Reclaiming Ancient Symbols: The Swastika

[Ratatosk]

There are lots of symbols to choose from, and lots that resonate very deeply with the human psyche. If you don't think so you haven't been watching these forums very closely. m1thr0s has been doing a bang-up job of bringing some of these symbols together in a syncretic fashion. (Thanks, m1thr0s, you are the bomb!)

In my opinion, however, there is one symbol that has held more positive meaning for more people worldwide than any other - and it has been totally destroyed by one group in one relatively short historic span. The swastika.

It has been (and still is) used by Buddhists, Jain, Hindu, pre-Hindu Brahmanic sects, and Native American tribes. It has been used in the past as well by Greeks, Romans, Celts, Teutons, and probably some others I have missed somewhere. Whether you call it St. Brigid's Cross, Hakenkreuz, Fylfot, Gamma Cross, Gammadion or Swastika, it is time that we reclaim the positive aspects and put to rest the desecration of the symbol by the Nazi party.

Until we can remove the automatic association of hatred and racism with the swastika, we cannot hope to remove the assumptions of hatred and racism with anything related to Teutonic practice, Heathen, Asatru or otherwise. And, unfortunately, until that association is removed, those with racist agendas will continue to try to associate themselves with those practices.

Here (http://www.reclaimtheswastika.com/) are (http://www.northvegr.org/fylfot/index.php) a few (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/178/story_17871.html) places (http://www.oxfordstudent.com/tt2004wk0/Features/sacred_swastika) that (http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/articles/naziabuseofhinduism.html) are (http://www.niagara.com/%7Efreedom/accniag/haken.htm) trying (http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html) (or at least getting the word out). But what else can we do?

Ideas?

[silentjohn]

http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/001/073/5-44.gif

[m1thr0s]

The Swastika may have originated with the Bon, but I have seen conflicting information, some suggesting that it may even be much older. I have posted the Bon version elsewhere on these forums but here it is again...It may be that a clear understanding of its origins is where we have to begin. It needs to be understood why the Nazis wanted this symbol, since we know that Hitler was drawn to the occult and was always looking to steal anything he could of a magickal nature... (the Spear of Destiny comes to mind immediately for instance)...

http://abrahadabra.com/images/yungdrung.gif

I'll do some digging on this...I had some pretty good links someplace on the Swastika and its origins...

cool links by the way Ratatosk...those are some very interesting sites.

edit: one of the things we know about the Swastika is that is/was almost universally a Solar symbol...it's expressing the Sun for cripe's sake...not a bunch of goose-stepping zombies. It also doesn't matter which way the rotation goes...we hear a lot of bullshit about that (one way is good, the other bad etc)... It's improper use has nothing to do with its rotation since we find both rotations historically and none of them have anything to do with anti-semiticism on any level. Hitler stole this symbol because it is very powerful and because his own creative originality went out the window with his lost nut... you gotta be careful where you park these things...:eek:

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

It's improper use has nothing to do with its rotation since we find both rotations historically and none of them have anything to do with anti-semiticism on any level. Hitler stole this symbol because it is very powerful and because his own creative originality went out the window with his lost nut... you gotta be careful where you park these things...:eek:


Too true. I realized that one culture I failed to mention, BTW, is the Hebrew, where the swastika used to be in use alongside the Star of David in the temple. Talk about a group that should be adamant about reclaiming a symbol... :mad:

That is absolutely beautiful, m1thr0s, I hadn't seen it before (did I miss something somewhere? - AARGH! Now I'm gonna hafta re-read all the threads!!!!:o_O:)

[m1thr0s]

Hebrew? Seriously? That's just weird...talk about karmic kick-back...yikes...

Not to doubt you but I would love to see any links you have on that. I have never heard that before...there may be a connection of some kind if Hitler knew about that...his parents were Jews (or so I have been told)...somehow I doubt they were thrilled to see their son going into politics...

edit: Actually...it looks like that isn't true...just another one of those myths that get perpetrated for no apparent reason. His parents were peasant stock and very poor but not Jewish...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

The Swastika may have originated with the Bon, but I have seen conflicting information, some suggesting that it may even be much older.


I think it's probably older being as it crops up all over American Native stuff and the migrations predated Bon.
IMO it may be one of those kind of parallel development things, not unlike the spiral.

I DO love that particular image m1thr0s!

[m1thr0s]

I DO love that particular image m1thr0s!it has a name by the way...called a "yung-drung"...I call it a "young-drunk" after I've had a few beers...hehe...

very old...predates Buddhism by several thousand years apparently.

m1thr0s

[Ratatosk]

Hebrew? Seriously? That's just weird...talk about karmic kick-back...yikes...

Not to doubt you but I would love to see any links you have on that. I have never heard that before...there may be a connection of some kind if Hitler knew about that...his parents were Jews (or so I have been told)...somehow I doubt they were thrilled to see their son going into politics...

edit: Actually...it looks like that isn't true...just another one of those myths that get perpetrated for no apparent reason. His parents were peasant stock and very poor but not Jewish...

m1thr0s

Well, It looks like I jumped too quick too - the reference I saw to the "swastika and Star of David side-by-side in the Synagogue" was actually referring to the art-deco swastika floor tiles in a New York Synagogue. Here's the skinny from answers.com:


In November 1998 the Rome, New York (http://www.answers.com/topic/rome-new-york) Sentinel newspaper (http://www.rny.com/default.html) reported that swastika tiles were removed from the Gansevoort Elementary School where they had survived on a school floor for 84 years. The newspaper's editorial (http://www.rny.com/archive/opinion/1998/november/1105lostchancetoeducate.html)[21] (http://www.answers.com/topic/swastika#wp-_note-20) responded: "School officials lost a chance to enlighten the public. A recommendation earlier this year by a committee of Gansevoort staff and parents to "leave the floor as is" and install a display about the history of the swastika was ignored. Instead, at the risk of being viewed by a small, uninformed segment of the community as being politically incorrect (http://www.answers.com/topic/political-correctness), they knuckled under to pressure rather than educate. How unfortunate!"
The same Sentinal editorial also notes that similar tiles were left untouched at a Jewish (http://www.answers.com/topic/judaism) synagogue (http://www.answers.com/topic/synagogue), Temple Beth El, in nearby Utica, New York (http://www.answers.com/topic/utica-new-york) "because the connotation to the Jewish congregation is not that of the Third Reich."Now that failure on the part of the school to use the opportunity to educate people (and I couldn't make that more ironic if I tried:o_O:) is just the sort of thing I find discouraging. Of course, the actions of the members of Temple Beth El, on the other hand, I find greatly encouraging.

The use of the swastika seems to have been mostly decorative or as a non-religious "good luck" charm. From Wikipedia:
Abrahamic religions

The swastika was not widely utilized by followers of the Abrahamic religions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion). Where it does exist, it is not always portrayed as an explicitly religious symbol, and is often purely decorative or, at most, a symbol of good luck. One example of scattered use is the floor of the synagogue at Ein Gedi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Gedi), built during the Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) occupation of Judea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea), which was decorated with a swastika.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#_note-15)
----snip----
If you check out the whole article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) you will find lots of interesting uses of the swastika.

[MythMath]

Just do it...

Use the symbol where appropriate...

And if people freak out,
you've got a great opportunity to (re)educate...

People, intuitively, want to be able to
incorporate this image back into their lives...

Give them the option, and a reason, to reclaim it...

If some remain repulsed, so be it...


MM
________________

Nous Sommes Du Soleil

[MythMath]

A couple of months ago some friends and I were having a similar
discussion regarding the near-global historic use of the swastika motif...

The wikisearched fact that it was a symbol of good fortune...

The usurpation by the Nazis and the swastika's chances of survival...
_____________________________

It is certainly a strong visual entity, a glyph of straight
lines that still connotes spinning and circular motion...

