The more one understands the sense of magic...

[Kuroyagi]

...the more senseless magic becomes- its senselessness (or call it un-practicality or meaninglessness or un-usability [excuse my Germainc substantivizations]) seems to be open-ended: its like an arrow shot against an eternity of increased meaninglessness that can be filled more and more effectively and easily by any meaning one wants it to be filled with. This is also its great temptation of possible failure and a permanently available stagnation or a welcome possibility for a sojourn.

The more senseless a thing is the more it comprehends within it- and the more it is able to influence.

My quest hasnt ended yet. How about yours?

[Kain]

Interesting approach Kuroyagi. I like to term what you call meaninglessness or senselessness non-attribution personally. This is bcause I feel something that lacks meaning due to a lack of attributes is not necessarilly devoid of meaning under any set of circumstances. It is meaningless because one's surrounding has meaning, and quite often attains a meaning when our perceptional landmarks relocate themselves to it's "meaningless" surroundings and see it in it's own and intended nature. I think this is deeply related to the "Infinite Void" paradox, i.e. the ability of the nature of the Supreme to present itself in it's most rarefied state as a complete emptiness/void that at the same time can be termed more full/substantial than anything Below it.

Kain

[Kuroyagi]

Hello Kain, thanks for suggesting another word (non-attribution)- I will experiment with it and see if I can make myself better understood, yet Im not sure that its what I meant.

Actually all those terms dont describe it sufficiently for me, its really very hard expressing myself in this departement you know...

But I called it meaninglessness or non-practicality cause my starting point was my own life (naturally). I somehow had always felt attracted to the opposite of what my environment (my teachers acquaintances friends- society) considered as practical: basically things you can make money with, or being able to repair something or in the sciences eg natural sciences or technical stuff...those things are considered important and for a good reason: they all more or less sublimated strategies to keep one alive yet life itself is "senseless"...or has this meta-sense this higher sense that philosophy would term Non-sense ;), but that simply merely contains all sense within it. From one standpoint all is meaningless or equally meaningful anyway- but inside of the system "life furthering" there is the hierarchy, just as you said. I set out to look deeper into the (in my view) mystery of the Useless so to speak (or as you say it: as whats considered as useless)...in the sciences I thereby came first to humanities then philosophy then to art, poetry...there I couldnt use normal logic anymore...(then I arrived at magic via a regress into logic: cause what controlls poetry, I asked: the only logical answer- or at least an important one- is passion and emotion! (its very obvious that this is an insufficient answer though)-anyway, still doing that logical regress one can see that here the path bi-furcates: one goes back to stoic philosophy (controll/suppression of emotion) the other to magic (and to advertisement and psychology and to various other things..).

But before that regress there, "higher above", I again had encountered a "non-logic" (a logic of a more comprehensive order). These terms are also often described as nothingness. Its not about dualities though...

Kain since you seem very firm in those occult terms: do you or anyone know of a writing etc that describes some of the stuff you wrote? This would give me much hope cause it would possibly equip me with better words...as it is right now I use poetry, too...but I would like to use linear logic to its fullest too...I have experienced very much more and somehow cant fully express it, I have been in very "senseless spheres" so to speak...I somehow have to retrace my steps that I took via literary and artistic exploration to even fully realize and unearth those things again and to make them applicable and more useable...(even the logical steps like the exploration of the sciences I mentioned above I did purposefully and consciously though I didnt realize the full systematism behind it. (maybe thats why many occultists speak of "being guided" by ones higher self: I myself am truely torn in this point: I have a very great reluctance to use such terms, the danger of taking things for granted is too great, especially with the term of (undying) soul.)

[Kain]

Hello Kain, thanks for suggesting another word (non-attribution)- I will experiment with it and see if I can make myself better understood, yet Im not sure that its what I meant.

Actually all those terms dont describe it sufficiently for me, its really very hard expressing myself in this departement you know...

But I called it meaninglessness or non-practicality cause my starting point was my own life (naturally). I somehow had always felt attracted to the opposite of what my environment (my teachers acquaintances friends- society) considered as practical: basically things you can make money with, or being able to repair something or in the sciences eg natural sciences or technical stuff...those things are considered important and for a good reason: they all more or less sublimated strategies to keep one alive yet life itself is "senseless"...or has this meta-sense this higher sense that philosophy would term Non-sense ;), but that simply merely contains all sense within it. From one standpoint all is meaningless or equally meaningful anyway- but inside of the system "life furthering" there is the hierarchy, just as you said. I set out to look deeper into the (in my view) mystery of the Useless so to speak (or as you say it: as whats considered as useless)...in the sciences I thereby came first to humanities then philosophy then to art, poetry...there I couldnt use normal logic anymore...(then I arrived at magic via a regress into logic: cause what controlls poetry, I asked: the only logical answer- or at least an important one- is passion and emotion! (its very obvious that this is an insufficient answer though)-anyway, still doing that logical regress one can see that here the path bi-furcates: one goes back to stoic philosophy (controll/suppression of emotion) the other to magic (and to advertisement and psychology and to various other things..).

