamanic quest. hes ponderous, he doubts always, yet he does whats necessary nonetheless, hes the best leader, the truest king there can be: indeed much more "human" (-ly reletable).

[Ci Celli Ddu]

The Vanir maybe represent a foreign element in Norse mythology. When one compares the names Vanir (Scandinavian gods), Venedoti (maritime tribe in North Wales), Veneti (seafaring Breton tribe) together with the fact that all three are associated with the sea, this opens up the possibility that they are some remnant of the maritime cultures known to have existed on the Atlantic coast of Europe. The Phoenicians, for example, are known to have had regular maritime contact with the British Isles and Scandinavia.

[Nuhad418]

The Vanir maybe represent a foreign element in Norse mythology. When one compares the names Vanir (Scandinavian gods), Venedoti (maritime tribe in North Wales), Veneti (seafaring Breton tribe) together with the fact that all three are associated with the sea, this opens up the possibility that they are some remnant of the maritime cultures known to have existed on the Atlantic coast of Europe. The Phoenicians, for example, are known to have had regular maritime contact with the British Isles and Scandinavia.

My understanding is that the same kind of thing occurred in Irish myth as well with the Fomorians. Its fascinating how, despite the possibility/probability of historically literal existence, these "gods" can still have a very powerful effect in our modern lives.

[Talkingfox]

.if one goes to the trouble of actually learning the language one dives into its true meanings.

I totally agreee with you there...I've been delving into the Sagas with the help of Old Icelandic and Old Norse Dictionaries. Time consumptive, but useful. F'rinstance this little nugget:
One of Freyr's titles is God of the World. The word for "world" does NOT mean the earth or the environment. (If that were what Strurlsson had meant, the Old Norse would have called Freyr _heimsins goð_, not _veraldar goð_!) The word _veröld_ literally translates as man-age or human lifetime. God of everyday life or god of the here and now would be more accurate I've since found that Norse Scholar Ingeborg Nordén had come to the same conclusion. Gee and I thought I had discovered something....:rofl:

[Kuroyagi]

Thanks thats interesting, indeed! To tell you the truth Im quite ignorant of the old language..:o and used this example of "translations" more in the sense of an anology and parallelism for "comparing paradigms and/or Gods of various pantheons"...but of course to apply it to language in the narrow sense is completely valuable.

What you write makes much sense to me, though: So I know that the old Germanic "Wer" (or Verr) means "man" (e.g. an old word is "Wer-geld" (from law): compensation for the life of one man) and ieldo or "o"lde or something may be "time of one life" (and its plural may mean "people")...

[Talkingfox]

T ..but of course to apply it to language in the narrow sense is completely valuable.
...
I'm sorry I missed your meaning there and went all literal...:o a duh moment that hopefully has passed

[Kuroyagi]

LOL haha! Now dont be that humble! Your posts were all very well written and completely precise, anyway. Language is a primal form of magic(k), anyhow. Its the poets and not the linguists that further a language: and most of the poets are conscouious "magicians"!

All of your insights are appreciated, fox! :)

[Talkingfox]

Well thank you very much Kuroyagi. And yes...poetry indeed. I think that's where I'm finding the need to translate the Poetic Eddas word for word if need be on my own...so I don't have to deal with anyone elses interpretation of the idiom or tinkering with the same so it meters to english satisfaction.

[Nuhad418]

One of Freyr's titles is God of the World. The word for "world" does NOT mean the earth or the environment. (If that were what Strurlsson had meant, the Old Norse would have called Freyr _heimsins goð_, not _veraldar goð_!) The word _veröld_ literally translates as man-age or human lifetime. God of everyday life or god of the here and now would be more accurate I've since found that Norse Scholar Ingeborg Nordén had come to the same conclusion. Gee and I thought I had discovered something....:rofl:

Thanks for this TF. This kind of insight helps to more fully define deities such as Freyr for me...most references (modern) I have read thus far do link Freyr to the environment. Of course the environment is an (the?) essential commponent to the human lifetime but in your post Freyr is much closer and personal (in a grand way I suppose) than an "earth" god.

[Talkingfox]

Also Consider that Freyr, as King of the Ljusalf, is one of those "Between World" inhabitants as well


Hey should we move this discussion to the Heathenism forum?

[Nuhad418]

Make it so! :abduction:

[Dragon]

Done. :thumbsup:


~D~

[Talkingfox]

Thank you Dragon.

[Talkingfox]

I'm, as you so deftly described it nuhad, a bit 'demented' about Frejr at the moment.

The concept of Frejr himself goes beyond an abstraction of 'being' and implies direct physical kinship. To add the rune Ing (Ing/Yng being another name for Frejr)
to the end of any name creates "son of" in Anglo-Saxon and Fresian. Another title, Fro, means brother in Norsk. This could explain the wide dispersal of Frejr worship. Rather than some numinous being, a kinsman? To my knowledge Frejr is the ONLY god of the teutonic language based peoples who's worship spans the entirety of that language base.

There are some theories about that link Frejr with the cults of Adonis, Attis, Ba’al, and Tammuz, most probably by way of Dacia, thus following the spread of agriculture northward.

I dunno about all that, but I do know that there have been stone carvings and votive statues found as far north as Sweden that date to the early bronze age.



The whole thing persisted way late in the scheme of things too. Adam of Bremen wrote descriptions of Swedish Frejr temples in full swing as late as 1080. There are also some other texts from Iceland looking askance at the Swedes for the same practices from roughly the same time period.
Of course the Swedish kings claimed direct lineage and to be a direct descendant of a god would've been preferred over sinning, flawed, scum of the earth....:laugh:

[Nuhad418]

I'm, as you so deftly described it nuhad, a bit 'demented' about Frejr at the moment.

The concept of Frejr himself goes beyond an abstraction of 'being' and implies direct physical kinship. To add the rune Ing (Ing/Yng being another name for Frejr)
to the end of any name creates "son of" in Anglo-Saxon and Fresian.

FROM THE RAMBLING MIND OF NUHAD

For those who may not know the term "demented" in my vocabulary is a good thing :-)

I, for example, am demented by the aforementioned rune. Hmm, funny life this. :-)

I think I've made a little headway on the top of this thread. Actually it was quite self-evident except to me (to the point where I've seen it written but my brain failed to recognise it). During times of conflict or war a whole village suffers. If the men are out making war noise then the duties they may have fulfilled are either stopped for a period of time or they are taken over by others (I'm not implying some sexist statement...I don't know historically the full role women played in heathen countries). So the entire emphasis of the culture within the village is altered. Obviously crops and livestock still needed to be tended, but it becomes more difficult. In those times the little things escape one's attention. One may not have time to think of the spouse or children like they once did. One does not have the time to watch the crops grow in a way only a farmer can truly understand. In my case I was walking downtown and I heard a small bird beside me. I stopped and could hear at least three of four different tones in his/her song. If I were in Lebanon or the evil people from nearby Hull attacked Ottawa I would not have been in a position to hear that song...I may not have even noticed the bird at all.

I think the Vanir are not so much softies but that they take a certain mind frame to comprehend and to get to that mind frame your really need to focus on nothing elese but them. It's hard to do that when someone is trying to steal your cows and/or women ( :laugh: ). So, there may be a compensation happening here where the overly warlike Aesir make the Vanir look overly "fertile" when both sides are actually far more complex.

[Talkingfox]

). So, there may be a compensation happening here where the overly warlike Aesir make the Vanir look overly "fertile" when both sides are actually far more complex.


Isn't that often the case in dealing with deity forms though?
That the concept of each has nuances that are not readily apparent without an in depth and subjective experience in addition to the academic?

This post DID make me laugh until I hurt this morning though (not from content, just from timing) as it came on the tail of a dream of Freja that was about as subtle as bagpipes in a studio apartment. :laugh:

[Nuhad418]

Isn't that often the case in dealing with deity forms though?
That the concept of each has nuances that are not readily apparent without an in depth and subjective experience in addition to the academic?

This post DID make me laugh until I hurt this morning though (not from content, just from timing) as it came on the tail of a dream of Freja that was about as subtle as bagpipes in a studio apartment. :laugh:

Oh no...I just got "Our Fathers' Godsaga: Retold for the Young" as a gift and there is a lovely picture of Freya in there...now, thanks to you, she will be forever sporting a large set of bagpipes. You suck. :no: :rofl:

I think there is an essential need for cultivation of subjective or intuitive when dealing with deity forms...something lost on those who only study the myths, language or culture. Then again it is just as bad to talk to the gods all the time yet never bother to discover their contextual roots. Meh.

[Talkingfox]

Then again it is just as bad to talk to the gods all the time yet never bother to discover their contextual roots. Meh.

Running the risk of the purely fantastic or dealing with echos of one's own "wants" in fancy dress?

[Nuhad418]

Running the risk of the purely fantastic or dealing with echos of one's own "wants" in fancy dress?

What risk? *adjusts drinking horn on belt to make room for his big axe*

[Talkingfox]

I've recently had a full on "DOH" on one of the main differences between the Aseir and the Vanir.

With the Vanir their abilities seem to be inherent...with the Aesir, acquired.

Notice that Freja has no need of decapitating giants, hanging from trees or plucking out eyes to have the same 'sight' abilities as Odin.

[Nuhad418]

I've recently had a full on "DOH" on one of the main differences between the Aseir and the Vanir.

With the Vanir their abilities seem to be inherent...with the Aesir, acquired.

Notice that Freja has no need of decapitating giants, hanging from trees or plucking out eyes to have the same 'sight' abilities as Odin.

That point is very evident if we simplify them to the "nature" vs. "society" or perhaps more individualistically "instinct" vs. "intellect". The feeling I get with the Vanir is perhaps they are even deeper in the sense that their adilities are not so much inherent than they are the abilities...if that makes sense. In other words, the Aesir seem more refined and defined whereas the Vanir are more primal and amorphous.

[Talkingfox]

That point is very evident if we simplify them to the "nature" vs. "society" or perhaps more individualistically "instinct" vs. "intellect". The feeling I get with the Vanir is perhaps they are even deeper in the sense that their adilities are not so much inherent than they are the abilities...if that makes sense. In other words, the Aesir seem more refined and defined whereas the Vanir are more primal and amorphous.



I don't know if 'refined' is an adjective that I would ever use to describe the Aesir. Nor amorphous for the Vana types. Just very different.

In personal practice I've found that the Vana are indeed deeper and are much broader in scope. The sense of 'here and now' seems to encompass now as an expanded view of all possible nows...if I'm making any sense at all. And yeah...the statement that they ARE the abilities makes perfect sense to me.

I find the very 'defined' nature of most of the Aesir to be a big roadblock in my workings . But then again I have a tendency to get slightly nauseated by the whole hero cycle thing. A pet peeve I'm afraid....

[Nuhad418]

I don't know if 'refined' is an adjective that I would ever use to describe the Aesir. Nor amorphous for the Vana types. Just very different.



Yeah, I had trouble with that statement even as I was writing it. I meant
"3. Precise to a fine degree." not cultivated. Odin is refined (described with precision) in comparison to the descriptions of Njord for example. Thor is more precisely defined than even Freyr. One could say that that is just due to the literature available or, as I would say, the Vanir, or what they represent is far less precise and more difficult for humans to comprehend.