Even though such rotary motion is implied, however
to my eye, there's nothing feminine about the form...

Like many images, it seems more dynamic at an angle...

Being asymmetrical,
it may be thought of as being the twin to its mirror image...

It is a starform; most often representing our friend Sol...
_______________

Not quite sure how this ancient symbol evolved through its many applications...

Considering all of its sharp angles and edges, it's a bit curious that
every culture that adopted it, attributed positive/'good' energy to it...

{Including, arguably, even the Nazis}
________________

The history of symbol theft and subsequent reappropriation,
is extensive, perhaps universal, and probably unavoidable...

Those despicable Nazis made an impeccable choice...

That symbol fit their 'party' like a patent leather glove...

A glance at the history reveals how fortuitous it was for them...

http://www.oxfordstudent.com/tt2004wk0/Features/sacred_swastika

The graphic treatment of the naziswastika was characteristically effective...

So effective that it has effectively cut off the entire population
from using the symbol for their own purposes...pretty big mojo...
_____________________________

It's up to us to counter that...

As artists, as spiritual humans, we should use it...

Use it as an opportunity to share the story...

Or meander it in the background for some subliminal seduction... ;)
_________________________

Reclaiming, and using, this sacred symbol could be
viewed as a freedom of speach issue, couldn't it...?

If its (non-nazi) use is not intended to offend...


MythMath

[m1thr0s]

I haven't put all the pieces together yet but I am guessing that a significant part of its success had to do with Germany being a bankrupt nation and people feeling very trapped and very desperate on a day-to-day basis. It was wall-to-wall bread lines in Germany at that time and they were being financially screwed by just about everybody. Hitler ignited a national pride that bordered on the frantic even from the outset. The swastika represents the force of the sun itself which in a dark and desperate place is a powerful thing to hold onto. My guess is that given a less extreme environmental conditions, the symbol would not have had the kind of mass-appeal that it did have.

Unfortunately, people were in no mood to be properly educated as to its real and actual meaning. They wanted the hype...they wanted the fairy-tale projection of a people so inherently superior that the world itself could not possibly keep them down. That was the climate of the times and people forget (or just don't know) that turning Germany into a gigantic ghetto was not such a smart move on the part of any of its players. You push Americans into that same corner and Nazi Germany will look like a godamm Xmas party.

So that's just my off-the-cuff analysis. I still need to go over a few facts and figures to venture any further. I don't, for instance, know for sure what the swastika meant to Hitler himself..what he thought it was and what his sources might have been...

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

A bit of Norse jewelry from the 5th cent. Pretty piece found in a bog cache with a raft of other stuff. Seems to have been an offering to Frey.

[m1thr0s]

sweet. very nice piece.

this brings something to mind I was thinking about before. Perhaps to reclaim the thing you have to invest more into embellishing it. Think of this in purely aesthetic psychology terms if you can. Hitler's big mistake with the symbol itself was that he stripped it bare and made it as utilitarian as he possibly could...so what happened...in the end, it ate him and his whole company along with him. To reclaim the thing you may need to make certain "offerings" to it in the way of infusing life into it through color and depth and careful adornments. The yung-drung may be our guide to this...look how beautifully adorned it is. You'd hardly know it was the same symbol, but it is.

The sun is not a lifeless flesh-eating machine. If you invoke that kind of sun, you get what you deserve...just a side-thought on all of this but it might be the most direct (magickal) answer to the actual question which has been raised. We can talk until we're blue in the face but the damage has been done on a visual level moreso than on a verbal one. The solution may be to fight back visually as well...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

That is similar to what I was suggesting,
by using it the background as a decorative
element, abstractly meandering along...

Let it work on the populace subconsciously...
______________________

It's kinda funny reading m1thr0s' advice
to doll it up with color and adornments...

Eschewing the utilitarian essence of a graphic...?

After few days staring at the FoL, he's gone all frou-frou... :p

{Said the Bearded Princess}

MM

[m1thr0s]

Eschewing the utilitarian essence of a graphic...?a time and a place for everything, but you also have to bear in mind that nearly all of the graphics I attend to are tantric in nature. They are therefore intended to be "adorned" with focused action itself. But even these, given time and the right tools eventually become beautiful inlayed works of art more suitable to powerful mirror-working. so much of what you see me doing is just drafts hyphenating the technical side of the issue. gotta start somewhere and accuracy is sometimes the best place to begin.

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Yeah, I agree with that...

I was just razzing...

[Ratatosk]

Great points, everyone. I did see a suggestion on one or other of the sites I linked in the first post that we use the swastika where appropriate, get it out in the public eye more. Beyond the educational opportunities, the increased exposure in situations not related to hatred and racism will, with repeated exposure, remove the "shock value" of the symbol - perhaps so much (and this is the part I wish I could live to see in this lifetime) that it no longer has any power for racists and they are forced to find a new symbol. The smiley, perhaps? :)

[m1thr0s]

The other thing I wanted to emphasize is color. Hitler made prominent use of Red & Black with a little white breaking things up a bit. There is nothing secretive in this color scheme...it is all about violence and war. Black & Red also happen to be two of the prevailing color schemes for yin & yang in Chinese iconography. When placed together, black would typically represent the yin and red the yang elements. Curiously if you match black & yellow, yellow would become the yin and black becomes the yang. So in this color scheme we are looking at a very mechanistic Yin solar symbol which would tend to be indicative of machinery...hence "the machinery of war" is the intrinsic subliminal message being conveyed by the whole Nazi symbolism. Nothing inspirational...nothing to go to war about...just war for war's sake essentially. Again I think this mainly worked due to the climate it was appealing to. People didn't care anymore about the ramifications...it sounded a hell of a lot better than starving to death at the time.

I see that the German letter for S appears to be the same as it is in English, which means that the Swastika can be viewed as simply a matter of two interlocking S's. I know that the SA was really Hitler's first politically assertive move which then sometime later became merged into the newly organized SS. What I don't know is exactly when the flag came about. If it was timed with the establishing of the SS, we may be giving Hitler way more artistic credit than he deserves, since it may simply have been a convenient way to assert the SS itself... This might also account for the slant and direction of the swastika, which clearly hyphenates the letter S...

here's a clippet indicating Hitler's own account of the newly devised Nazi Flag in 1920 (it doesn't answer the SS question)

In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic." (pg. 496-497)So in other words, he really doesn't know his shit from his oatmeal regarding the symbol itself or else he simply has no natural ability to say so in written form...

edit: I see that the SS was actually a branch of the SA which did in fact come first but was not later replaced by the SS as I had somehow supposed. The earliest date I have seen on the SS is 1923 which remained quite small until 1929 when Himmler was appointed its head...Hitler may have at least been aware of the "Sig" rune, a doubled form of which was worn by SS officers. I don't know what the so-called Sig-Rune is supposed to signify in the runes themselves... looks like it's proper name is Sowilo(?) and signifies the Sun / Good Fortune etc...

this seems to be a reasonably good rune site, though I don't really know runes at all: http://www.futhark.com/

m1thr0s

[Talkingfox]

I see that the German letter for S appears to be the same as it is in English, which means that the Swastika can be viewed as simply a matter of two interlocking S's. I know that the SA was really Hitler's first politically assertive move which then sometime later became merged into the newly organized SS. What I don't know is exactly when the flag came about. If it was timed with the establishing of the SS, we may be giving Hitler way more artistic credit than he deserves, since it may simply have been a convenient way to assert the SS itself... This might also account for the slant and direction of the swastika, which clearly hyphenates the letter S...



edit: I see that the SS was actually a branch of the SA which did in fact come first but was not later replaced by the SS as I had somehow supposed. The earliest date I have seen on the SS is 1923 which remained quite small until 1929 when Himmler was appointed its head...Hitler may have at least been aware of the "Sig" rune, a doubled form of which was worn by SS officers. I don't know what the so-called Sig-Rune is supposed to signify in the runes themselves...

m1thr0s

Sig, or sowelo in Anglo-Saxon, is a solar rune pure and simple. It denotes elemental fire, victory, strength, and all that stuff. It is ALWAYS drawn at a sharp angle like a lightening bolt, indicating pure power brought to 'earth ' as it were. And yeah...they knew.
More specifically, Himmler knew. He was by far the more educated in occult matters and designed most of the sigils, the meat of the public rituals and was the guiding force in the party's interest in the occult in general.

From a runic standpoint the swastika is more reminiscent of a doubled Yeoh (Yew) which is a protective rune, but more like the protection of weapons rather than of shielding. IMO, even though the swastika far predates runic, that the double Yeoh HAD to have been noticed and was used as a sigil to soften people up for first strike warfare.

[m1thr0s]

It would be kind of fun to do a whole gallery showing just around the Swastika and all its variations...it would be sure to attract attention and could serve as a public re-education forum...

might be hard to find a gallery with the balls to let you do it though...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Let's do it here...

[Ci Celli Ddu]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/162/347151142_ab6a5e7edf_m.jpg

This is the lauburu, symbol of the Basques and one you can see in use everywhere in the Basque Country. Lau means "four" and Buru means "head" (four heads). It has something in common with the Triskel of the Celts, in that both symbols are found in use in Western Europe in the Stone Age, and that the Basques, Welsh and Irish have recently through DNA tests been proven to be descendents of the indigenous population of Stone Age Western Europe. Bearing in mind that recent marine archaeology has discovered the existence of bona fide civilisations all over the Old World (Europe and Asia), predating Egypt and Sumer, that were surprisingly advanced, but which fell victim to rising sea levels, coupled with the antiquity of such symbols in regions as far apart as Spain and China, one can only guess at what intercultural and international connections existed in those pre-deluvian times (one should remember that a boat can go a long way very quickly). HP Lovecraft must have a big grin on his face.

[m1thr0s]

Wiki has a reasonably good article on the History of the Swastika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika)

But it's older than 3000 years. We know that the Bon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6n) religion (primarily centralized in Tibet) is very very old. Of the three main phases of Bonism, it is the second, or "Yungdrung" Bonism period that especially interests us here as this is where the yungdrung symbol originates. The Bon themselves claim that this period began about 18,000 years ago and claim to have documentation to prove it. If their estimates are off by even as much as 12,000 years, that still makes the yungdrung symbol at least 6000 years old...

But that's only one avenue of research...this symbol has been traced to neolithic eurasia where it is currently thought to have originated but if it actually originated in ancient Tibet, it could have easily migrated to the lowlands of neolithic eurasia...

This symbol is very important from a symbologists point of view, in part due to its incredible simplicity. It is a very basic variation on a circle and cross-hairs (or cross of light) dividing the circle into 4 equal parts...broken just enough to emphasize rotation. Symbologically, it represents consciousness itself and denotes a point at which human beings are beginning to look at consciousness objectively. It is a prime example of consciousness observing itself and distinguishing itself from its environment. Because of this, I am completely skeptical of any off-the-wall 3000 year estimate of its age. I wouldn't be surprised to find future evidence of this symbol stretching as far back as Lemuria, if there ever actually was a Lemuria...

stealing it back from the godamm Nazi's then, is a very good idea...this is a vital piece of human heritage...

:mconfused: http://abrahadabra.com/images/goostepping.gif :mlaugh:

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Where's the 3000 year estimate come from then? That's pretty much like the day before yesterday!

[m1thr0s]

academia has its limitations...and I also don't think the academic community has committed very hard to this particular task thus far...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Well I suppose sadly in Today's World any scientific investigation has to be of some practical use to its sponsors in order to receive any funding.

[MythMath]

Here are some graphically interesting variations on the theme:
http://maitreya.co.kr/eng/maitreya/images/infinity4.gif http://maitreya.co.kr/eng/maitreya/images/infinity3.gif
from: http://maitreya.co.kr/eng/maitreya/maitreyarael6.htm


http://maitreya.co.kr/eng/maitreya/images/infinity8.jpg

I'm Rael...!
peter gabriel

[Sibylle]

I don't remember where I got this, but I like the positive associations...

[Radiant Star]

I would never has associated kittens with swastikas before now.

I love that Sybille. Saved it.

[Dragon]

Here's a couple of cool links for symbol research

http://www.symbols.net/

http://www.symbols.com/

~D~

[Radiant Star]

Brilliant Dragon!

I love symbols and this will keep me playing happily for hours :tlaugh:

[Ci Celli Ddu]

academia has its limitations...and I also don't think the academic community has committed very hard to this particular task thus far...

m1thr0s

Academia doesnt like to draw comparisons between one object and another, even if they're obviously identical. The funniest example of this is the panda. It looks like just like a bear, it moves just like a bear, it's anatomically just like a bear, but it's extra finger, diet and colouring make it a raccoon. Look, we'll take a DNA test. Oh shit, it's a bear. :laugh:

[Amur]

After the destruction of the 3rd world, the native americans where told to migrate through routes resembling that of a swastika. They were told by the messengers of Creator to migrate to their end-positions. The interesting part was that they were told not to stay at the 'easy' places like that of the jungle.

In many places the swastika represents the Sun God, or atleast used in relation to the sun.

This is quite interesting use of the swastika. From a rose crucian website.
http://www.ruusuristi.net/media/image_01.jpg

[Sibylle]

Amur, do you have the link to the site that came from?

[m1thr0s]

here it is...

http://www.ruusuristi.net/

oh cool...their images folder is accessable...

http://www.ruusuristi.net/images/

here's the only other copy I am seeing:

http://www.ruusuristi.net/images/vpm_merkki.jpg

m1thr0s

[Sibylle]

Wow, thanks. I like the images. Wish I could read the site.

[Ratatosk]

Sorry I've been away for so long. Awww gee, guys! You really are bringing out the info and some really great links! I feel so special! :o

It seems that we've got lots of info available, that much is obvious, so why is our society so blind to the truth and beauty of this?

Um, wait, these are the people that are busy watching "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire - Survival Island Series" and re-runs of "CSI- Special Will and Grace Unit." (Or whatever that crap they watch after COPS is) :p - Ok, question answered.


So, now, if we can get the info about the history and value of the swastika into episodes of "Law & Disorder - Special Vatican Unit" and "Friends in the City" we can change public opinion with, say, 2 episodes, and 4 re-runs of each with lots of ads for anti-depressants, erectile dysfunction remedies and the latest iGizmo.

What do you think?

[m1thr0s]

lol...yeah...the revolution had better be televised afterall I think...

m1thr0s

[frater luciferi]

when i was a child i used to like to draw swastikas, i drew them instinctively. Until one day i was "caught" by a school teacher who of course did nothing to enlighten me to the original meaning of the symbol. she tiraded me with a long lecture on the evils of that symbol and of how it was synonomous with anti-semitism and evil itself. it was not more then a good 23 years later that i in my research came into the true understanding of the symbol. It is a key graphic representation to me of the four winds of hermes and of the four corners. i have a trileske (three legged swastika) on my arm.

and mithros the swastika was used alot in german occult circles before the formation of the nazi party. the order of thule used it as their banner, not suprisingly a lot of the founding members of the SA were members of the order of thule before forming the nazi party.a shame how such dark mages can hex a symbol with a maligned notion of its intent

[m1thr0s]

and mithros the swastika was used alot in german occult circles before the formation of the nazi party. the order of thule used it as their banner, not suprisingly a lot of the founding members of the SA were members of the order of thule before forming the nazi party.a shame how such dark mages can hex a symbol with a maligned notion of its intent.thanks fr. luciferi...that's important to know. some of this is actually helping me to get some of my facts straight about the whole nazi thing in general. it seems reasonable to assume they knew of it all right and also knew of it as a solar symbol bestowing of good fortune etc. I suspect they had misconceptions as to its actual origins or might have been more hesitant to use anything whose "bloodline" was not as arian as they imagined it to be.

I see you use an interesting variation of this symbol on your own website:

http://heylelshalem.sitesled.com/amerikan%20bohemian/american%20bohemian/1507.png

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

Do you guys know ManWoman? See here (http://www.manwoman.net/).
-Ibisis

[m1thr0s]

curious...his last biographical entry was from 2003 and his book is apparently unavailable.
interesting character though...wonder what he's up to right now.

m1thr0s

[Anibis]

Last I heard, he picked up an accquaintance of mine Hitchhiking... I could do some digging. I'll get back to you.
-Ibisis

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/ancientegyptianswastika-1.jpg

this is a button? found by an archeologist in egypt. It is understood to have been in the possession of pre-civilized egyptians back when they were still nomadic.

[m1thr0s]

well that's interesting fr. luciferi...predynastic egypt...that's got to be at least 6000 years old then? I always get a little confused when we start talking nomadic tribes in such and such an area...does this mean indigenous to egypt but nomadic in lifestyle or might it mean nomadic from god-knows-where that just happened to be in egypt for the grazing at that time? I suppose there's not much a button can tell us in itself though...

that particular button looks rather east-indian to me for instance...would it be possible that a nomadic tribe in egypt 6000+ years ago actually originated in India?

m1thr0s

[frater luciferi]

quite possible that the arians of india(which had dark skin) could of at some point came to egypt or vice versa. although the "blood" to me is'nt as important as the actual implications of the symbol existing in the pre-infancy of one of the most prolific pagan cultures to ever have existed.

[Anibis]

Scoop on ManWoman. Book is $25 plus shipping and handling. You can get it from him/her. I have the address to send the cheque.
-Ibisis

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/EinGedi_02.jpg

this is a detail of a tile pattern of a jewish synagog in ein gedi. its located in a oasis by the dead sea. The temple itself was built in the third century.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/162/347151142_ab6a5e7edf_m.jpg

Lauburu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauburu)


Historians and authorities compete to apply allegorical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory) meaning to the ancient symbol–some say it signifies the "four heads or regions" (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Laurak_Bat&action=edit) of the Basque Country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Country_%28historical_territory%29) ; the lauburu does not appear in any of the seven coats-of-arms that have been combined in the arms of the Basque Country: Higher and Lower Navarre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navarre), Guipuzcoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guipuzcoa), Biscay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay), Alava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alava), Labourd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labourd), Soule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soule) ; The Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people) intellectual Imanol Mujica liked to say that the heads signify spirit, life, consciousness, and form – but it is generally used as a symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolism) of prosperity. It was found in old stelas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stela). After the time of the Antonines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonines), M. Camille Julián (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=M._Camille_Juli%C3%A1n&action=edit)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauburu#_note-Camille) finds no specimen of swastikas, round nor straight, in the Basque area until modern times. Paracelsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus)'s Archidoxis Magicae (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Archidoxis_Magicae&action=edit) features a symbol[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauburu#_note-Paracelsus) similar to the lauburu that is to be drawn to heal animals. M. Colas (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=M._Colas&action=edit) considers that the lauburu is not related to the swastika but comes from Paracelsus and marks the tombs of healers of animals and healers of souls, i.e., priests. Around the end of the 16th century, the round swastika appears abundantly as a Basque decorative element, in wooden chests or tombs, perhaps as another form of the cross[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauburu#_note-Conclusiones). Straight swastikas are not found until the 19th century. Many Basque homes and shops display the symbol over the doorway as a sort of talisman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amulet). In modern times it has been associated with the swastika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika). Sabino Arana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabino_Arana) interpreted it as a solar symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_symbol), supporting his theory of a Basque solar cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Solar_cult&action=edit) based on wrong etymologies, in the first number of Euzkadi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euzkadi). The lauburu has been featured on flags and emblems of various Basque political organisations including Eusko Abertzale Ekintza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusko_Abertzale_Ekintza).
The symbol in its positive form (right-facing) can symbolise life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life), and in its negative form (left-facing) death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death)[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]. This is the reason why many Basque tombstones display left-facing lauburus. It is also used as an alternative to the Christian cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross) in the death notices (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Death_notice&action=edit) of Basque nationalists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_nationalist). The use of the lauburu as a cultural icon fell into some disuse under the Spanish nationalist government of Franco, who repressed many elements of Basque culture. For that reason, there is some dispute as to which direction the lauburu faces represents creation (life and good fortune) or destruction (death and misfortune). Some say that what produces the distinctive round heads is the wake created by the rotation of the cross, representing the elements and universe of energy. When rotating clockwise, the wake trails in the opposite direction with the heads facing left, and vice versa.

[Amur]

So what does the Swastika mean to you?

It's interesting that it's a world-wide symbol, found in all the corners of the world. Can't remember who it was that said that it was the symbol of the Creator. Many tie it to the Solar/Sun. Perhaps the Sun of Eternal Perfection(life itself).

[Okazaki Castle]

We know that the Bon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6n) religion (primarily centralized in Tibet) is very very old. Of the three main phases of Bonism, it is the second, or "Yungdrung" Bonism period that especially interests us here as this is where the yungdrung symbol originates. The Bon themselves claim that this period began about 18,000 years ago and claim to have documentation to prove it.


Ah, League of Shadows, I love it when people mention them. They do exist you see. How do they connect to The Naga and immortality stuff one wonders...


This symbol is very important from a symbologists point of view, in part due to its incredible simplicity. It is a very basic variation on a circle and cross-hairs (or cross of light) dividing the circle into 4 equal parts...broken just enough to emphasize rotation. Symbologically, it represents consciousness itself and denotes a point at which human beings are beginning to look at consciousness objectively. It is a prime example of consciousness observing itself and distinguishing itself from its environment. Because of this, I am completely skeptical of any off-the-wall 3000 year estimate of its age. I wouldn't be surprised to find future evidence of this symbol stretching as far back as Lemuria, if there ever actually was a Lemuria...

stealing it back from the godamm Nazi's then, is a very good idea...

Excellent, I like stealing. This ought to do it for I find that conceptual dominion is usually a matter of size and harmonic similarity, ie looking like it and being bigger:

http://www.lunarplanner.com/Images/Erection%202160%20BC%20WEB%202.0.gif

More info on that (http://www.lunarplanner.com/HolyCross.html#Construction)

It's fun being bigger...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Okazaki Castle]

Oh and if I might be cheeky a while, for Rothschild Cartel did finance the holocaust and the Nazis, just as the Swiss sold the Nazis the gas for their chambers:

OI, Rothschild Cartel, our Star of David is considerably, considerably bigger than yours. And also, we've got it targetted better too I might add... :p

Oazaki.

[Little Billy]

Until we can remove the automatic association of hatred and racism with the swastika, we cannot hope to remove the assumptions of hatred and racism with anything related to Teutonic practice, Heathen, Asatru or otherwise.

Ideas?

Wait another 50-100 years.

The swastika is hopelessly tainted. It's gonna be another 2-3 generations at LEAST, before it can be looked out without generating revulsion.

[Okazaki Castle]

Well, not if you do time compression on them... Besides, making Hitler and the Nazis look good is the sort of extreme challenge I find funny. Well, if you don't laugh about it you end up getting all self-righteous and fearful eh? Take the Spartan's attitude when they knew they were all going to die at Thermopylae and the arrows were so think they blocked out the sun: "Oh good. We'll be fighting in the shade today."

Time compression you can do by combining astrological/astronomical 'access gates' with conceptual progressions along the lines of human history. It it's all Mind turning anyway, then to decode that is as simple as recombining mind's concepts in different ways. Unexpected, unusual ways for preference. Makes things change faster and be more exciting, fun and surprising...

Of course, to start with we'd have to criticize Hiteler and the Nazis strongly. But the thing about perspectives, if you want to you can always allow them to reflect back to sender...

The thing about Established Hierarchies and system, they're so damn simplistic and stupid in their representations, it's hard for anybody of even reasonable intelligence to take their antics seriously. Here's an example of them doing 'show and tell' with their big wallclocks:

Reuters Clocks (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-01-12T202126Z_01_N12164371_RTRUKOC_0_US-DOOMSDAY-CLOCK.xml)

Really, with understandings and displays so basic, how can one do anything but take the piss out of them?

Regards,
Oazaki.

[Little Billy]

Well, not if you do time compression on them... Besides, making Hitler and the Nazis look good is the sort of extreme challenge I find funny.

Really, with understandings and displays so basic, how can one do anything but take the piss out of them?



1. Well, yeah. But keep in mind that there are plenty of people still alive that won't be laughing with you. Don't forget the sheer scale of the war, and that it was the defining moment of an entire generation. In addition, try hanging out with Hal Turner's crowd. The funny wears off really fast.

2. That's why "Bob" gave me 6,500,000,000 monkeys to mess with.

[m1thr0s]

I would actually caution against criticizing Hitler and the Nazis "very strongly" as any kind of effective reclamation strategy. I think all this will accomplish is re-empowering them. We have to remember that the real tragedy here is that the Nazi's weren't actually monsters from the astral plane or anything...they were people caught up in a desperate fantasy projection and they are not gone...they are all around us just waiting for the right buttons to be pushed and off they go again. Sorry if that disturbs anybody but that's actually how it is...

So I think you are better off not to beat that horse too severely because you run a very serious risk of just making yourself look kind of stupid actually...as if you really don't understand your shit from your oatmeal about how these kinds of things can happen...and have happened...and are still happening all around us.

The symbol can be reclaimed on its own merits. It's very old and has been around all over the place. I think you have to flood all those media channels with everything it's got, and little by little more people are going to start saying...yeah...you know the Nazi's stole that symbol, don't you? They couldn't even come up with their own symbol! When you get 2nd and 3rd graders correcting each other about this you've as good as won already...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Just what is to be reclaimed here? The swastika is still in use even here in Europe, whether it be the Lauburu of the Basques or fylfots used in design. The Hakenkreuz the Nazis use is distinctive enough not to be confused with others.

[oak]

coincidence? ;)

Germany vows to erase Nazi symbols from across Europe

...
Germany’s programme for its six-month presidency of the EU also revives the idea of criminalising the flaunting of the swastika, which gained momentum after publication of photographs of Prince Harry in Nazi uniform at a fancy dress party.
...

link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2547826,00.html)

[Ci Celli Ddu]

coincidence? ;)

Coincidence with what? The Germans already have a long track record as to banning nazi symbols.

[oak]

Coincidence with what?

well OBVIOUSLY this is solid proof that THEY are listening and taking steps to stop this motion before it's too late! :o_O:

[Ci Celli Ddu]

well OBVIOUSLY this is solid proof that THEY are listening and taking steps to stop this motion before it's too late! :o_O:

Not obvious enough for me, Ive still no idea to what you're refering. Like I said, the Bundesrepublik has quite consistently outlawed the use of Nazi symbols, so it's only natural as the leading power in the EU that they want this ban to cover the whole of the EU, especially considering the embarassment that their political establishment has been caused by the election of Neonazis in various federal German states.

[m1thr0s]

You know, if they want to ban Naziism itself that's just fine. If they try to ban the swastika it's going to take a huge bite out of their ass before it's all said and done. So the reclamation is about the symbol and its rightful lineage. So now Germany wants to sweep it all under the rug? Typical... They have no actual right to ban what they only ever abused, but never actually invented. It isn't theirs to ban and that's the whole point here I think.

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

You know, if they want to ban Naziism itself that's just fine. If they try to ban the swastika it's going to take a huge bite out of their ass before it's all said and done. So the reclamation is about the symbol and its rightful lineage. So now Germany wants to sweep it all under the rug? Typical... They have no actual right to ban what they only ever abused, but never actually invented. It isn't theirs to ban and that's the whole point here I think.


It's ironic. They're banning the symbol but not the Neonazis. Personally I'd be happy to see the Neonazis being sent to special institutions for the terminally stupid.

[m1thr0s]

exactly...and you really have to wonder what the f*ck they are playing at...so what...it's all cool so long as you use a different symbol? what a bunch of *ssholes...

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

I would actually caution against criticizing Hitler and the Nazis "very strongly" as any kind of effective reclamation strategy. I think all this will accomplish is re-empowering them. We have to remember that the real tragedy here is that the Nazi's weren't actually monsters from the astral plane or anything...they were people caught up in a desperate fantasy projection and they are not gone...they are all around us just waiting for the right buttons to be pushed and off they go again. Sorry if that disturbs anybody but that's actually how it is...


Well, for example: the Nazi regime was a brutal and anti-semitic one founded on the unjust persecution of an ethnic minority and the advancement of extreme far-right aims. They were very evil people who convinced otherwise well-intentioned Germans to mass-murder an entire generation, and etc

However, I forgive them. I call that Power of Forgiveness. It's in the Bible and what we, as people who look up to Jesus Christ's shining example, should practice. So I'm sincerely trying to...

Of course, that's simlpy because I've finally discovered the strategic use of forgiveness: it allows you to move up a level in terms of the league you played at regarding who you hold responsible and so want to attack. Another way to view that is: 'Get out of my way! You're not important enough a player in this game for me to concern myself with you.'. Applying this to the Nazi regime, it allows one to target those who were behind that regime, encouraging it, moving it, financing it, profiting from its activities. As a lot of that ammounts to Rothschild Cartel, who are Jewish, it makes the whole thing kinda circular...

Now on a similar parrallel, why would the Japanese perform their sacrifice in a nuclear way? Well, it's the patterns you've got for export... 'Here, trying seeing things from my perspective' sort of thing, along the lines of how this system works... So if you wanted to steal that pattern you'd need a more pertinent and dominant physical bind to do so. That's what the Sarin gas attack by Aum Shinrikyo in the Tokyo subway was for: more intense death process, strong suffering more immediate in humanity's consciousness to what occurred further back in the past, can and does therefore dominate that position/role in mass mind, and so karma targetting, in practice, nowadays. Some people know this, so use it for their ends. As I said earlier, nobody beats the Japanese hierarchies on ruthlessness.

As regards reclaiming the symbol, it has in recent history relative to the emotional force associated with it, been dominated by the Nazi party and still continues to be so. You'd need something which appeals / moves Lower Selves more intently than its Nazi association to reclaim that symbol in practice within the popular psyche. Something like a mass-market luxury ice cream brand would do it though...

Being physical creatures of sensual appetites mindkind is easy to manipulate. So too is womankind, especially if you involve chocolate in the process. For you see, political and historical considerations come a very firm second compared to really good chocolate ice cream. Has to be a high quality expensive brand though, well-advertised. Rich and expensive is essential to ensure the shininess of image of any such product...

So entirely possible. As an example of possible approach / perspective on both Nazism and swatikas.

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Okazaki Castle]

It's ironic. They're banning the symbol but not the Neonazis. Personally I'd be happy to see the Neonazis being sent to special institutions for the terminally stupid.

Yes. Makes you wonder what's going on:


This vow being made by Angela Merkel to unite the European Continent under one flag cannot be ignored, especially when viewed in the light of still secret, but ‘obtainable’, Soviet KGB archive files which present a terrifying portrait of the present German Chancellor as being the daughter of the former German Nazi Leader, Adolf Hitler.

Though said to be born on July 17, 1954 in the former Soviet controlled German Democratic Republic (East Germany), Angela Merkel’s Stasi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi) GDR file (currently still held in the Soviet KGB archives) states that she was instead born on April 20, 1954, the birth date of her ‘true’ father, Adolph Hitler who was born on April 20, 1889.

The means of Angela Merkel’s birth, as detailed in these documents, was based upon the research of the German Doctor Carl Clauberg (http://www.shoah.dk/doctors/clauberg.htm), and though classified as one of the worst Nazi ‘Angel of Death’ doctors, and convicted by the Soviet Courts as being a ‘war criminal’, was nevertheless freed by the Soviets as he was recognized as being the ‘Father’ of artificial insemination.


What's she doing as Germany's Chancellor? My, that's a coincidence!! Ah, what a merry game the politicians' play!

With their leaders behaving in such ways, how are we to hold the more stupid of thier populaces accountable when the presumably more intelligent who control things like who is put in the positions to be made president and then who is chosen or elected for such positions behave in ways like this?

Of course, maybe she's not Adolf Hitler's daughter. Though Sorcha's articles (http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index973.htm) do tend to be annoyingly well-researched to her objectors' usual chagrin...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[m1thr0s]

wow. forgiveness. I hadn't considered that bit actually. I might have to pass on that one personally. Excuses or no excuses people are what they eat...I don't see where forgiveness will change any of that in this case...

but our objective in this immediate context is revitalizing the emblem...not beating the dog that crapped all over it...

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

Well, you don't have to keep them on forgiven... Just file for later once they're out of the way of line-of-sight...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Kuroyagi]

In Japan its used often in a Buddhist context. On road-maps etc. its the icon for "buddhist temple", normally depicted vice versa to the nazi one: like this　卍 ("manji") but also in the other direction. I still have some senkou (incense) from the great temple in Asakusa/Tokyo lying around somewhere that is also wrapped in a paper with the swastika symbol (I'll maybe take a pic later if I find it...). its a very good and powerful symbol but in the West very much overshadowed by its recent use by the nazis...(if pics too big heres the link:http://niimiya.akatsukinishisu.net/blog/archives/2005/11/CA320039.JPG

http://niimiya.akatsukinishisu.net/blog/archives/2005/11/CA320039.JPG

p.s. and yes, both in Germany and Austria it is forbidden by law ("Verbotsgesetz") to use this symbol- this is understandable due to the specific history of those countries, its an imbecile proposition to forbid its use in all of Europe...

[m1thr0s]

wow...nice temple...I'll take two of those please...:yes:

m1thr0s

[Little Billy]

But "Nazi" OMG Freakout!!!

Yeah, well, 150,000,000 dead and a continent and a half in ashes sometimes does that.





Trained monkeys. I mean, really.




http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1151836295/What_We_Are

[frater luciferi]

Yes. Makes you wonder what's going on:



What's she doing as Germany's Chancellor? My, that's a coincidence!! Ah, what a merry game the politicians' play!

With their leaders behaving in such ways, how are we to hold the more stupid of thier populaces accountable when the presumably more intelligent who control things like who is put in the positions to be made president and then who is chosen or elected for such positions behave in ways like this?

Of course, maybe she's not Adolf Hitler's daughter. Though Sorcha's articles (http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index973.htm) do tend to be annoyingly well-researched to her objectors' usual chagrin...

all the best,
Oazaki.

that scares me as much as discovering that the govenor of california is the son of an SS officer.. gives me shivers....

[m1thr0s]

Dear old Dad...


http://abrahadabra.com/images/GustavSchwarzenegger.gif


Gustav Schwarzenegger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Schwarzenegger)

interesting article... (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0814-07.htm)

xst...he's even sporting the mustache...not a good sign. :eek:
kinda makes you feel safe (protected from evil etc) though don't it?...

I'm sure it's all just an inconvenient coincidence though...awkward joo-joo, so to speak...
kinda like Bush's financial embededness with the bin Laden clan... :rolleyes:

m1thr0s

[frater luciferi]

man... i remember reading another article a while back stating that Ahnolds father was a ss officer... an SA officer is a totally different story..they were the "goons" of the nazi party and basically just muscle...no real involvement with the orchestration of the halocaus or close involvement with the higher echelon...damn i can't find that article i read a while back, i wonder if it the biproduct of mr ahnold whitewashing his past so that his fathers former occupation wouldnt get in the way of the jewish vote in california.. hmmm thats a real head scratcher..i know it would not have been the first time that a republican has altered his own history for his benefit..we hardly ever hear about mr george w. idiots felony cocaine conviction from when he was in college..

well this requires some further digging...

[Kuroyagi]

Don't know anything about Arnie's parents or American politics there (only that his mother Aurelia often let her hand slip and that they were quite simple people- his father forbade his muscle training, yet the youngster sneaked off to get to the gym secretly) but I got reminded by this thread to take a pic of that incense with the swastika wrapping from Japan...(w. mouse and Lum key-chain for comparison of size etc.)...

http://la.gg/upl/senkou..jpg

[frater luciferi]

I just a few months ago watched a really good documentary about tibetan buddhism and the rituals involved with the tibetan book of the dead..it was filmed in the same mountains that was tibet? actually and the entire town where they filmed the rituals seemd to be pretty much frozen in time--like it had been for centurys..anyways i saw swastikas everywhere in that flm, on the walls of buildings and even within the actual book of the dead itself...in the traditional double swazi manner that is..

ok well i found it..

//http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3219838328703873592&q=tibetan+book+of+the+dead&total=110&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

Came across this little guy researching some training opportunities in RFID.

This is a Motorola passive RFID tag. Commonly found at Blockbuster imbedded inside the DVD cases etc.

[Naomi]

That's really cool.

[frater luciferi]

im seconding what naomi said, thats probably one of the coolest looking swastikas i've ever seen.

[m1thr0s]

you guys should use your blender more often...lol

m1

[Naomi]

I don't have a blender. I only have a sushi mat and a spatula.

[Talkingfox]

you guys should use your blender more often...lol

m1

Holy shit...It does look like the the innards of my blender. Now I know what to tell ppl when they ask me why I'm watching stuff blend :laugh:

[Catalytic Subterfuge]

A couple more interesting (almost swastika) RFID tags just for kicks.:eek:

[frater luciferi]

i think the main reason i liked that one swastika was each arm looks to have a scythe blade coming out of it...which is a very interesting combination both symbolically and metaphorically..

[frater luciferi]

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/?action=view&current=death.jpg
this is a sigil that i came upon during "meditational" ritual where i explored the aether after studying a grimoire that i had written--the mirror of gnosis. so far i relate it to the angel of the abyss abbadon..but it is in a way an incorporation of both the swastika and the scythe + the usage of the yang A that is to the ying E.

[frater luciferi]

oh and i found another bank that is in the downtown area of where i live that uses a swastika logo..i will have to bribe one of my friends with a digital camera to take a picture of it so i can post it...i've found a few others in the archetecture of some of the buildings as well..ill try to get those as well just for shits and giggles.(been wanting to send a few swastika fotos for man/womans website..that is if hes still updating it at all).

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/l_9106b7f4954bfa8613606cd5360df341.jpg

[m1thr0s]

It's funny you should mention the bank fr. luciferi...I discovered a few days ago that barely 5 blocks from my place is a Credit Union called TwinStar Credit Union! How weird is that? I need to talk to these folks. I believe they may owe me a great deal of money...lol...

Xst...I'd settle for a low-interest loan...

very nice tat...I've always loved the formidable simplicity of that one...

you got your this, your that and your other...pretty much sums the whole thing up.

m1

[Sibylle]

m1thr0s, you definitely need an account there! Hehehe.

[frater luciferi]

It's funny you should mention the bank fr. luciferi...I discovered a few days ago that barely 5 blocks from my place is a Credit Union called TwinStar Credit Union! How weird is that? I need to talk to these folks. I believe they may owe me a great deal of money...lol...

Xst...I'd settle for a low-interest loan...

very nice tat...I've always loved the formidable simplicity of that one...

you got your this, your that and your other...pretty much sums the whole thing up.

m1

i've often found the greatest power can be found in things that are simple..I think that has to do something with syncronicity...but it seems you yourself have just had a very surreal experience with syncronicity yourself

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/stcuswastika-1.jpg

[MythMath]

Fittingly generated by the LSD in the center... :yes:


http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/BankSwastika.jpg

[frater luciferi]

holy fuck! i just had a paradigm shift......

[MythMath]

Daily occurrence around here... :yes: :laugh:

[frater luciferi]

i get them all the time...but I never really get used to them..

[deviadah]

It [the Swastika] has been (and still is) used by Buddhists, Jain, Hindu, pre-Hindu Brahmanic sects, and Native American tribes. It has been used in the past as well by Greeks, Romans, Celts, Teutons, and probably some others I have missed somewhere. Whether you call it St. Brigid's Cross, Hakenkreuz, Fylfot, Gamma Cross, Gammadion or Swastika, it is time that we reclaim the positive aspects and put to rest the desecration of the symbol by the Nazi party.

Until we can remove the automatic association of hatred and racism with the swastika, we cannot hope to remove the assumptions of hatred and racism with anything related to Teutonic practice, Heathen, Asatru or otherwise. And, unfortunately, until that association is removed, those with racist agendas will continue to try to associate themselves with those practices. [bold = mine]

I think this thread is amazing, and I haven't really taken that much part in it (although I've followed it). I quote the initial post, of this thread, above because I think it is both well-written and on point! Also I love all the images throughout!

I am all for reclaiming this symbol and I have had many experiences where people actually are more aware of its positive aspects than I at first suspected (to my own astonishment)! So in time it will become a positive thing again - probably sooner than we think.

Time is a wonderful thing, and nothing suffers more than malevolence and oppression when time is rumbling forth. Love and harmony always prevails, and every time I see this happen it makes the struggle all worth while.

In a 1000 years from now, when looking back at human history, the Nazi Years will be nothing more than a tiny speck!

Perhaps print up T-shirts with the Swastika on the front with the text: The Hindus (or Buddhists etc) were right, and on the back the Swastika with the text: the Nazis were wrong!

:cool:

Btw MythMath nice last image you posted...

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/pic020708_1.jpg


the above is the logo for my favorite chain of coffeeshops...they are the only real competition to starbucks so i frequent them often.. I have found a few other swastikas around the downtown area of where i live and come tommorow i will take some pictures of them as well and post them... their was also a very similar logo like the one above for a really good bar that had a lot of punk rock shows...now it is a metal bar..

[Dragon]

Any cross of any amount of points can be " Swastizied", it's the principle of the motions off the arms.


~D~

[frater luciferi]

my favorite swastika is actually a germanic symbol..i have adopted it myself as a closet nazi hunter lol...but im kinda neurotic lol.. its the eightlegged swastika..from the old order of judges..essentially knights who punished the irredeamers. purely politics but it was a vigilanteism . it was the order velmich.

[Xner]

Fr.L. - Who'd have thunk that the 45 RPM adapter was an esoteric symbol in disguise? I wonder if there was intent on the maker's part...

There's a house in OKC that has a swastika built in to the very brickwork of it. It's an older house, obviously, from a time when the symbol was quite popular in the States. If I make my way up to that neighborhood, I'll snap a photo of it.

[frater luciferi]

since i've focused my aspie brain on looking for the symbol i have been seeing it everywhere...so yeah i have lots more that i have found in my walks around the stomping grounds of my town..

[wiz-oz]

Note: the Symbol below contains the grid of the ancient Bush Barrow Lozenge:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/stcuswastika-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/Wiz-OZ/Bush_barrow_NZ.jpg

The Bush barrow Lozenge appears to be an ancient calendar & reckoning system, see http://www.celticnz.co.nz/BBLOZ/BBLOZWEB1.htm

This also connects to the other thread of the Lo-Shu magic square grid & Swastika.

frater luciferi, what company does this symbol below to?

Cheers from OZ

[frater luciferi]

the logo is for the spokane teachers credit union... a damned bank!

[m1thr0s]

that means they contracted with some artsy drug-addict in seattle...

no way in hell spokane is gonna come up with that by themselves...

just ain't possible... :no:

although...come to think of it, spokane is known for its nazi leanings...which makes it even weirder that the public school system would op for that symbol!

strange.

m1

[frater luciferi]

i mean it kinda sucks here in spokane because we always kinda feel like we're in the shadow of seattle...there has been a real serious economic and cultural revival here..but I always love going to the coffeeshops--a lot of the hipster types mimic what they think a "Seattle" hipster might be..a lot of the artists over on this side of the state are a bit more "nihilistic" but i think maybe spokane will evolve into a semi-decent copy of bellingham..

there is a nazi presence in the inland NW for sure..but thats mainly in the cour de lane area over in north idaho...which ironically is a very wealthy and liberal community that invests a lot of money in supporting the arts...

i think that to some extent that the usage is a understanding of the original meaning? and not the NS interpritation of it....

[Naomi]

logos are professionally designed to stand out from the sea of corporate logos if the artist knows what they are doing - something that is instantly recognizable by the pattern of negative space. Even text logos can be symbols, the negative space around the Arial Microsoft type font for instance is well known, the brain reads the space of a word more than the individual letters. It doesn't necessarily mean they even had a clue what the swastika template meant...

[Xner]

NS presence in the Northwest is more than just in the Coeur D'Alene area. There was a huge deal in the media about AryanFest (I believe that's the name), which took place in the Portland area, in the Gorge, a few years ago. There are also several NSBM bands in Western Oregon. Of course, it's arguable just how much of a real presence there is, vs. an internet-inspired spotting of individuals here and there. Although the proof is in the papers...recall the brutal murder of an African American at the hands of a skinhead gang back in the early 90s in Portland. The Northwest is definitely a place of extreme polar opposites.

Fr.L., I'm sure you're correct about the original meaning being the intent regarding the corporate logos. NS folks know that their use of the symbol spins in the opposite direction. I'd wager that the use of the symbol in the Spokane Teachers Credit Union is a reclaiming of the symbol. Remember how popular the swastika was in the US prior to the second world war.

[Anibis]

There was a town called 'Swastika' in Ontario before WWII. They changed it's name, I dunno what to. Also there was a Berlin, Ontario, that became Kitchener/Waterloo area. We were down there last year, and the second language was definitely German... largest Octoberfest outside of actual Germany...
-A-

[frater luciferi]

the apt complex i live in is called the "Dresden" lol....its in a wierd spot of town but I get a really decent studio really close to the heart of downtown..it was built waay before the firebombing of the city it was named after but i still to this day find it ironic..

[MythMath]

In the spirit of reclaiming the swastika, would an attempt to have
it be accepted 'commercially' within such a design be successful...?

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/GEMINIDESIGNrevisedMMcopy.jpg

I do like that 'hidden' 2 in the center; very appropriate for the
Gemini, but I could always wimp out with something like this:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/GEMINIDESIGNrevisedMMoffset.jpg

[m1thr0s]

well it's a nice design MM but I don't think you'd find 1/1000 people that would be making any kind of conscious connection to the swastika with this...

I kind of have to strain my brain to see it and I'm usually pretty good at this kind of thing...it's a catchy design concept though I think, generally...

reminds me of a drunken mushroom or something...I've seen amanitas strike that exact pose for instance...

m1

[frater luciferi]

screw with it till it strikes your subconcious! alll the best memes toy with the subconcious

[deviadah]

Pics I took of the Glyptoteket (http://www.glyptoteket.dk/) in Copenhagen, Denmark earlier today!

Hard to see with my camera phone but there is a swastika on each side of the window:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/DSC00201.jpg

Also swastika on the gates:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/DSC00200.jpg

And here's more:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/DSC00199.jpg

:cool:

[Templa]

m1thr0s: Himmler even had thousands of men looking for the Holy Grail.


I'd like to point out that the Swastika is of course going to be tabu, as well as pointing out things that could be improved in the democratic system, for a long long time.

If you still want to use the symbol of fire/transcenscion, I suggest you use the Sauwastika instead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauwastika

[deviadah]

I suggest you use the Sauwastika instead...

Check out: Origins of the Swastika... (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=1618)

:cool:

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/SUNP0038.jpg

[frater luciferi]

the above is a very central detail on the front of the douglas building in portland.the swastika sits right about the entrance to the building..i think this builiding was constructed in the forties? im gonna be about downtown spokane today and i will make it a priority to capture the numerous swastikas that i have seen over the last month or so wandering around dowtown.

[Dragon]

Nice tie in with the 12 houses.

[m1thr0s]

If you still want to use the symbol of fire/transcenscion, I suggest you use the Sauwastika instead.that actually is something that should be challenged at Wiki...the suggestion is playing to a common misconception...that one rotation = good while the opposite rotation = bad. If you really dig into it you'll find both rotations stretching back just as far as the other in time...no such distinction was made until after Hitler's time. It was just some limp-wristed attempt by a handful of apologists to appease both the enlightened and the ignorant at the same time, but the solution is fallacious...it isn't real...there is no such thing as a *bad* rotation per se...

appreciate your comments just the same!

m1thr0s

[frater luciferi]

meh... i say this all the time..their are two rotations of the swastika..one is essentialy yin and the other yang..creative and destructive motions...no real good or evil in either...

[Naomi]

I don't know I really get tired of selling out to idiots more than I need to. I am willing to go just far enough so that they at least don't burn me at the stake, but discussing it reasonably on here in an open and neutral arena is far more productive than catering to ignorance by using the "other direction" just for politics.

I like the truth when it can be afforded publically, and always privately....

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/pic022808_1.jpg

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/pic022708_1.jpg

[frater luciferi]

the two swazis are details from a outer decorative tile pattern on the side of my favorite little hole in the wall diner downtown spokane..i also found a swazi patterned wallpaper pattern at a local coffee shop..will get a foto of that soon enough as i am meeting a friend for coffee tonite :)

[Naomi]

Those are cool, thanks for sharing....

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/swastikagamelgye6.jpg

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/image_large-1.jpg

[MythMath]

Sieg Heil and hold the starch... :p

_____________

Where and what year was that photo taken...?

Both of those trucks and the buildings look old,
but the bike looks fairly contemporary...

[frater luciferi]

pre wwII ireland.. about say 1940 something?

[m1thr0s]

that's one funky little van...I don't suppose they make a hotwheels version... :laugh:

m1

[MythMath]

Yeah, I had Matchbox cars when I was a wee lad and
there were a couple weird, old British vehicles in
the line up that reminded me of that van (lorrie?)...

This was a few years before those mod,
newfangled HotWheels hit the market... :laugh:

[Luke Saint]

LOL. Just imagine that shit in Toys R Us. "It's just a swastika, it's like a thunderbolt and it can shoot flames out the side that are so hot you'll shit your pants!" Yeah, that's good sloganisms. Damn Nazis, and the cross pisses me off too. That's a damn fine symbol and now it's Jesus' recliner, WTF? But this is what happens when you have a world where the majority of the citizens are ignorant and headstrong. No explaining nothing.

[frater luciferi]

YouTube - The Power of the Black Sun

[Luke Saint]

Nifty video Fr. L. While I watched it, two tones colored my emotion by morbidity and fascination. It's certainly art.

[frater luciferi]

the facist overtones of the end of the video kinda creeped me out a little, but i could see how the artist was kind of trying to make a point...

[m1thr0s]

yeah...but what a killer collection of images! I had to save that one to disk...it's a virtual dictionary of swastikas all by itself...

great snag luciferi...

[frater luciferi]

i will keep scouring the net for more positive swastika images ....

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/l_11463875bd9b3afb132378f84280c555.jpg

[MythMath]

Reminiscent of the Mitsu Tomoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoe) :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Tomoe.jpg/180px-Tomoe.jpg

edit: just found this link that Naomi may like:
Hotaru Tomoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotaru_Tomoe)

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/pic052008_7.jpg

[Raphael]

http://www.cultinfo.ru/fulltext/1/001/001/073/5-44.gif



CAn images 53 - 60 represent impreSSive electro-magnetic storms?
Outside of the body and inside?
As you investigate the swastika .... BECAUSE it is an UNIVERSAL divine archetype ... you will find many many many meanings can be attached to it.
But this only proves its universality.
IMHO



http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/projectf22/nature-1.gif





Note: the Symbol below contains the grid of the ancient Bush Barrow Lozenge:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/stcuswastika-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/Wiz-OZ/Bush_barrow_NZ.jpg

The Bush barrow Lozenge appears to be an ancient calendar & reckoning system, see http://www.celticnz.co.nz/BBLOZ/BBLOZWEB1.htm

This also connects to the other thread of the Lo-Shu magic square grid & Swastika.

frater luciferi, what company does this symbol below to?

Cheers from OZ

The symbols we see above connect to this symbol found in the Valley of Mexico / Aztec.
Early 20th century explorer/adventurer/truth seeker, James Churchward claimed it came from the mythical land of MU.


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l280/kachina2012/MUKeyofUniversalMovement-1.jpg




http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l280/kachina2012/RomanPavementatBath.gif


As you can see in the 3rd image on the right, the symbol appears in Rome...and it contains at the center ... the much revered JEWISH ... Solomon's Knot.
(Solomon's Knot = Celtic Knot = Endless Knot = Knotzis = Nazis)
(Hebrew for German is Ashkenaz = Ashkenazi)

The symbol found on the Niven Tablets which later went missing referred to this symbol (swastika) as the KEY to Universal Movement.

But both images you offer provide a valuable clue as to where we can find a most illuminating comparison...

The ancient Bush Barrow Lozenge though is far more credible a source for what I am about to suggest....

Can anybody suggest to me why the Bush Barrow is significant along with the swirling banking logo?
You learn more if you think your way through it.

Want a clue?
Look at your keyboard.
Look at the number 3.
Apply what you learn about the # (grid, as Wiz mentions) to this riddle found here.
http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=36944&postcount=1
Because you can.

Universe in a blade of grass eh grasshoppers?
How about if I use the qwerty keyboard to explain the qweer facts of life?
Because you can...
I may need to use ancient Chinese secrets...
Just to confucius ya,
Apply some martial ARTs,
Maybe apply some Sudoku or tic tac toe to your Lu-shu mushu?
:yes:

Ahhh MUlan ... the return of goddess consciousness....
2bee continued

namaste

Ra

[MythMath]

The Mystical Lo Shu #1 (http://www.abrahadabra.com/LoShu001.htm)

The Mystical Lo Shu #2 (http://www.abrahadabra.com/LoShu002.htm)

The Mystical Lo Shu #3 (http://www.abrahadabra.com/LoShu003.htm)

[Neshamah]

I hope you aren't mis-reading (mis-using) the word Ashkenazi. That word has NOTHING to do with the later Nazi socialist movement. Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi).

Your friendly neighborhood proof-reader,

Neshamah

[frater luciferi]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/fraterluciferi/pic082808_1.jpg

this is a ganesh swastika i found at a local fair..ie pigout at the park, a giant orgy of gluttony that involves every type of food imaginable AND a pretty decent row of psuedo-hippie stuff. i found this in the tent of a lovely tibetan woman who owns a nice import store .. it was only $45 but i hardly have the wall space :P

[Dragon]

That fucking RULES!

Hope it wanders to this side of the mountains to one of the various festivals.

~D~