But before that regress there, "higher above", I again had encountered a "non-logic" (a logic of a more comprehensive order). These terms are also often described as nothingness. Its not about dualities though...Your further description only strengthens my feelings concerning non-attribution, although that's just how I view it. I'm pretty sure we're referring to the same thing/phenomenon however, and it's not that surprising we encounter communicational difficulties as this is possibly (if not certainly) the biggest and most profound communicational problem (by nature) we are ever likely to face. In fact, I feel that when it is properly termed in a quantified and logical version, there will be nothing left to accomplish.

Now, I think you described the situation particularly well here:those things are considered important and for a good reason: they all more or less sublimated strategies to keep one alive yet life itself is "senseless"...or has this meta-sense this higher sense that philosophy would term Non-sense ;), but that simply merely contains all sense within it. From one standpoint all is meaningless or equally meaningful anyway- but inside of the system "life furthering" there is the hierarchy, just as you said. I set out to look deeper into the (in my view) mystery of the Useless so to speak (or as you say it: as whats considered as useless)...This situation inded is not Duality per se (as you pointed out later in your response), however we are clearly viewing an "incompatibility" of sorts between these two modes/outsets of viewing reality. Due to this fact, I will take the liberty to say that we are facing a higher duality of sorts, one whose poles cannot be simultaneously visible due to their magnitude. So from the outset of the meaningful hierarchy, the other pole looks as non-sense and non-meaning (or devoid of any meaning and thus "Void" I may say), while from the outset of the "Void" everything loses it's meaning and meaningful attribution. Also, it seems to merely contain all meaning and attribution within itself as you said above. These are all very powerful praralells with an exceptionally important phenomenon, namely the interraction between the "Void" (or de-void, of meaning and attribution) and what constitutes it's possitive (formed, and thus attributed and pertaining hierarchy) manifestation. The interesting aspect that is always termed in such cases (which I happen to agree myself) is that, going deep enough into that which is attributeless (Void)and abandoning hierarchical attribution (Form, one may say), the Void attains a simultaneously possitive quality to it that cannot easily be classified or defined, since we are working with and viewing a co-ordinate of a higher stratum of reality, if we can call it thus. It signifies the peculiar relation between zero and absolute, and how in a non-quantified and non-attributed space the two can co-exist in the same essential substance. These are all very powerful phenomena of the said construct, and most cosmological systems/models have portrayed this in deep detail, because this is the actual hub of power any system aspires to successfully harness and utilize. Bridging this "gap", understanding the relationship between the formed (attributable)and the formless (attributless), and building a viable connection between the two where both poles can finally reconcile can be easily termed one of the highest (if not the highest) aim of so-called "High-Magick".
Kain since you seem very firm in those occult terms: do you or anyone know of a writing etc that describes some of the stuff you wrote? This would give me much hope cause it would possibly equip me with better words...as it is right now I use poetry, too...but I would like to use linear logic to its fullest too...I have experienced very much more and somehow cant fully express it, I have been in very "senseless spheres" so to speak...I somehow have to retrace my steps that I took via literary and artistic exploration to even fully realize and unearth those things again and to make them applicable and more useable...(even the logical steps like the exploration of the sciences I mentioned above I did purposefully and consciously though I didnt realize the full systematism behind it. (maybe thats why many occultists speak of "being guided" by ones higher self: I myself am truely torn in this point: I have a very great reluctance to use such terms, the danger of taking things for granted is too great, especially with the term of (undying) soul.)That's how it starts for everyone really, I guess...poetry, artistic expression. For me it was through drawing, and still is to a large extent as this is a huge phenomenon to successfully understand and articulate to it's fullest. However there is a lot of information around that can be gleaned on this subject. In Qaballah, it is the relation of Ein, Ein Soph, Ein Soph Aur and Kether (and the rest of the Tree of course), i.e. the relation between manifestation and the "negative veil", which has 3 simultaneous states/aspects. In Taoism, it is the relationship of Wu Chi (the Void) and Tai Chi (the Point, which is it's manifestation and undergoes further differentiation). The Tao te Ching would be appropriate I think concerning reading material on Taoism. Also, in Hinduism, Parama Shiva and Shakti, Shiva denoting the changeless and unattributed Above and Shakti the formulated and attributed side of existance/reality, whose emition from Shiva directed Below causes the manifestation of all. The "quantification" of things in form happens due to the power of Maya, so that the formed (and limited) aqcuire meaning and existance (as we perceive it) is possible. Also, in Hermeticism, the relationship between the One Mind and One Thing (see the Corpus Hermeticum)...and many other parallels, as these are off the top of my head. As you understand, this is a huge issue you've just brought up Kuroyagi...very important stuff.

Kain

[league]

I Agree with Kain....Kuroyagi very interesting approach

[Kuroyagi]

Thanks, the League,...and Kain: I also think that we mean the same here, my inability to express myself was meant towards a more general public (I took you in my circle so to speak).

I think that- even though I have described my running through different systems like sciences and art- that with a certain mindset all of them can be used for transcendence, also the most down to earth sciences. And yeah let us not forget art: I perceive it to be as valuable a path as magic, too- it has the same open-ended orientation in my view.

And thanks about reminding me of the various systems....

QBL: The Tree sprouts from earth to heaven with such fulgurant speed that it creates ripples on its top. To use an anology: like in aerodynamics the swirls of air that will form by the shape of the wing and its movement, worlds of Nothing will be created. Only that in this case these swirls will also create the wing itself. Now, what happens is that those Nothings will manifest the Tree from above "anew". Its the paradox of creation from below and manifestation from above...ok, problem "QBL" solved, next! ;)

No, its just an inspiration Ive had right now, dont know if its valuable (is it worth something?). Anyway, same inspiration, or intuition also tells me that its not worth for me in this life to look deeper down this way.

On the other hand: I have done some research into the Tao and I will look deeper into that. Also I have neglected the Hindu and Indian systems and this will be corrected in due time.


Bridging this "gap", understanding the relationship between the formed (attributable)and the formless (attributless), and building a viable connection between the two where both poles can finally reconcile can be easily termed one of the highest (if not the highest) aim of so-called "High-Magick".
I see it similarly, whereby (if I may say so), I'm a bit of a magical humanist; and think that many on this board are more magical trechnicians or natural scientists; one neednt make this differentiation, but dont you think its somehow practical-both have their +&- I mean the humanistic approach is endlessly more complicated but also more subtle, while the naturalistic, more technical approach is more generalizing, more based on systems exactness- both are valuable and one cant be mistaken by being inclined more to the one or other (if to both than its even better), the only mistake one can make is to look down on the other (like some scientists who dont "understand or believe in the worth of art", yet they- from the artists point of view- look like fools cause while they say such things they create most beautiful art with technical means!

[Kain]

I think that- even though I have described my running through different systems like sciences and art- that with a certain mindset all of them can be used for transcendence, also the most down to earth sciences. And yeah let us not forget art: I perceive it to be as valuable a path as magic, too- it has the same open-ended orientation in my view.Certainly. Art and Magick share a lot in common and in fact we could go so far as to say that they approach the exact same co-ordinate in different ways. The best aspects of art are not different from magick in my view, and same goes for the best aspects of magick as well so the two very much complement each other in many ways...
QBL: The Tree sprouts from earth to heaven with such fulgurant speed that it creates ripples on its top. To use an anology: like in aerodynamics the swirls of air that will form by the shape of the wing and its movement, worlds of Nothing will be created. Only that in this case these swirls will also create the wing itself. Now, what happens is that those Nothings will manifest the Tree from above "anew". Its the paradox of creation from below and manifestation from above...ok, problem "QBL" solved, next! ;)

No, its just an inspiration Ive had right now, dont know if its valuable (is it worth something?). Anyway, same inspiration, or intuition also tells me that its not worth for me in this life to look deeper down this way.Well, the Tree emerges from Nothing to begin with, as most models of Reality portray concerning manifestation and world creation, however this may have something to say about the process of Kundalini raising and related work, a process found in Tantra which could be termed to function in very similar terms, in fact achieving a re-definition of manifested reality in this very fashion of ascending in extreme force, reaching "Nothing" and conjuring Something, and then travelling all the way down again reforming the world, only in a more powerful version.
I see it similarly, whereby (if I may say so), I'm a bit of a magical humanist; and think that many on this board are more magical trechnicians or natural scientists; one neednt make this differentiation, but dont you think its somehow practical-both have their +&- I mean the humanistic approach is endlessly more complicated but also more subtle, while the naturalistic, more technical approach is more generalizing, more based on systems exactness- both are valuable and one cant be mistaken by being inclined more to the one or other (if to both than its even better), the only mistake one can make is to look down on the other (like some scientists who dont "understand or believe in the worth of art", yet they- from the artists point of view- look like fools cause while they say such things they create most beautiful art with technical means!Well, that makes a lot of sense as we certainly cannot say that there is one "correct way up", especially towards a place on the map that is so multifaceted. Diversity is good, and in fact is the only way to go in this field, at least in my view. And yes, I can very well see the two approaches you speak of here, and it is indeed an error to have the one "abolish" the other's ways for they are essentially travelling in the same boat, so to speak.

Kain

[fr.novumorganum]

This is a very interesting topic.

Kant had a idea of art being purposeless purposiveness, which resonates with this discussion

kant (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:7vnoa0DjN1cJ:https://www.myu.umn.edu/metadot/index.pl%3Fid%3D482915%26isa%3DVersion%26op%3Ddown load+purposeless+purposiveness&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=13)

[Kain]

Kant had a idea of art being purposeless purposiveness, which resonates with this discussion

kant (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:7vnoa0DjN1cJ:https://www.myu.umn.edu/metadot/index.pl%3Fid%3D482915%26isa%3DVersion%26op%3Ddown load+purposeless+purposiveness&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=13)Indeed, very good corelation fr.novumorganum! One could also define it as a "naked" or unprojected purposiveness, unaffiliated with any manifest purpose yet retaining only it's essential nature and inherent creative passion.

Kain

[Kuroyagi]

Thanks frater (you really do like the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason, dont you :)))! This is useful: a reminder that I should read Kant not only from secondary sources...some of those propedeutic notes in that link seem very congruent with what I wrote.
Course some of his aesthetic theory isnt "up to date" anymore (the sentence about art and nature) and I have a different take on aspects of "will" and the imporatance of hedonism and inertia (also about his "copernican" reversion as a whole: his "internal" direction)- but generally I dont allow myself a definite decision about him if I havent read him in original that is. The glimpses I got make him seem like a true Demiurge: a man with unbelievable vision and clarity of intellect to such a height I myself could only aspire to...;)

Kant the great systematic- such brilliance of reason! Ah..I love to revisit philosophy, first she was a bit fed up with me cause I had stolen her ideas and then abandoned her, but now Im a well received visitor, and more so every time anew.

[m1thr0s]

I'm having a little trouble finding the angle on this whole discussion and I think it's because we are dealing in a rhetoric I feel unsure of all around. I think I started out in my hermetic journey full of purpose and that purpose drove me quite hard and caused me to achieve some pretty amazing things...yet it was a constant battle for me privately and there was a great sense of bitter disappointment following every breakthrough it seemed I was able to accomplish.

As I have matured a bit I have become less attached to the goals I once held to be more urgent than Life itself. This may simply be due to having become wisened to the futility of constantly fighting with shadows, I am not entirely sure. I don't feel I have actually abandoned any of this original purpose, but rather I think I have adopted a more long-range outlook that doesn't really give a shit about life and death so much anymore since I see myself in it for the long-haul regardless.

In a sense, this has the general effect of being a detached kind of purpose. The purpose itself is still there, I just no longer belabor the details of it much. For me, this more "wisened" state of mind seems to be more productive on an emotional level at least and does not appear to have hurt my analytical prowess either, so I tend to think it was a good trade, however it came about. I have sort of come to an art-for-art's sake state of mind, yet I wonder sometimes if it would have been possible to arrive there if I had not passed through the other first. Because we are really talking about confidence here I think, and the difference between ambition and real confidence.

Am I even thinking in the same proximity as what you all are discussing? I am not quite sure. The lingo has me a little baffled.

m1thr0s

[Kain]

In a sense, this has the general effect of being a detached kind of purpose. The purpose itself is still there, I just no longer belabor the details of it much. For me, this more "wisened" state of mind seems to be more productive on an emotional level at least and does not appear to have hurt my analytical prowess either, so I tend to think it was a good trade, however it came about. I have sort of come to an art-for-art's sake state of mind, yet I wonder sometimes if it would have been possible to arrive there if I had not passed through the other first. Because we are really talking about confidence here I think, and the difference between ambition and real confidence.

Am I even thinking in the same proximity as what you all are discussing? I am not quite sure. The lingo has me a little baffled.Hmm...very interesting way to look at it :tsmile: . I think you're on the point actually, although you speak from a point of view where this co-ordinate is a lot more anatomically interwoven with the rest of one's system, making it pretty much inseparable and obvious in one's mental processes. I very much understand this personally, although it's one of those things that needs to be experienced to be seen, being "hidden" to perception and intellection otherwise. It's a question of ambition vs confidence indeed and you are quite right m1thr0s...because confidence, in order to come about, requires a full knowledge of the properties pertaining to the co-ordinate itself, having gone beyond analysis and working under a fused/integrated basis with it, which is what it's all about really...it being the "sense of magic" one all the more aligns with as the title of the thread put it. Because confidence presupposes shared consciousness of both polar co-ordinates, both Here and There, while ambition aspires...

Kain

[fr.novumorganum]

in another sense, I think we've all just been saying 'lust of result is failure" in a fancy way:laugh:

K: Yes, I do have a thing for the enlightenment, but many of the published accounts make it all seem so cut and dry---its roots lie in natural philosophy, and natural philosophy is from a foundation of magick...all those lodges passing heretical knowledge around....

[Kuroyagi]

Yes thats good m1thr0s. I have actually never run through the classical magical training as you probably have but recognize myself in what you wrote anyhow. In magical terms this could mean that first you "realize" (know) your true will (your prupose in this life etc.) and then you really sweat blood and tears in order to progress. But (and Im speaking via my experiences in the art world now): but then you will learn not to give a damn for criticism, criticism of your art, of your lifes work, yet at the same time integrate good points from that critique. You will learn to dance and not merely walk. See, as a beginner (after having found your path) you are deadly insulted by any negative statement brought forth against your art (or your magic/work)...this is natural because different to eg a normal businessman we put our lives into it- it IS our lives: and actually it is even more. Thats why theres so much suffering and sometimes very dark hours of insecurity on the way...but after some time one learns to see oneself and ones own flaws in the coldest and most removed and impersonal and objective of ways, yet at the same time will not lose ones warm dedication ones creativity, motivation and enthusiasm that gives fire and life to ones art. This "stretch" is very very hard to accomplish and I havent done so myself completely, but you know, Im getting better at it.
Good point! :)

"Purposeless Purpose-iveness", also reminds one of Taoism (Zhuangzi), dont you think?

in another sense, I think we've all just been saying 'lust of result is failure" in a fancy way
And yeah frater, thats a rather concise and laconic way of putting it, but surely true.

Oh and dont worry- I myself like it the Enlightenment too- though I sometimes critizise it like all else for experiemntations sake. I am not with those one- dimensional thinkers who believe that the ideal of the educated ppl in the 18th cen. exclusively was to turn themselves into passionless automata or something ;). No. All we write and generalize about by throwing around -isms and epoch-desigantions must have an internal and external practical component, we must re-actualize it for ourselves and then it becomes eternally rich in context.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I'm having a little trouble finding the angle on this whole discussion and I think it's because we are dealing in a rhetoric I feel unsure of all around. I think I started out in my hermetic journey full of purpose and that purpose drove me quite hard and caused me to achieve some pretty amazing things...yet it was a constant battle for me privately and there was a great sense of bitter disappointment following every breakthrough it seemed I was able to accomplish.

As I have matured a bit I have become less attached to the goals I once held to be more urgent than Life itself. This may simply be due to having become wisened to the futility of constantly fighting with shadows, I am not entirely sure. I don't feel I have actually abandoned any of this original purpose, but rather I think I have adopted a more long-range outlook that doesn't really give a shit about life and death so much anymore since I see myself in it for the long-haul regardless.

In a sense, this has the general effect of being a detached kind of purpose. The purpose itself is still there, I just no longer belabor the details of it much. For me, this more "wisened" state of mind seems to be more productive on an emotional level at least and does not appear to have hurt my analytical prowess either, so I tend to think it was a good trade, however it came about. I have sort of come to an art-for-art's sake state of mind, yet I wonder sometimes if it would have been possible to arrive there if I had not passed through the other first. Because we are really talking about confidence here I think, and the difference between ambition and real confidence.

Am I even thinking in the same proximity as what you all are discussing? I am not quite sure. The lingo has me a little baffled.

m1thr0s

I can identify with this. The thing that motivated me was my fantasy and my ego. I later subjugated both of these, part of growing up I suppose (or alternatively, following something to its logical conclusion). I no longer care for many things that once seemed important, but all the same I (in computer terms) had to upload my fantasy and my ego again because without them "I" have nothing, and life can be pointless enough without oneself becoming pointless. I think that's when I really changed direction towards the Left. Art for Art's sake pretty much some's up what I do. Something is better than Nothing.