Strength

[feranaja]

Lately I've been meditating a great deal on the esoteric meaning of the Strength card, but i didn't want to put this in tarot as I lalways like to ground my ideas in the larger world - explore the concept from the inside out so to speak?

I so often hear occult people saying that (this is simply by way of example) that followers of the Christian Path are fluffy or weak in the head, but really - what in life is harder than loving your enemies? I haven't the strength for it, I'm stuck in ego whereby if I've been harmed I focus rather too much on how unjust it all is, how morally (and every way) superior I am and so on - the usual...today on my walk I could think of nothing harder than loving those who hate me...even those who truly deserve my pity and compassion, I'm just not there yet.

What is strength if not doing that which is most difficult for you to do?? Isn't lovingkindness and forgiveness even for the "evil" in our lives THE hardest and highest thing we are called on to do?


What's hardest for you to do in this life?
Dont flame me, I'm just hoping to discuss this a little...:)

fera

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Well, I hardly think that Christians can be described as loving their enemies. Acts like these are pursued by altruists, and altruists are always individuals. And whether they are dumb or not for doing so depends entirely on their motivations and the circumstances at hand, as well as on their consideration or lack thereof of the consequences of their decisions. Being selfless can often be the most egoistic of acts.

[feranaja]

Well, I hardly think that Christians can be described as loving their enemies. Acts like these are pursued by altruists, and altruists are always individuals. And whether they are dumb or not for doing so depends entirely on their motivations and the circumstances at hand, as well as on their consideration or lack thereof of the consequences of their decisions. Being selfless can often be the most egoistic of acts.

Wow...a complicated answer...:)

I guess I'm talking about a Christian ideal, not trying to describe the whole lot of Christians or anything. Love Thine Enemy is a commandment and I value it, am in awe of it and wonder what it can mean for a poor sod like me. I'm not really talking about being a selfless poseur for egoic reasons, or ostentatious self martyrdom - what I'd like to examine here is the true potential of this thought. Most of us cant even do a decent job loving our friends, so I just wonder if this enemy thing is setting the bar too high or a valuable goal to reach towards...someday? To be honest I'm trying to be better at loving my loved ones, for now.

but what else might strength consist of? Letting go of pain? Is that strength or repression/denial and how do we decide?
fera

[m1thr0s]

Anybody see Kingdom of Heaven? That was kind of a stark commentary on the way Christians have typically gone about "loving" their enemies...cries of "God wills it!" preceding every mindless slaughter they lovingly lavished on their dear enemies...many of them women, children, elderly people and so on. Christians loved the American Indians right to the brink of extinction and we could go on and on with this almost indefinitely. Apparently these ideals only really kick in after "business" has been taken care of...

So I can't honestly buy into Christians as any special example of this principle of strength and I am not convinced that anything which is actually impossible for people can be used as an example of strength in general. Yet there are others who have attempted to invoke this standard...Buddhists...Ghandi and so on. If it can be translated into some form of action/non-action that people can actually do in a given situation, then perhaps it still applies. The problem I have with it really is that it's still aiming at assimilation. We might as well just say "absorb" your enemies for what we really find being exemplified anywhere.

I think I do not try to look at the Strength card via that particular example personally but look more to its elemental and astrological properties...also it's position on the Tree of Life and other things of that nature. It's a Leo thing I think and I sort of identify via the whole "Lion" example mainly and the whole idea of being in balance with yourself and in tune with your whole nature...both animal and divine etc. I think it's all about this kind of balance...and about eliminating internal discrepancies.

m1thr0s

[Radiant Star]

I think its easy to confuse being strong with being right. At its basic level it seems only to mean that we have had the courage of our convictions and acted or chosen not to act and stuck with that decision despite difficulties.

As others have pointed out though, there are all kinds of reasons for being strong; anger can make us strong as can fear in some ways. Not sure how much the reasons matter as far as the actual strength itself goes.

People have often remarked on how strong I was when I was seriously ill some years back - that is how I appeared because I kept going and putting on a cheerful face, but there wasn't really anything strong about it. I got up, coped as best I could each day and that was that. If I had been strong, I might have put more effort into supporting the local group that was there for people with that kind of health issue.

Its not clear cut at all.

[m1thr0s]

Sometimes just dealing with life on its own terms the best you can is what strength really is. The ability to minimize life's hardships as much as possible by not making matters any worse than they are already can also be seen as an important part of strength. When we talk about an object being strong we seem to have a clearer grasp of what we mean...if a house or a bridge is strong it means it can withstand the pressures brought to bear against it and remain reasonably unaffected but when we talk about ourselves being strong we can fall off into unrealistic expectations. Strength doesn't inherently bestow sainthood on anybody so you can't use sainthood as a measure of strength itself. At the level of nature, it often only implies the ability to break even against the odds...whatever odds might be set against it...or us.

m1thr0s

[Sibylle]

Ricci, I agree that it's not clear cut. There is strength, and there is bravado - which might be used out of fear and a sense of weakness.

