Is Luciferianism a male-dominated path?

[Ðanisty]

I've been curious about this for some time now. It seems that all the Luciferians I meet are men. I don't have a problem with that and I'm honestly not that surprised since I seem to gravitate towards groups of men. I'm just genuinely curious. Are you male or female? Do you think Luciferianism is comprised mostly of men and if so, why do you suppose it's that way?

[DocHolliday]

I personally feel that occult endeavours in general boast more men than women. There are two ideas I have about this. The first is a simple lack of interest on the part of women, similar to the apparent lack of interest women tend to have in philosophy and politics. The second (which is more probable than the first) is societal conditioning. When women do break the societal mould and seek alternative pathways, the cesspool of "witcraft" books which target women seems to suck them into an inescapable realm of fluffy-bunniness, from which few escape.

[Ðanisty]

The second (which is more probable than the first) is societal conditioning. When women do break the societal mould and seek alternative pathways, the cesspool of "witcraft" books which target women seems to suck them into an inescapable realm of fluffy-bunniness, from which few escape.Sadly, I think that is probably the case.

[frater luciferi]

i have had a lot of friends who are wiccan, and their is a lot of fluffiness to it=but either way its a good alternative to fundamentalism, although i hate to admit it really does'nt hold a candle up to "true" wicca. I had a Gf in highschool who was a "generational" ? witch and she really did seem to have a connection to the all.

Whatever the statistics are as far as the overwhelming male population, it could be easily countered using the odvious fact that lucifer defys sexual conventions-
so as much he may take the form of hermes, he is also the she of venus! lol. The divine does'nt have a sex, merely a image that they manifest in light (been reading heavy into the kybalion btw) =as in the nephillim themselves were of both sexs- hermaphrodites, bearing the wisdom and power of both sides.

[Phosphoros]

Look at it from the opposite perspective: what is it about, for example, "witchcraft" that appeals to females more than Luciferianism?

There is no one specific reason of course, but in my opinion it can generally put down to a few elements:-

- We have had thousands of years of primarily partriarchal societies, and the reaction from the other half is to band with each other and against the "us". Thus it becomes a vicious cycle: because there are so few females, it willl less likely attract females.

- Luciferianism and related paths have a tendancy to give off quite a cold demeanour as far as I can see. They are (/ appear to be) very driven by intellectualism and logic and lack any aura of emotion or sensuality. Regardless of how true this is in practice, that is the impression and I am sure we can all understand the importance of impressions.

- There is also a positive / negative aspect to this as well. The male spirit is seemingly inherently wont towards the negative, whilst the female spirit is drawn towards the positive. A lot of occult paths take the stance of "positivity through negativity" and thusly become male-dominated, whilst a branch like Wicca creates the impression of "positivity through positivity". This ties in with the previous point too.

And uh...I'm sure I had more points but it is late and I'm not really thinking straight.

[Ðanisty]

Luciferianism and related paths have a tendancy to give off quite a cold demeanour as far as I can see. They are (/ appear to be) very driven by intellectualism and logic and lack any aura of emotion or sensuality.This is part of what I find appealing about it.

You bring up some very good points though, Phosphoros. We need to do what we can to give a more well-rounded and accurate impression of Luciferianism. We don't need people like Aaron Donahue showing the world we're a bunch of headcases...we're just regular people.

[Phosphoros]

This is part of what I find appealing about it.

I agree, but from the viewpoint of the masses it is very unappealing. Luciferianism and LHPs in general are very strong but the masses are incredibly weak and, moreover, ENJOY their weakness. Thus the idea that they may actually learn to fend for themselves and not have to rely on someone else is a big turn off.

:p

[frater luciferi]

i think perhaps it is also a bit of laziness as far as why not a lot more people learn to stand on their own. As a practicing eccentric and psuedo aestetic myself i find that group mentality is more a hindrance to my own personal "nirvana". It takes a lot of work and dedication- learning how to function without the "training wheels" that a lot of people have all their life is pretty friggin hard. Although I have found that the end results are astounding, the power to dispell convention is immensely gratifying.

[AppleJack]

As a practicing eccentric and psuedo aestetic myself i find that group mentality is more a hindrance to my own personal "nirvana". It takes a lot of work and dedication- learning how to function without the "training wheels" that a lot of people have all their life is pretty friggin hard. Although I have found that the end results are astounding, the power to dispell convention is immensely gratifying.


I can say It was not untill I decided to do things for myself that I started to be comfotable and satisfied with my path.:cool:

[hayabusa]

I can say It was not untill I decided to do things for myself that I started to be comfotable and satisfied with my path.
Me, too. When I first broke away from Christianity, I started reading occult books. I started out with some Wiccan books, and found them a little silly, if not utter bullshit. Plus, I couldn't figure out the claim that they practiced the oldest religion in the world. My logical side said "You don't believe that do you?" But I decided to read everything that was an introduction to one path or another, and find what I thought worked for me. I found that I agreed with some things in most paths, but didn't agree with everything. So I said "F.ck it" and created my own. I've been happy ever since.

[Ðanisty]

I found that I agreed with some things in most paths, but didn't agree with everything. So I said "F.ck it" and created my own. I've been happy ever since.The same goes for me. Most of the Luciferians I've met 'created' their own path. I think it's more like finding it though. It was always there and you just had to get through the bullshit to find it. By the way, there's no censorship. I don't care if you swear.

[hayabusa]

By the way, there's no censorship. I don't care if you swear.Thank the stars, because I'm a foul mouthed bastard. I get tired of holding back on other forums.

[sarpesius]

Luciferianism may be a male-dominated path only insofar as certain religious forms and ways of practicing the occult are more comfortable for men than women.

The true spirit of Lucerifianism has nothing to do with gender.

Women, I believe, are more attracted to Wicca and witchcraft, than men. Women seem to be more interested in performing their magick with candles and scents.

The mainstream satanist movement is in my opinion mainly populated by men, but it is in fact matriarchal. You can see this in some satanist documents, when they state reverence for the "beauty of woman."

Men would be more attracted to ceremonial magick, using the dagger and circle and rituals. I am guessing those joining the traditional orders would be overwhelmingly men.

sarpesius

[m1thr0s]

the "lack of passion" thing is disturbing if it persists...it also doesn't seem to make a whole hell of a lot of sense corresponding to Lucifer himself who certainly comes across as a rather passionate sort of genius actually...

I'm not sure how to combat that kind of stigma...more Luciferian rocks bands, I don't know...a greater presence in the arts in general would probably turn this around. Otherwise, that one is a killer really...if people see this whole thing as dead-pan dull they sure as hell aren't going to invest anything into it...

m1thr0s

[Ðanisty]

the "lack of passion" thing is disturbing if it persists...it also doesn't seem to make a whole hell of a lot of sense corresponding to Lucifer himself who certainly comes across as a rather passionate sort of genius actually...You know, I've never really understood this. How do people like this end up Luciferian?

[Kroni]

I don't see any reason that Luciferians can't be women, aside from their concern on how others might feel.

[Ðanisty]

I don't see any reason that Luciferians can't be women, aside from their concern on how others might feel.What do you mean by this?

[Kroni]

I've seen that women care more about what people think about them than men. Maybe the young women fear being made fun of? I see it all the time in teens, people hiding what they think so they aren't shunned by others.

[Ðanisty]

Meh, I just see that as a personal thing. I don't really care what others think and most of the women I know don't care. Maybe it is more of a teen thing. I don't know.

[TLF]

Do you think Luciferianism is comprised mostly of men and if so, why do you suppose it's that way?

I'm not quite sure why, but many of the western magical systems seems to be dominated by male members. Perhaps structure, orders and magical systems appeal more to men? Or maybe men are just more inclined to labelling their work?

[Ðanisty]

Or maybe men are just more inclined to labelling their work?You might be onto something here. It could be that women have a harder time labelling their work because they have a harder time defining it? It seems that for women (myself included) magick, theology, religion (whatever else you want to call it) is sort of all-inclusive and doesn't really have any rules or boundaries. This is, of course, just a generalization. Of course, I don't really see Luciferianism as having rules or boundaries either, so I'm not sure how that applies here.

[TLF]

You might be onto something here. It could be that women have a harder time labelling their work because they have a harder time defining it? It seems that for women (myself included) magick, theology, religion (whatever else you want to call it) is sort of all-inclusive and doesn't really have any rules or boundaries. This is, of course, just a generalization. Of course, I don't really see Luciferianism as having rules or boundaries either, so I'm not sure how that applies here.

I think you're right. Men's weakness is their need of rules and structures ... just take a look at the army *LOL* ... somehow it appeals to men to be "one of the guys" - which they can become by adopting some kind of group behaviorism.

In my experience (adult) women are often less in need of "group acceptance" as long as they're accepted by the few individuals they treasure the most. It's a special kind of courage in which the woman dares to stand out as a "one of a kind" even if opposed by the "group meaning". I don't know if this is genetic, but the female magicians I've met are really good at their trade, but (in "male minds") very unstructured and even chaotic.

Luciferianism is a label - and perhaps a label that doesn't appeal to strongly to the independant and strong woman - and therefore is a "restricting box". None the less, labelled or not, we're talking about the same thing :)

[TLF]

I've seen that women care more about what people think about them than men. Maybe the young women fear being made fun of? I see it all the time in teens, people hiding what they think so they aren't shunned by others.

Actually I see the exact opposite ... Boys want to "show off", girls rather wants to be acknowledged for who they are ...

[Chaostaticus]

I don't think women being more conscious about what they look like matter that much. Just like there are more men inclined towards Satanism and Luciferianism, there are more women inclined towards Wicca and Paganism. And Satanism and Luciferianism are indeed more 'aggressive' than Wicca and Paganism imo.

[Blackrose]

Isnt this about who is able to communicate with Seraphim? Mostly its rare to meet a female practitioner that has advanced to the grade of magical training that can call that rank. That is the big difference in wicca. However I do know male low level wiccan practitioners and at least one female adept; its all about your personal maturity and how well you can adhere to following through on your studies and also I think maybe a certain degree of personal charm, since Angels of that rank are kind of picky about their aquaintance and they wont communicate with the lesser mortals, I have noticed--lol. At first I just ASSUMED that all men were created equal in that regard, but experiance really has not proven that.

Angels really just like some people better. go figure.
I think you are about as likely to find a female adept as a female concert musician or chef. Some do it out of interest and they are pretty good. The reasons for doing so or not are similar: not everyone gets the right training, somepeople have family problems or what have you. You cant exactly practice ceremonial magic (or play the violin) if you have 10 screaming brats that have to be babysat.--Blkrse

[Shadow]

the "lack of passion" thing is disturbing if it persists...it also doesn't seem to make a whole hell of a lot of sense corresponding to Lucifer himself who certainly comes across as a rather passionate sort of genius actually...

I'm not sure how to combat that kind of stigma...more Luciferian rocks bands, I don't know...a greater presence in the arts in general would probably turn this around. Otherwise, that one is a killer really...if people see this whole thing as dead-pan dull they sure as hell aren't going to invest anything into it...

m1thr0s
Good to hear from you all, M1thr0s the philosopher unbounded, our great logical Frater Luciferi, Danisty the devoted, and all the other great Light bringers. I am always awed by you all's presence. In time I hope to set up a fund for luciferians. Lucifer has me so busy studyingthe quantums. I uncover new techologies almost every other day. THANKS! I really wish I had more time but I am trying to make time. Luciferians regardless where they are, or what social program is enacted against them, we still hold the same belief/knowledge even though we do not know each other. On the Fluff bunnies, I believe it is natural to become a fluf bunny, because that is breaking out of the shell of ignorance and oppression. I know luciferian fluff bunnies and they mostly major in law and/or philosophy. They are freed from enslavement!

[TLF]

And Satanism and Luciferianism are indeed more 'aggressive' than Wicca and Paganism imo.

I don't find Luciferianism 'aggressive' at all and, frankly, most 'satanists' I've ever met were spineless cowards in life, hiding behind a mask which they though displayed 'power' and 'independence' while not seeing people laugh at them behind their back ... seriously, a lot of 'satanists' simply needs to get laid ... :D

[darkdestiny]

It depends on how you mean by "male dominated". I see it like this. I am a woman and use the left side of my brain (by birth) more so than the right which is related to these traits; math, logic, struture, analyzing, and of the like. The right is associated with feelings, imgaination, intuition have you. I just so happen to like men and enjoy they're company so I'm not complaning. :)

[Ðanisty]

I like men and enjoy their company too. Actually, I've only had 3 or so female friends in the entire 27 years that I've been alive.

[darkdestiny]

I like men and enjoy their company too. Actually, I've only had 3 or so female friends in the entire 27 years that I've been alive. Yeah, men are much more easier to get along with.

[Psyche]

I'm a female. :P

[deviadah]

Do you think Luciferianism is comprised mostly of men and if so, why do you suppose it's that way?
I found this old thread while looking through the archives... I like finding old gems! :rofl:

Not really a Luciferian so I won't vote in the poll to fuck it up, but I thought I'd raise some points since I find this interesting. I am sorry if I go a little outside Luciferiansim and say something on the occult in general. What follows is personal opinion (I have no facts to back any of this shit up)!

There are more females in the occult than in many other areas of society. Why that is I am not sure? Perhaps occultists are not so gender-obsessed? Or they are generally outsiders and therefore have no problem taking in other outsiders (as women are still in society).

In the occult you also have a lot of gods that are not male; Lilith and Isis (just to name two big fish).

I was angry to see Satan portrayed as a female in Gibsons crap film about Jesus! But I guess he wanted to slam two flies with one blow (jews and women)! :rofl:

Seriously, the occult has more to offer women than say professional ice-hockey! In Satanism there's a whole Satanic Witch thing also (empowerment of female attributes), and Wicca is almost pure feminine in its membership!

In alchemy though I think there is a shortage, why I don't really know? From someone looking in it is pretty phallic in some of its imagery, and perhaps the feminine importance is not seen until one dives into it?

Some thoughts there anyway... perhaps get this thread going again?

:cool:

[Beros]

I've been curious about this for some time now. It seems that all the Luciferians I meet are men. I don't have a problem with that and I'm honestly not that surprised since I seem to gravitate towards groups of men. I'm just genuinely curious. Are you male or female? Do you think Luciferianism is comprised mostly of men and if so, why do you suppose it's that way?

I've met women in different places who said they were Wiccans, Pagans, Witches, Satanists and Atheists...never met a woman who said she was a Luciferian. But that may not mean too much--I've never met a man who said he was either.

Understandably, Luciferianism de-mystifies things. And as Phosophoros had mentioned, there is a lack of emotion and sensuality in the philosophy. I just don't imagine that to be an appealing pitch presented to women, in general.

:sad:I think Luciferianism is comprised mostly of men for sure--not because it attracts more men, but that it repels more women. That's what I'm thinking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:laugh:A funny thing happened. A couple days after I posted this, two women joined the order that I am a part of. Weird.

[ambercatgoddess]

I am completely new here to this forum.But i am a Luciferian practitioner.I have always tended to delve into the left hand path.I was not in the least bit interested in Wicca or Fairy Wicca etc.It did not appeal to me at all.It seemed really unbalanced.Everything is primarily focused on the light and positive only.That is not reality.

[MythMath]

Welcome to the forums, ambercatgoddess...

[m1thr0s]

I can't honestly equilibrate wicca and witchcraft in the same context...I just know too many wiccans for this to be possible for me personally.

Since it is not really my chosen path I can afford to be generous but wicca has always struck me as gossipy and shallow in the extreme...even committed to its own shallowness which is a little weird...defiantly twitters...oh goody...lucky us.

maybe some wiccan with a brain a little bigger than a hairball will finally come along and put me straight but I rather doubt it...it has been tried and the results were not especially pretty to look at...I'm no godamm fan of dumb.

But witchcraft itself is obviously ancient and goes all the way back in time with shamanism and pre-dynastic magick and mysticism on all these different levels. Yet it seems to be having a tough time of it today...not uncommonly from the likes of wiccans and other pseudo-witchcraftian conglomerations...

I keep the door ajar in any case...there's a lot going on there once you get past a few of these more superficial layers...

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

well, being "bitchy" is ok though Talkingfox...so long as it's honest. I don't recall ever clamping down on this personally...I'd have to delete ¼ of all my own posts I think...

I suppose if we try to look at it from a strictly (recent) historical perspective we might reasonably conclude that Wicca is and always was primarily a political movement that succeeded in legitimizing modern witchcraft as a recognized religion - particularly in the US. As far as I can tell, that's about as far as it goes and movements like this inevitably succumb to over-saturation as a price for their success.

That being the case, it would be sort of silly to expect Wicca to represent much other than a mainstream perspective on contemporary witchcraft. It really has no historical validity outside of these more current (political) events.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Yeah, Wicca is a good beginner's introduction I think, and it serves well as a smokescreen. I think it will grow to become something different but like Satanism it has to be given some time to get over itself.

Satanism is almost as bad as Wicca - we just have better fashion sense.

Being a witch is a little different, I really think it just has to do with being in tune with nature, no ritual gimmicks or custom made tools attached... sort of like the Tolkien elf thing, but with a real objective in mind. Naturally, most people are born this way, but I do believe anyone can attain to oneness with nature, just as Siddhartha believed every human being had a chance to become a buddha.

I really don't know where Talkingfox is, did she write and then delete her post? Where'd it go?

[frater luciferi]

witcca is good for the basics... i myself still use/follow a lot of the basic shite from wicca since i had hung out with a lot of "witches" ...more witch then wiccan if you catch my drift..

[Talkingfox]

well, being "bitchy" is ok though Talkingfox...so long as it's honest. I don't recall ever clamping down on this personally...I'd have to delete ¼ of all my own posts I think...

I suppose if we try to look at it from a strictly (recent) historical perspective we might reasonably conclude that Wicca is and always was primarily a political movement that succeeded in legitimizing modern witchcraft as a recognized religion - particularly in the US. As far as I can tell, that's about as far as it goes and movements like this inevitably succumb to over-saturation as a price for their success.

That being the case, it would be sort of silly to expect Wicca to represent much other than a mainstream perspective on contemporary witchcraft. It really has no historical validity outside of these more current (political) events.

m1thr0s


Actually this was discussed some time back on this thread :)

http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=695

[m1thr0s]

true enough...and I even appear to agree with myself! historic. lol...

m1thr0s

[ambercatgoddess]

Thank you for the greeting MythMath :)
(http://forums.abrahadabra.com/member.php?u=109)