Strength is surviving, getting through and not compromising when it is not appropriate to do so.

I've been called strong when I haven't felt strong. Other times I've recognized my own strength.

From my perspective, that you survived your illness indicates that you were strong - or at least strong enough, which is what matters most. And to survive means using what strength you have in the right way. Supporting the local group might have weakened you.

I too was seriously ill at one time, fairly close to death. I not only didn't fight, I totally surrendered. I didn't expect myself to survive. But here I am. I can only conclude that there can be great strength in surrender, a power independent of acknowledgement even.

[m1thr0s]

Supporting the local group might have weakened you.I'd bet money on that, personally, especially since there seems to be a twinge of regret over it...so some part wanted to do this but another part said no...this patient needs rest and regularity...no new challenges right now. That's probably your inner doctor calling the shots...

m1thr0s

[Radiant Star]

I too was seriously ill at one time, fairly close to death. I not only didn't fight, I totally surrendered. I didn't expect myself to survive. But here I am.
Well, I am glad you are still here. You seem to have some wonderful qualities.

My own lack of strength was in the fact that not only would I have fully surrendered to it, I would have welcomed it and wished for it. I realize that some of this labelling of weakness or strength is to do with other peoples expectations. We are expected to be strong at times when maybe all we can do is go with whatever is happening.

I'd bet money on that, personally, especially since there seems to be a twinge of regret over it...so some part wanted to do this but another part said no...this patient needs rest and regularity...no new challenges right now. That's probably your inner doctor calling the shots...

m1thr0s

You are right. I have a sense of guilt that maybe I could have done more but you have to have the will to live to get on with life and that was lacking in fullness at that time.

The idea that an inner part of me was directing things sounds right now; I think a part of our conditioning is to teach us to override such things and in a way, this takes our own strength away. I can see that now.

[Kazahel]

I guess I'm talking about a Christian ideal, not trying to describe the whole lot of Christians or anything. Love Thine Enemy is a commandment and I value it, am in awe of it and wonder what it can mean for a poor sod like me. Well I think that Love Thine Enemy just means that even if you have people you fight with you shouldnt actually wish death upon them, I cant word it very well but to me its like.. if you worship a living god He is living in everyone.. even the enemy.. so how then can the enemy really be the enemy when they are with the living? So if you wish death upon them, you are wishing death upon Him who is also in you. Thats kinda how I look at it. So to love the enemy to me just means to not wish death upon them because it lowers your love for Him when you do. Which means the more you can actually love the enemy the more you are loving Him who is in you.

I dont really think its a hard thing to do.. you just know that God created everyone and his wish was for them to live and so it depends on if you want to go along with His wish.

[feranaja]

Anybody see Kingdom of Heaven? That was kind of a stark commentary on the way Christians have typically gone about "loving" their enemies...cries of "God wills it!" preceding every mindless slaughter they lovingly lavished on their dear enemies...many of them women, children, elderly people and so on. Christians loved the American Indians right to the brink of extinction and we could go on and on with this almost indefinitely. Apparently these ideals only really kick in after "business" has been taken care of...

I just saw it actually, nice piece of filmmaking...but again I can only reiterate that the evils issuing from ALL religions are not the parts that concern me. Pagans fed young women with babies to wild animals and burned old men alive for public entertainment. Islam has a fair share of fundamentalists inclined to violent means, I've noticed. The human impulse to evil can find justification in almost any philosophy, so I tend to examine the theology and assumptions of a given religion in a separate context from the lunatic actions of midnless followers. There is of course ample justification in all the holy books for any sort of atrocity you can think of. It's the words of Christ I find compelling in many places, especially the suppressed gospels..



So I can't honestly buy into Christians as any special example of this principle of strength and I am not convinced that anything which is actually impossible for people can be used as an example of strength in general.


Again I can only reiterate I didnt intend to say Christians were an example of this standard... only that their religious mandate is to try.

Now the second remark here is VERY important for me. If you set the bar too high you will always fail, although some of the truly inteligent and dedicated Christians I know whould suggest the importat things is in the trying, not the attainment. I said earlier there is on way I could love a true enemy - by that I mean someone who actually caused real pain and suffering to me or mine - but I can try to be forgiving of minor slights, I can remind myself to be more supportive to my friends, I can strive to have understanding of evil people at the same time I abominate their behaviour. Just in striving that way I think we become better people, no?


Yet there are others who have attempted to invoke this standard...Buddhists...Ghandi and so on. If it can be translated into some form of action/non-action that people can actually do in a given situation, then perhaps it still applies. The problem I have with it really is that it's still aiming at assimilation. We might as well just say "absorb" your enemies for what we really find being exemplified anywhere.

I've never looked at it this way...food for thought m1thr0s...


I think I do not try to look at the Strength card via that particular example personally but look more to its elemental and astrological properties...also it's position on the Tree of Life and other things of that nature. It's a Leo thing I think and I sort of identify via the whole "Lion" example mainly and the whole idea of being in balance with yourself and in tune with your whole nature...both animal and divine etc. I think it's all about this kind of balance...and about eliminating internal discrepancies.

This is how I approach it as well actually...well in this instance as the 19th Path, which has been something of a struggle for me for some time. BUt I also bear in mind the idea that Strength is not Force...and it's more often love that helas and resolves conflict than violence ever does. Still, as I *say* that I know if anyone caused my loved ones harm what I would want to do...balancing force and compassion can be very difficult and I suppose it's only with the passing of time and much contemplation we achieve the wisdom to know when to invoke what...
fera

[feranaja]

People have often remarked on how strong I was when I was seriously ill some years back - that is how I appeared because I kept going and putting on a cheerful face, but there wasn't really anything strong about it. I got up, coped as best I could each day and that was that. If I had been strong, I might have put more effort into supporting the local group that was there for people with that kind of health issue.

Its not clear cut at all.



When I was also seriously ill I was told repeatedly how weak I was, becasue I dropped out of university, cut my social scene and spent years in seclusion. But those were the very things I needed to do to recover on every level. I understood my own illness as originating in the psyche and manifesting physically (Grave's disease, FMS and so on) but I felt sure if I dealt *only* with the physical I would simply develop something else - those were years of great difficulty and also intense beauty and growth and I am as fit and well at my age now only because I did precisely what society thought was a sign of weakness; I put my recovery first.

But the negative effects of how people treated me still linger. I was everyone's darling when I threw parties and made the scene; as soon as I withdrew I was labeled everything from hsyterical to a hypochondriac and so on. People can be so cruel. I learned to do what needs to be done and evaluate people by how they judge ME. I don't know if this makes me strong, but I will say I've developed some serious backbone as a result of that experience, whereas before I was like a candle in the wind.

My love of solitude stems from this experience too; too much society and I start to feel unbalanced again.
fera

[feranaja]

I just re=read Sibylle's post. Isn't it interesting how mnay of us have had serious or even life threatening illness in our past? I experienced a great turning point during those years and it seems I'm not alone. Possibly another topic but what strikes me is the strength human beings can find in adversity. I emerged from my own battle incredibly deepened and changed. Sounds like you both did as well.

Pain is a great teacher, "God's megaphone" as CS Lewis famously put it - but I wish there were pleasanter ways to get those same lessons.

fera

[Radiant Star]

Pain is a great teacher, "God's megaphone" as CS Lewis famously put it - but I wish there were pleasanter ways to get those same lessons. fera
Doesn't always work in the way you might think. This is what I mean by not being strong, my challenges did not make me a better or a stronger person; rather the opposite.

The thing that really gave me strength and changed me was when I found the occult world.

[feranaja]

It's true you know, hardship can also ruin people's lives and weaken them enormously. I've felt very weakened by the pain of my recent bereavement, but my longterm illness ultimately gave me much more discernemnt about people and faith in myself.

It's good the occult has been a source of strength for you Ricci. I think it was for me for a long while, not so sure about now.
fera

[m1thr0s]

I don't know if it's ever really very clear the extent to which our beliefs provide us with a basis to strength. Sometimes more than others I think...no matter what those beliefs may be. One of the real advantages of occultism is that you are free to pull from just about anywhere, but even this can be a burden if you find yourself longing for a simpler kind of faith...one that doesn't require you to make the rules so much etc... Life just isn't an easy thing I think.

Sometimes it helps to try to sort out where you would be if you didn't hold the values that you do, but if you approach this from too biased a perspective it may be no help at all. In my case I guess I am fairly resolved that my beliefs are really a consequence of who I am anyway and I very much doubt that anywhere else I might find myself would be remarkably different that way. I think I would always be heading for the "fringe" of any matrix I wound up in, since this is just the way my heart & mind naturally tend to gravitate.

m1thr0s

[Radiant Star]

It's good the occult has been a source of strength for you Ricci. I think it was for me for a long while, not so sure about now.
fera
Its well known that for good mental health and happiness that there need to be certain things in one's life. For instance, adequate nutrition, some exercize and good health helps; also friends to confide in, a hobby or two, ienough money to survive and a little more, sleep etc etc. So it might be a coincidence, but most of these needs happened to have been met or increased around the time I became interested in the occult, but it was more than that for me. People often talk of finding missing links, its quite a common expression for say a gay person to say that once he or she had found others and maybe entered a new relationship, that they found the missing link, for me, magick was my link. Obviously, not all of my needs are fulfilled, I doubt that anybody has total fulfilment, but as long as we feel we have all of our links, whether they are going well or not, I think most would say they feel strong and mostly happy.

One of the real advantages of occultism is that you are free to pull from just about anywhere
Indeed. I hate organized religions and systems, I much prefer to take principles and build on them myself.

I think I would always be heading for the "fringe" of any matrix I wound up in, since this is just the way my heart & mind naturally tend to gravitate.
This is something that people are always trying to 'fix' in me to help me become strong and confident and sociable (etc.) would you believe. I am enough of a sheep already, I don't need to be exactly the same do I :eek: