I will begin Qlippothic meditations soon [Archive]

m1thr0s

01-11-2007, 06:21 PM

I suppose you all know that there really doesn't exist any such thing as a Tree of Death, Qabbalistically, right? It's a fad mostly and a very recent one, mostly spearheaded by Kenneth Grant and then embellished upon by various other people. There's no actual basis to any of it historically...

The Greeks had a concept called Antichton (counter-earth), first proposed by Philolaus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philolaus), one of Pythagoras's brighter students, that is sort of similar to the so-called Tree of Death/Qliphoth et al...but even this was regarded as a necessary extension of earth that served as a kind of protective buffer against the heat of the sun etc...sort of the original "ozone" theory actually...

Anyway...not to dampen anybody's enthusiasm but I would be extremely surprized if anybody actually got much out of this area of investigation. It mostly comes off like a morbid fascination with dead stuff. I keep trying to sort out what use any of it might have but haven't found much of anything yet.

Death as it pertains to the Tree of Life isn't huddled around its outer edges but is actually a function and property of Crown itself, hence the saying "Death is the Crown of All"...just as a matter of information. What this tells us is that Death is an integrated property of Life...not something apart from it. I often get the feeling people are just burnt out on the Tree of Life in general, which I can relate to, but I don't think the solution is to be found anywhere in its immediate shadow. If we are looking to "dark" properties from which the ToL may emanate, we actually have to look to first principles from which the Tree may have originally derived. Things like the so-called *flower of life* and so on give us some clue that these "first principles" may in fact exist historically and have been somehow lost down through the ages.

but who knows...maybe you'll discover something no one else really has. It's always good to at least be aware of opposing points of view going into these things I think. The Tree of Death is hardly an established reality of any kind. It's mostly a catchy sound-bite, signifying not much of anything really.

note: Just to keep things in balance...on the flip-side we do have a stark parallel to the broken vessels of Qliphoth and the whole idea of galactic evolution. The Milky Way is a second-generation galaxy as are nearly all galaxies we can actually detect at this point, but scientists have been able to ascertain that there was at one time a universe full of first-generation galaxies, all of which died off rather quickly as they were too heavy on the infrared end of the spectrum. So, like the "vessels", they were too weak to sustain the "emanations" they bore and a second-generation galaxies finally replaced them. In a sense, this entire realm of first-generation galaxies can be looked upon as the original universal "qliphoth". Some believe this is where "dark matter" comes from...

So I am not saying these ideas are without merit. I am basically saying be very prepared to think for yourselves and to think in ways not previously explored. There really are no established authorities in this area...just your average psycho/poser types looking to suck people in on the basis of a lot of charged rhetoric they really know almost nothing about. As for any archetypes corresponding to these first-generation galaxies...ouch...watch out boy...you'll be looking at some very weird life forms that are so long dead and so fundamentally hostile as to propose a very challenging situation to even the most experienced of magicians. Be advised of the saying *misery loves company*, to which you might want to add *for dinner*. I never understand why people want to go charging right off into the most dangerous things they hear about. Probably because they don't really comprehend how perilous these things might really be. Don't forget to pack your shields.

m1thr0s

Copuldaemon

01-11-2007, 07:49 PM

m1thr0s

01-11-2007, 07:58 PM

well, nearly any traditional hebrew will scoff at qabbalah...they enjoy scoffing at anything that isn't traditional hebrew stuff. But qabbalah nevertheless comes out of this tradition and is a compendium of esoteric teachings adjacent to, but never mainsteam in that whole tradition. Something like 8% of polled hebrew clergy believe there is any value to qabbalah at all...

I would be the last person on earth to turn down any hecate's salad...just so you have some idea what you might be getting into. The main point of my post is to assert that there are no real authorities in this field...so don't rely on their expertise too much...it's 99.9% smoke & mirrors...

Nevertheless, I have my own reasons for thinking something is going on there...

m1thr0s

Copuldaemon

01-11-2007, 08:46 PM

no, no, i think you misunderstand. personally for me, my take on everything within the modern approach of my mind is that everything is an atavism or a system to help scoop out yourself.
i know the qabalah system is potent because i have come across a very shocking *discovery that schoked me senseless and i've never been able to have it again and i know it's because i partially don't want to get shocked like that again, it was a revelation. now, despite it being a total experience of subjectivity, was the revelation of my own divinity or of another divinity?

I kind of agree with LMD's approach on demonic/uncleanly filth is that we can't ignore it, our part of ourselves and or to say that we are divine and the tree inversed or not are the glyphs or skeletal frame work of our universes, i want to see the crap pits of my cosmos just that i have a system that can guide me.

no, i don't listen to any authority either but i do take notes and like to see what i can use to help in my own conclusions or i use them for my amusement since nothing in my life is uniformal. but yeah, hebrews like that are that way,lol.

i remember that guy after that kind of looked at me as a retarded gimp, lol. for real, lol,hahehaha. he thought i was really a set of clipped orangatang nuts, lol.

Ci Celli Ddu

01-11-2007, 09:45 PM

hitman777

01-11-2007, 10:13 PM

m1thros, i will read the rest of this later when things quiet down but in response to the header, I guess thanks for letting me know about that but it doesn't matter.
in fact, over the summer time, a devout black hebrew laughed, scoffed and then spat on the ground when i had mention that i was familiar with meditating on the qabalah. duke, took as if i had asked how furry his yezidic wifes pelt was for as he proudly broke down to me that there's no such thing nor system and got into something about counting god's nose hairs, wtf?

so really it matters not or i just can't put anything else on the subject being such that i had never gone that route yet. perhaps it's spiritually tossing hecate's salad, and if so, you got ranch?
I wouldn't take him too seriously. Black "Hebrews" are pretty much the black version of White "Christian Identity" people. Both claim that their own race is actually the Chosen People of God, and that the Jews are mere pretenders to the throne. I am not talking about blacks who have converted to Judaism here, I am talking about the "Black Hebrew" movement itself.

hitman

Ci Celli Ddu

01-11-2007, 11:00 PM

I wouldn't take him too seriously. Black "Hebrews" are pretty much the black version of White "Christian Identity" people. Both claim that their own race is actually the Chosen People of God, and that the Jews are mere pretenders to the throne. I am not talking about blacks who have converted to Judaism here, I am talking about the "Black Hebrew" movement itself.

hitman

Jesus and Moses were black. Or possibly white. Maybe even turquoise. My own view is that if the Sun shines out of your ass then you have to be a luminescent kind of yellow.

m1thr0s

01-11-2007, 11:36 PM

well I'll be very interested to hear what you all might come up with phenomena-wise or whatever. Like I said, I think there is a basis to qliphoth in nature itself but it's pretty much uncharted waters so far as any written material goes. Just about everything written on it has come out within the last 50 years or thereabouts. More in the last 10 than the last 50 and more in the last 50 than the last 500 etc...

Think "dark matter" though...something has got to be going on there I would imagine...

m1thr0s

hitman777

01-12-2007, 06:50 AM

Jesus and Moses were black. Or possibly white. Maybe even turquoise. My own view is that if the Sun shines out of your ass then you have to be a luminescent kind of yellow.

How did you know that the sun shines out of my ass? I've got to invest in thicker pants....:laugh:

Ci Celli Ddu

01-12-2007, 05:01 PM

How did you know that the sun shines out of my ass? I've got to invest in thicker pants....:laugh:

hehe. I was of course refering to JC and Big M, but if the sun shines out of your ass too, then you should visit Wales in the winter (it's kinda dark and cold round here)

hitman777

01-12-2007, 05:17 PM

hehe. I was of course refering to JC and Big M, but if the sun shines out of your ass too, then you should visit Wales in the winter (it's kinda dark and cold round here)

Uh, I may have to pass. I don't normally let dudes look at my ass, so it would only be sunny for the females.:laugh:

Kain

01-13-2007, 09:07 AM

well I'll be very interested to hear what you all might come up with phenomena-wise or whatever. Like I said, I think there is a basis to qliphoth in nature itself but it's pretty much uncharted waters so far as any written material goes. What is interesting is that although a Qlippothic *Tree* doesn't exist per se (in my experience), it seems to be temporarily formulated as a point of contact between the two fields of "matter" and "anti-matter". It is like the qlippothic plane necessarilly situates itself in a "shadow tree" formation in order to manage to directly interract with the ToL. A very interesting occurance which also seems necessary, as the normalization and interraction between the two is quite explosive but also necessary for Integration, Resolution and Transmutation to occur.

Kain

Amur

01-13-2007, 01:29 PM

How did you know that the sun shines out of my ass? I've got to invest in thicker pants....:laugh:

So THAT'S how I use this thing?!? Rofl... Thank you very much, you solved an important equation with that piece of information. Didn't know that it was to be used like that :laugh:

Heard an interesting story about Krsna as a child. He was outside with his mom, suddenly he ate some mud and laughed. When he opened his mouth, his mom gasped astonished and as she saw the universe inside. Whereas He laughed again :laugh:

m1thr0s

01-13-2007, 02:15 PM

What is interesting is that although a Qlippothic *Tree* doesn't exist per se (in my experience), it seems to be temporarily formulated as a point of contact between the two fields of "matter" and "anti-matter". It is like the qlippothic plane necessarilly situates itself in a "shadow tree" formation in order to manage to directly interract with the ToL. A very interesting occurance which also seems necessary, as the normalization and interraction between the two is quite explosive but also necessary for Integration, Resolution and Transmutation to occur. that's interesting and sort of puts us back at the Antichton premise...sort of a *buffer zone* mediating radiation itself on certain levels...

m1thr0s

Naomi

01-13-2007, 03:43 PM

M1thr0s I didn't know that about the scientific evidence for dead galaxies before our own..that's fascinating and lines right up with my research down there, wherever there is.

Kain I like your insight as well. It seems to be a buffer zone to a much worse place. (Oh M1thr0s already said that.) :\

Also it could just be a human concept that exists only in our mind. Shadows were mysterious and perplexing things to ancient peoples and took on a mystical context. Perhaps the people who came up with the idea of a tree of life also imagined it to have a shadow, because everything else does.

Even if that is so...as above, so below...

m1thr0s

01-13-2007, 04:16 PM

M1thr0s I didn't know that about the scientific evidence for dead galaxies before our own..that's fascinating and lines right up with my research down there, wherever there is.well...there's a lot of articles on this available on the web, just so you know I'm not blowing hot air through my face or anything...they've got telescopes now that can actually see these things being formed billions of years ago. It's hard to wrap your brain around something like that.

Here's an article with a lot of cool pics... First Stars (http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/first.htm)

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

01-13-2007, 05:32 PM

I thought I'd take the liberty of taking a few notes out of Liber HVHI, seeing as that will be my main source book when entering the kingdom of shells:

The Qlippoth (QLYPWTh) is the darkside or inverse of the Sephiroth. The Sephiroth is the ancient Hebrew system of the Cabala in relation to numbers, spheres and areas of energy. The Qlippoth...is a map to the spheres and energies of demons and the shells of the dead. These shells may be embodied with life by the sorcerer who uses his/her mind to fill them.The goal of the sorcerer is to find and empower these dark spheres and tunnels within the brain, thus creating and opening them up to initiate one into the Infernal or Satanic path.

The Qlippoth is considered dangerous....While the Qlippoth is dangerous, it is a much needed challenge with a great reward for the magician strong enough to master it. It must be kept in mind that the Qlippothic demons are in theory fallen angels, those who understand the nature of Light and Wisdom, know that the spirits fell from heaven into the darkness itself; thus they have the mastery of both hell and heaven. These 'places' may be considered states of mind and exist foremost within the self of the magician.

hitman777

01-13-2007, 07:18 PM

So THAT'S how I use this thing?!? Rofl... Thank you very much, you solved an important equation with that piece of information. Didn't know that it was to be used like that :laugh:

Heard an interesting story about Krsna as a child. He was outside with his mom, suddenly he ate some mud and laughed. When he opened his mouth, his mom gasped astonished and as she saw the universe inside. Whereas He laughed again :laugh:
Hey, um that's not to be used!
Jeez.
Guess I'll have to store the sun somewhere else from now on.:mad:

Ci Celli Ddu

01-13-2007, 08:30 PM

The Qlippoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth) can't be all that new:

The Zohar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohar) describes the qliphoth as the result of separation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation) necessary in the act of creation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_%28theology%29). Between two things, there must be a gap or barrier, and that is a qliphah.

Copuldaemon

01-14-2007, 03:10 AM

Well why speculate on it????? All's I said was that I'm going to start working with it, whether it exists of not. I don't care about anything else besides that.
When I do start these exercises, hopefully I will begin to post some things about it-if I get to that point.

ciaou

-Er...wow. Okay I didn't see that I had gotten so defensive. Why, I do not know. Sorry. Everybodies imput was very important except for anal retentive sunny disposition for whales.
I still haven't gotten into this field as of yet but will do so.

Kain

01-14-2007, 10:44 AM

The Zohar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohar) describes the qliphoth as the result of separation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation) necessary in the act of creation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_%28theology%29). Between two things, there must be a gap or barrier, and that is a qliphah. Yes, that's an interesting description. It is also related to my own understanding of them to an extent, as I perceive them as having to do with the necessary seperation for manifestation to take place. I wasn't aware that this was the way the Zohar put it as well however.

It seems (out of my personal observations) that the seperation of the Qlippoth is the necessary phenomenon for the Sephiroth and the ToL in general to attain their correct form and essence as the manifestation of Divinity, while functioning in an imperfect setting. Since the setting cannot stand up to that sort of scrutiny without Transmutation, the first step is Seperation of the materials that are not fit for building the "Body". This is similar to the act of Alchemical Seperation in Hermetic Alchemy, where there the Air is seperated from the Earth. It could also be described as a banishing of a massive extent. In my experience, this seperation is necessary for the manifest Form/Body to initially resonate with the highest crown. Then, transmutation of the Qlippothic region begins, as Qlippoth and Sephiroth are necessary components of the phenomenon of Manifestation. As the strengthened Body comes into contact with the Qlippothic Tree and all the more transmutates the Qlippoth into Sephiroth inertia, the Body resonates even more intensely with the highest crown. An interesting triangular energy flow occurs between the two Trees and the highest crown, similar to that of the 3 gunas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guna) or the primordial triangle/kamakala.

Kain

Napsteria

08-22-2007, 07:13 PM

So... did everyone stop digging in the Qliphoth?

What rutten dead stuff will show up when digging into those?

And is there a simple newbie way to approach one of them, just for kicks? Perhaps some portal I can AP through? What "kevlar suit" should I wear inside?

Ci Celli Ddu

08-22-2007, 07:31 PM

So... did everyone stop digging in the Qliphoth?

Im still working up to it, but it needs a grasp of qabbalics (an area I'm not particularly familiar with), otherwise it's just so much pointless imagery.

m1thr0s

08-22-2007, 07:49 PM

So... did everyone stop digging in the Qliphoth?
It's probably more a matter of obscurity. Qliphothic Magick just isn't very clear stuff...it's not like there is a lot of agreement as to what the term even means.

While it would seem prudent to think in terms of being very well protected going into this area of investigation, the whole idea of being powerfully shielded etc seems to run antithesis to what Qliphoth seems to be. If you really want results you are probably best off to go at it more or less unadorned.

Which seems kind of crazy on the face of it and that's sort of the problem. There aren't a lot of direct ways in that make a whole lot of sense.

Try it and see I guess...

m1thr0s

Anibis

08-22-2007, 08:07 PM

That's very interesting m1. The person whom I know who works most extensively and productively with the qliphoth swears against any sort of protection or shields or banishing and feels that the only way to deal with these entities is to approach them respectfully as a fellow... It sounds to me that we are talking about the antithesis of essence/principle when we are talking about the qliphoth. they seem to be perhaps pure multiplicity clustered around a given path or sphere... dunno, really. Sounds to me like you are suggesting the approach of the 'descent' that we see in the higher levels of the Necronomicon (Simon) working: emulating Inanna as she goes into the underworld: stripped of her various tools, and eventually torn apart in order to be re-born.... I suppose this is also the whole business of 'crossing the abyss'... which would make sense since it is through Daath that this whole Qliphotic tree is supposed to be accessed....
-Anibis

m1thr0s

08-23-2007, 01:29 AM

that's right...Inanna...seems to be the consumate example of how this must be done.

there are certain drugs that simulate this consciousness condition..."deliriants" in particular...but this is probably a whole other dimension / discussion.

aside from idle curiosity I have not met anybody for whom I thought...ah...here's a natural qliphoth-mage or whatever. I don't really feel that this path has very much to offer the vast majority of people, save perhaps the experience of getting devoured, or very nearly devoured. For what I have no idea...maybe just to validate the power that exists on that side of the Mind in general.

But if you already know that...what's the point? I know that if I shove my tongue into an electric outlet I'm going to have a very unpleasant experience. I don't feel like I need to validate that conclusion by performing the operation. To some extent I run into the same kind of problem with Qliphoth.

Still...as in the case of Inanna...there may be times when it happens to be your only viable option.

afterthought: the whole idea of extending an even-handed "fellowship" is actually quite brilliant...risky...but quite ingenious I think. here we enter into something oblique and uncertain but still intuitively correct. It's all your stuff really...and it all belongs to itself as well...yet still...whatever you can grasp is an extension of your own consciousness. Dealing with Qliphoth strikes me as very similar to dealing with Death itself in many ways. You're not going to intimidate it with a stick...you might as well just put the damn thing away cuz this will take a whole other way of thinking. The principle of control will rest upon the idea of unconditional equanimity...not acquiescence necessarily but certainly acceptance and parity. Tread lightly (and evenly) in the land of the shells...not like a tiger...more like the wind...

So that's intense...maybe that in itself is a lot of what it's really all about...

m1thr0s

Copuldaemon

08-27-2007, 01:13 PM

Hello all. To me on this; different paths lead to the same destination. This is what I get out of some threads across the scism and by pieces these together I know who's really doing what they say they are and who is not.

When I had started this thread erhrmm...I was interested in the subject but for reasons that interfered I never did but now I don't see any interest in it.

I know of one person who was working on a specific goal using this system and it seems to turned. I'm not saying this is a bad thing as a whole but it definately impotized my curiousity.

m1thr0s

08-27-2007, 03:40 PM

the whole idea of qliphoth seems to attract a lot of idle curiosity seekers. for me a lot has to do with priorities. qliphoth just hasn't been any kind of priority...there isn't anything about it that makes it vital or urgent on any level. I can't really imagine any situation that would really very much require it to have been mastered and in most cases I think it can be mastered through indirection.

I still hold out the possibility that there may be a lot more to it than I am aware of though...I just don't think it makes a very productive focus for most of us.

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

08-27-2007, 04:17 PM

I like the Qlippoth. But is it not essentially a version of the Kabbalah for 'Sinistros'? As Ive mentioned elsewhere today, I'm learning of the Kabbalah via Colin Low's A Depth of Beginning (http://satanicsingles.com/library/notes_on_Kaballah.pdf). If you brouse the first two or three chapters you'll see he explains the structure of the Tree of Life as representing Consciousness creating Matter via Force and Form. Would this then structurally not also be the case for The Qlippoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth#Crowley.2C_Regardie.2C_and_Heidrick)?

I'd be grateful if someone would at least use Mr Low's method of explanation (see the first few diagrams) and apply it to the Qlippoth Tree, because too much symbolism and correlations (I'm refering to what Ive been reading concerning the Qlippoth elsewhere) don't exactly clarify things.

m1thr0s

08-27-2007, 08:06 PM

the whole notion of a *qliphoth tree* is a very recent innovation and is not justified according to the original definition of qliphoth at all. It seems to be drawn from the greek notion of *antichton* - a kind of anti-earth realm - from what I can tell. qliphoth is not so organized as to represent a tree system in itself. It is more like the left-over bits from the whole process of creative manifestation. the idea is that the Tree comes into manifestation with a certain amount of violence and the vessels which held it, initially, could not contain it, so shattered into bits. The whole story really is a lot like the elder galaxies concept I referred to earlier and the resulting energy constitution would be a lot more like chaotic plasma of some kind...loosely associated to but no longer specifically corresponding to the Tree of Life itself.

This is a little like the idea of shards left over from one of Michelangelo's sculptures or something. The shards may be related to the original piece of stone used to produce the sculpture, but are not really directly related to the sculpture itself.

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

08-27-2007, 08:54 PM

Out of interest I’d thought I’d add some notes on the Qlippoth, taken from Michael W Ford’s Liber HVHI. To me the spheres (or 'shells' I should say) as they are presented here seem pretty clearly to be “sinister LHP” versions of the conventional Sephiroth (in other words: a 'Qabalah for Goths' :)):

Thaumiel Duality in God (= Kether)
Kether is the highest sphere of initiation, from a LHP perspective, the Black Adept should seek not to unify opposites but rather understand the strengths and weaknesses of the mind and body within this sphere. Know your limits of anger, love, compassion, aggresion and violence to control yourself at a more refined level.

Chaigidel Confusion of the Power of God (= Chokmah)
…filling the shell with form. As one works with Chaigidel the Black Adept essentially focuses to manifest creative energy through the sphere of Binah.

Sathariel Concealment of God (= Binah)
Herein is the initiatory quest of seeking to confront and overcome challenges…This sphere represents change in accordance with willed direction, thus a balanced state of self-mastery and thus elemental/ earth mastery.

Gamchicoth Devourers (= Chesed)
…represents change and continual motion…a challenge against stasis or non-change.

Golab Burning Bodies (= Geburah)
This is the Sphere of Power and the Strength of confrontation…Here we are able to see self-destruction to begin a new path or life; ending of something to give birth to something else.

Tagaririm Those who bellow Grief and Tears (= Tiphereth)
Useful in workings which require the knowledge of the earth, its darker, more hidden areas…This is the sphere of strength and creation, the Will of the sorcerer discovered and beginning to find means of form in the physical world, also symbolizing therein which may create inner change.

Harab Serapel Ravens of the Burning of God (= Netzach)
One may utilize this sphere of Venus - Netzach to control and command astral forms of shadow…to a specific goal, including dream workings, projection or Sabbat gatherings via astral plane…Harab Serapel are the Ravens of the Burning of God and relate to the mastery over weapons or tools used in the material world…Here one may see that within Venus, or love, is also death but unlimited possibility.

Samael The Desolation of God (= Hod)
Hod is perceived in traditional Qabalism as wherein the Will of the Absolute is controlled and manifest in the Adept. From a LHP perspective, the Black Adept ensorcells and manifests His or Her Will in the material and spiritual world, thus becoming…a God independently and separate from the natural order as it is commonly perceived…Use the Averse Qlippothic sphere of HOD to encircle your desire firstly as being a son of…Samael and how you can further stand independent in the world.

Gamaliel Polluted of God (= Yesod)
This is the Sphere of Sorcery becoming Flesh…where misshaped, distorted images mutate into results…the sphere of the Moon, it is darkness and the watery depths of the Demonic Feminine…The witch who seeks to go forth unto the Black Light of Samael must master darkness, thus working with Lilitu and sexual servitors should be mastered…

Nahemoth Whisperers (= Malkuth)
…the sphere of material manifestation, useful for Goetic Sorcery…This is the earth and its continual chaos upon it…The earth is the physical result of the Will of an Antichrist, or Beast who has attained self-mastery…

m1thr0s

08-27-2007, 09:58 PM

Ford is an idiot:
Kether is the highest sphere of initiation, from a LHP perspective, the Black Adept should seek not to unify opposites but rather understand the strengths and weaknesses of the mind and body within this sphere. Know your limits of anger, love, compassion, aggresion and violence to control yourself at a more refined level.does anybody ever bother to ask themselves what that crap actually means?

What exactly does he think the *balancing of opposites* is?

whatever...since it is apparently a game, I'll treat it as such...

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

08-27-2007, 11:20 PM

Ford is an idiot:
does anybody ever bother to ask themselves what that crap actually means?

What exactly does he think the *balancing of opposites* is?

And those were just the more lucid snippets. That's about as near to clarity as MWF gets. But yeah, that example also sums up a lot of the other ones. Normally Kether is balancing opposites, but on the LHP it's,,erm...balancing opposites...
Like I said, it's a Qabalah for Goths :lol

Ci Celli Ddu

08-28-2007, 12:14 AM

There's also this (http://www.gnostic-scriptorium.com/valentinusOrdealAbyss.asp) which discusses Kenneth Grant's Qlippoth Tree of Death as found in his Nightside of Eden

By the way I was thinking of getting a copy of Nightside to Eden soon. Has anybody here read it?

m1thr0s

08-28-2007, 12:40 AM

Normally Kether is balancing opposites, but on the LHP it's,,erm...balancing opposites...rofl...exactly.

well...it's a quandary I think. Instinctively there can be no such thing as an irrelevant dimension of either consciousness or existence, yet we seem to have so little to work with here...

seems to be yet another avenue of magickal science that is begging for better-than-average scrutiny...

m1thr0s

Napsteria

08-28-2007, 06:19 AM

I interpreted this part
"from a LHP perspective, the Black Adept should seek not to unify opposites"
as meaning that the LHP:er does not unify the opposites, which on the other hand the RHP:ers do.

Was I the only one to interpret it as such?

fr.novumorganum

08-28-2007, 11:53 AM

yes, it could be read that way, but does that make any practical sense?

m1thr0s

08-28-2007, 12:09 PM

yes, that's almost certainly what he was hoping to say...he just fails to say it with any authority or rationality backing it. He should have strictly avoided the language of "understanding" since it happens that the only outstanding "opposites" in the supernals are Binah (Understanding) and Chokmah (Wisdom) of which Binah is the electric Shakti principle and Chokmah the magnetic Shiva. If your goal is understanding then, by default, you are aspiring to the balancing of these two outstanding polar "opposites"...ie, the path to Wisdom is Understanding.

He probably realized his own quandary since if you are going to assert some sort of not-balancing of opposites at this particular location, then you are suggesting that the Black Adept should actively pursue a lack of understanding....

http://abrahadabra.com/images/doh.gif

m1thr0s

Napsteria

08-28-2007, 12:49 PM

m1thr0s

08-28-2007, 01:05 PM

From what I read of this description he meant more examining your range of emotions and gaining control over them, rather than "unify" them and just make yourself a vanilla person. How that relates to the shell of Kether, I don't know.yeah...your use of the term "vanilla person" pretty well tells it all though. If that's what you think the balancing of opposites is all about then of course, you need really do need to focus more on understanding...

So maybe it all works out in some bizarre sort of way...

Screw vanilla...chocolate is obviously much cooler...

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

08-28-2007, 02:21 PM

Personally I like Ford's work, mostly because it's very mucho sinistro and therefore tickles my fancy, and I admire his creative capacity. But it has to be said that he very often has problems communicating ideas in a well thought-out and rational manner, which is further compounded by poor diction - to the extent that often whole paragraphs resemble the writings of a foreigner who has learned an extensive vocabulary but missed out completely on syntax, which I guess is due to a lack of editing or proofing before going into print.

When it comes to the Tree of Death, it seems to me that this is presented by Ford and Grant as both a LHP 'alternative' to the Qabalah, and 'darkside' opposite to it. As far as being an antinomian alternative, where all you are in fact doing is working with the Qabalah under a different name for the sake of personal taste, fair enough. But as far as an 'opposite' goes, where the rationale is that in order to attain 'true mastery' one must master both the Tree of Life and the Tree of Death, well this is obviously where things get sticky, because the Tree of Life by itself covers Duality and thereby makes the Tree of Death redundant as an 'opposite'.

The Qlippoth on the Tree of Death are also represented as being the 'opposites' of the sephiroth. In this case 'Understanding' would no doubt become 'Misunderstanding', or in other words 'Failure to Understand'. This begs the question as to just what exactly is the goal of working with such a sphere. These 'failures' are also said to represent the processes that create 'Evil', or are that which comes into existence whenever the powers of the sephiroth are used wrongly, so what then are their practical use?

Then there's the Qlippoth as the 'Nine Keys To Hell (http://www.toreigninhell.com/fall/qlippoth.htm)', the infernal version of the 'Nine Keys To Creation'. Again, as an antinomian aesthetic alternative, that's fine by me, but just how this manifests itself on a practical and rational level...?
Has anyone ever elaborated on the practicalities?

fr.novumorganum

08-28-2007, 03:06 PM

For the reasons m1thr0s and CCD stated so well, I find it hard to think of the tree of death as an opposite. I like the concept of Nightside or nightshade tree better, implying these darker energies are already contained within ieach sephira...just as each sephira is male and female, each will be positive and negative, etc etc ( I think Alan Moore illustrated this better than anyone in Promethea).

I don't understand Ford's point at all; I don't see how one can work with these energies/sides of the self without integrating them.

m1thr0s

08-28-2007, 03:12 PM

...to the extent that often whole paragraphs resemble the writings of a foreigner who has learned an extensive vocabulary but missed out completely on syntax, which I guess is due to a lack of editing or proofing before going into print.that actually was my first thought...one should never edit one's own drafts prior to publication...

The Tree of Death and Qliphoth are not the same thing...at least not from any historical definition of things and I think that logistically this will always be a problem. It's too bad in a way since the intent is good from my perspective, but the logic (or lack thereof) condemns the whole thing to analytical purgatory. We'll only ever get the worst of both worlds so long as we are tying to fuse these two terms (and constructs) together...

It will burn itself out over time since it has nowhere to go. It is possible, however, that someone else will pick up the ball at some point and straighten the whole mess out. I think that instead of trying to sort out what is *anti* this or that...the proper qliphoth objective should be one of trying to sort out what is *residual* this or that...ie...what was there that could not bear its resultant *emanation* and why not... *anti*'s cancel each other out...qliphoth is an adjacent realm...not an *anti* one at all...

afterthought: the intriguing advantage that qliphoth may hold over the Tree of Life is that it is technically older than the Tree...some structure, now shattered, that once held the place of the Tree and is still there in some capacity or another. From an elemental standpoint, this is relevant...this is where this whole conversation can take us that might lead to anything useful. Why did it *shatter* and what does this really mean? We might say that the Flower of Life is the Qliphotic form of the Tree of Life for instance...it was clearly there first, yet seems to have *shattered* once the Tree became more popularly embraced. Historically, most religions have their origins in one or another forms of Shamanism...now *shattered*...but always with us in some way. I feel like this whole thing has a lot of potential but has thus far been left to the rhetorical divisiveness of clowns.

m1thr0s

Oblio

08-29-2007, 01:05 AM

I haven't given that much thought to this topic, but an impression struck me. I agree that Qliphoth are not anti, but adjacent - and it's a fascinating suggestion regarding *residuals*. For instance (with a slightly mundane example), understanding might be reflected in questioning or doubt. Questioning is necessary to fulfil understanding, but is let go upon achieving pure understanding. From a human stand point this sounds absurd, there is always another layer and understanding is never perfect, thus understanding does not readily appear to cancel out doubt (or at least, understanding entails acceptance of the fact of doubt). But from an omniscient perspective, the emanation of complete and pure understanding does not bear any vestiges of the process of doubt.

Just some thoughts, largely stream of consciousness, not sure if they're on track or what...

m1thr0s

08-29-2007, 01:39 AM

so then a specific doubt is the qliphotic vessel *shattered* through understanding? that's pretty cool if that's what you are saying...especially so since on some level, some element of this doubt will also always remain...we retain these doubts as a matter of checks and balances...*just in case*, essentially. Occasionally this practice even leads to additional refinements on the understanding itself...

It's possible that qliphoth is really a little like so-called *dark matter* and the closer we examine it the more we discover that it's everywhere, underscoring everything...just never foremost in our direct lines of sight...

m1thr0s

Oblio

08-29-2007, 08:15 AM

Absolutely. And really, the sephiroth are ideals - like Platonic forms you might say. At some level of abstraction there may be a pure form, but we are not generally privy to such, if it even can be said to exist outside of a particular cultural, social, personal matrix. To be relevant to us (who are pretty generally non-unified), there needs to be a vessel to approach that state from. Perhaps then, qliphoth are in actuality vessels, as opposed to the negatively construed shells?

m1thr0s

08-29-2007, 09:56 PM

well this is certainly intriguing, though perhaps not quite the same kind of *fun* the goths appear to be after...lol

In their defense, I believe there is a certain underscoring validity in Grant & Ford's desire to unleash this obscure dimension in Tree of Life technology, although I think that their methods are extremely makeshift and their thinking is generally muddled. Nevertheless, I believe they are responding against what they perceive as an undo amount of religiosity with respect to conventional qaballistic lore that threatens to become yet another mindless dogma if it continues unchecked or unchallenged. To the extent that this may be their underlying motivations, I would have to agree with them on this score.

I find this occurring all the time that people who are artistically intrigued with my own work (for instance) are nevertheless somewhat repulsed at having to contend - once again - with the Tree of Life itself, which in many cases they find oppressive and contrived, and indeed, both of these handicaps are a real enough concern to my way of thinking. I am fortunate in my own work that the Tetractys provides a means of *starting over* to a certain extent and I find that the Tree is a lot more palatable taken as a subset than it ever was as a principal focus in itself.

Anyway...I'm wandering off here a bit. I think that the general interest in qliphoth is warranted from a number of vantage points. It will be interesting to see what becomes of all of this as time progresses...

m1thr0s

Ci Celli Ddu

08-31-2007, 12:04 PM

I am fortunate in my own work that the Tetractys provides a means of *starting over* to a certain extent and I find that the Tree is a lot more palatable taken as a subset than it ever was as a principal focus in itself.

Even so, I'm pretty sure sooner or later someone will invert the Abrahadabra triangle and call it its 'dak side'.

Napsteria

08-31-2007, 12:35 PM

yeah...your use of the term "vanilla person" pretty well tells it all though. If that's what you think the balancing of opposites is all about then of course, you need really do need to focus more on understanding...
Did you mean "you" in the general form and not you as in me personally? If the latter, I'd be a bit surprised that you'd classify people's entire personality (not to mention existence!) based of the choice of one single word.

Anyway, what I wrote was what I perceived to be Ford's intent of what he wrote not totally clearly, and what I wrote was not my own views.

Now, I wonder why he put exploring the limits of ones current range of emotions in the shell of Kether?

Screw vanilla...chocolate is obviously much cooler...I'll take not one, or the other, but both and.. Not just yin, or yang, but both in a perfect balance resulting in the tastegasm of the century. :p

Napsteria

Anibis

08-31-2007, 12:48 PM

Even so, I'm pretty sure sooner or later someone will invert the Abrahadabra triangle and call it its 'dak side'.

Dak side magicians untie! I work with the inverted triad all the time... It does indeed resonate with the dakness, but then again it is automatically equilibrated by the liht magic of the upards triad. Anyone who has tried out the Twinstar/Abrahadabra on the hexagram (magen star) has experniced this. Ligt and dakness melded into a spitual hamony... All this and the secrete of elegunt proze!
-Anibis

Ci Celli Ddu

08-31-2007, 01:48 PM

Dak side magicians untie! I work with the inverted triad all the time... It does indeed resonate with the dakness, but then again it is automatically equilibrated by the liht magic of the upards triad. Anyone who has tried out the Twinstar/Abrahadabra on the hexagram (magen star) has experniced this. Ligt and dakness melded into a spitual hamony... All this and the secrete of elegunt proze!
-Anibis

:rofl:

Frater CaO

10-24-2007, 07:18 PM

Copuldaemon:
When you were about to "begin your Qlippothic meditations" where you using any particular book for that or how where you going about it?

Ci Celli Ddu:
Did you ever start your Qlippothic work or did you thrash that project?

Im going to order Liber HVHI now and see what it is about.
The Qlipphoth is certainly an intruiging subject, allthough it seems to contain a wide range of different definitions.
Like the Qlipphothic Tree and the Tree of Death. As stated somewhere in this thread earlier it is a fairly new concept which doesnt actually seem to quite fit with the original ideas about the Qlipphoth.
It seems that the whole purpose for the Qlipphothic Tree and/or the Tree of Death is for the sinister minded people to have a darker version of the ToL to work with or something.
Well, Im going to order the book now hopefully it has something usefull in it.

/HS!

Ci Celli Ddu

10-25-2007, 10:38 PM

Ci Celli Ddu:
Did you ever start your Qlippothic work or did you thrash that project?

I messed around with it a bit, as I like a bit of Theory as much as the next geek, I mean occultist, but in Practice I'm more into the practical. Much as I like and enjoy Ford's books, IMO they're more of a sinistro wankfest than actual practical guides to anything.

Templa

02-18-2008, 02:22 AM

Thought this book might interest you:

http://www.theajnaoffensive.com/ajnabound/images/cover.jpg
Ave!

Out soon will be the English version of Thomas Karlsson's book Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic.

There will be two editions of this book available to the public:
1. Standard hardback version.
$35 plus postage

2. Special edition of 72- handbound in dark brown goatskin with goetic sigil. Anyone wanting this version will get to chose which geotic demon/sigil that prefer. The available copies can be seen at the website. It is recommended to list alternates as this list is not updated hourly!
$125 plus postage.

Bear in mind that the special edition version will take longer to produce since they are being handbound in Italy, whilst the books are being printed in America.

The book is currently at the printer. A firm release date will be announced as soon as we have word, but the book is supposed to ship on Feb 19. For more information, visit http://www.ajnabound.com.

Any questions are best sent to:
info@ajnabound.com
or
ajna@theajnaoffensive.com

Heard that is suffers from the same syndrome as MWF's books, mostly being old news written with heaps upon heaps of gothic imagery, but at least this guy knows how to write, and has done a lot of research on the subject.
Will get back to you when I get it in the mail, if anyone's interested.

MythMath

02-18-2008, 02:35 AM

That's a great Tree image... :yes:

Copuldaemon

03-23-2008, 12:14 PM

http://forums.abrahadabra.com/images/icons/icon1.gif
Copuldaemon:
When you were about to "begin your Qlippothic meditations" where you using any particular book for that or how where you going about it?-

Greetings,
To be completely honest with you, I had paused about this for a very long time due to knowing that to purposefully enter the fruit of the dayside is quite different from entering the shadowed one.
THen through time, various initiations and so forth, I had soon learned that to enter the tree is just being aware that you're already in it and it's like a real subjective experience where as I had also found out that to travel up and down it, from left to right may not be in any kind of order but depending on what is needed to be worked on, there the demon of that shell and i shall have congress.
Also I had recently discovered the list of dead cells which is similar to understanding that these fruits are called "shells" from time to time.

rzk

08-09-2008, 05:18 AM

There is a qliphotic pathworking and some qliphotic rituals directed to the demons ruling the first four spheres of the qliphotic tree (Lilith, Gamaliel, Samael and A´Arab-Zaraq) in the book "Qabala, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic". You also find a throughout historical discussion of the qliphoth and descriptions of the qliphas.

http://www.theajnaoffensive.com/ajnabound/images/cover.jpg

Copuldaemon

08-10-2008, 07:37 PM

Hello RZK,
Not to be a cheeser but I was one of the first few who got the above mentioned book.

Neshamah

08-10-2008, 10:41 PM

Wow. I've read through all 7(?) Pages of this stuff and there's very little here that is truly useful. I'm not saying anything negative against anyone that has posted in this thread; I'm just commenting on the fact that the Qliphoth remain the most difficult aspect of the LHP, and yet it (as a system) should be the most simple and most approachable.

m1thr0s said something that I did find insightful:

that's right...Inanna...seems to be the consumate example of how this must be done.

there are certain drugs that simulate this consciousness condition..."deliriants" in particular...but this is probably a whole other dimension / discussion.

aside from idle curiosity I have not met anybody for whom I thought...ah...here's a natural qliphoth-mage or whatever. I don't really feel that this path has very much to offer the vast majority of people, save perhaps the experience of getting devoured, or very nearly devoured. For what I have no idea...maybe just to validate the power that exists on that side of the Mind in general.

But if you already know that...what's the point? I know that if I shove my tongue into an electric outlet I'm going to have a very unpleasant experience. I don't feel like I need to validate that conclusion by performing the operation. To some extent I run into the same kind of problem with Qliphoth.

Still...as in the case of Inanna...there may be times when it happens to be your only viable option.

The Inanna mythos is a remarkable metaphor for the one who chooses to work with the Qliphoth. Haven't you always been curious as to what motivated her to begin her journey to the Underworld in the first place? How long has it been since you read the story?

http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm

Did that help any? ;) Do you have any better idea about her motivation? Do you still believe that Inanna entered the Underworld through Da'ath?

I believe I've read nearly everything extant on the Qliphoth; and I have some observations that feel I need to share. But, I think I'll start another new thread, since this one has about run its course.

I'll start a new thread very soon (I still have the "Consciousness" thread and the New Tarot Magick thread -- so be patient :dull:). And, please look in on it from time to time.

Peace Profound.

Neshamah

NB: New thread titlle, "The Qliphoth as Personal Paths between the Shells."

sethur

08-11-2008, 03:20 AM

rzk

08-11-2008, 05:51 AM

Neshemah: The reason for that is simply that the Qliphoth more or less have been worked with within very few initiatory orders. Except for the Dragon Rouge and the Typhonian OTO, there is not much to talk about in the matters of the Qliphoth.

The books "Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic" and "Nightside of Eden" have during their respective periods of publishing been changing this somewhat, but the Qliphoth is still such an extreme system of initiation that it takes enormous effort to work with it by yourself if you only have some printed information to go on.

Neshamah

08-11-2008, 06:19 AM

I believe you are thinking of Sefer Yetsirah 1:4, which states:

Ten Sefirot of Nothingness
ten and not nine
ten and not eleven
Understand with Wisdom
Be Wise with Understanding
Examine with them
and probe with them
Make [each] thing stand on its essence
And make the Creator sit on His base.

The above quote is taken from Aryeh Kaplan's translation of the Gra version of the Book of Formation (Sefer Yetsirah).

Of course, there are other things to take into consideration when we attempt to determine how these Ten are arranged, since we aren't given a clear outline in any Kabbalistic (Qabalistic) book. But, that will have to wait for a new post in a new thread.

Peace Profound.

Neshamah

Neshamah

08-11-2008, 06:35 AM

rzk: You are right concerning your assessment that most Orders are frightened (or not prepared) to undertake a study of the Qliphoth. There's good reason to be frightened -- the Qliphoth are NOT for the faint of heart (or the armchair magician). However, I believe that studying the Qliphoth is absolutely necessary for anyone who wants truly to "Know Thyself."

More to follow...

Peace.

Neshamah

sethur

08-11-2008, 11:23 AM

"Qlippoth" covers a lot of ideas, developed over centuries:

The gap between spheres, don't get too literal about this and think of the paths on the Tree.
The shells - as each sphere is born, like a chicken, there are bits of eggshell left necessary for the chicken but not part of it.
The shards - when a sword is forges, tiny bits of hot, sharp metal go flying inthe forge.

Ideas of purity infuse the literature, but I regard them as a matter of curiosity and little more. Haven't got that curious yet.....

m1thr0s

08-11-2008, 11:54 AM

Wiki Link: Qliphoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth)

The Tree of Life as we have it today is a 2nd Generation construct, viewing the original Qliphotic Tree as the First Generation. The Galaxy we inhabit is a 2nd Generation galaxy and First Generation galaxies were incapable of sustaining organic life as we know it in our own world. This parallel is a direct one...it is not obtuse or confused in any way, so I think we need to abandon all ideas upholding Qliphoth as mere refuse of the Tree of Life as it finally emerged. Nor do I find any particular merit in those ideas assigning *evil* to Qliphoth per se...though I think it is reasonable to assign certain notions of Weakness to it, relative to our own requirements of Strength.

We are dealing more with essential evolutionary processes here I think so that the 2nd Generations would not have been possible without the First, even though they could not directly support our own existences. Yet the *stuff* of life they generated is in vast supply all over the universe and would seem to have provided the essential building blocks by which 2nd Generation systems finally emerged. It's not about good vs evil...it's more about matter vs consciousness in my view.

m1thr0s

rzk

08-11-2008, 12:07 PM

m1thr0s:
The doctrine you are proposing are but one of several ideas on how the qliphoth came to be. I guess what you are saying can be related to the idea of the qliphothic worlds as the worlds that were destroyed before this world came to be - and that they somehow still exist as fragments of worlds lost.

There are also other ideas, for example the idea that the qliphoth was created after the great "catastrophy" when mankind sided with the snake in the garden of eden.

.. Or that the Qliphoth was present even before God existed.
Just two other examples. The Qabalistic tradition is a rich one.

m1thr0s

08-11-2008, 02:03 PM

various version, sure...but qabbalah itself consistently proposes the Qliphoth as the forerunner of the Sepheroth and this has never been in doubt from a traditional standpoint. That it may have always existed is a reasonable speculation...that it has anything to do with Adam & Eve's fall from grace much less so since the Tree of Life coordinates with the creation of Adam, not his fall from grace.

m1thr0s

Neshamah

08-11-2008, 03:32 PM

Judging from the amount of interest shown in the three different threads I'm juggling right now, this one is by far the most popular. In that case, I'll work on this one first and work on the Tarot Magick thread second.

Look for a new thread, starting us over from "scratch," in just a few minutes.

Peace.

Neshamah

rzk

08-11-2008, 06:25 PM

m1thr0s:
First of all, we need to agree on a basic fact: there is no "the qabalistic doctrine". Qabalah is a very complex and multifaced esoteric tradition, we can find gnostic, jewish, christian, islamic, hermetic, some would say even greek systems of qabalah. Definitions on Qabalah are very hard to do.
We must just acknowledge it is a tradition which manifests in many different ways, there are loads and loads of different theological systems within it. And since this is, we find all kinds of ideas of the qliphoth.

Now quoting a thread on Lashtal.com, where I am basically showing a very very fragmentary part of Thomas Karlssons presentation of the Qliphoth in his book mentioned above.

"... the question of the qliphoth will get different (in a way) answers depending on the questions you ask and the answers you give:

What is the relation of qliphoth or “evil” to gods plan?

Positive evil
Negative evil
Necessary evil
Non necessary evil
Dualistic position to evil
Monistic position to evil
Evil as the material world
Personal evil
Unpersonal evil
Complementary evil

What is the root of evil?

Ain Sof
Binah
Geburah (Din)
Hod
Malkuth

How does evil act?

Separation
Intrusion
The Other
Multitude"

Interestingly, within the qabalistic tradition, we find it all.

m1thr0s

08-11-2008, 07:06 PM

I can't agree that there is no such thing as a qabbalistic doctrine. I find that argument to be too generalized to be defensible as it stands. I don't doubt for a moment that qabbalah is a complex compendium however and have never disputed that assertion.

In this immediate context, I am simply asserting that the oldest known sources of the principle of Qliphoth that we have on record all state that Qliphoth came first and then failed to bear the emanations of the Sepheroth, thus shattering into bits and pieces.

So I think that rather than enter into some never-ending debate on qabbalah itself (which is outside the scope of this immediate topic) it would be more useful if you were able to produce some evidence of some other qliphotic timeline (not following the above description) originating from some verifiable source. There may be some valid source I am unaware of but until I see this evidence, I would naturally be suspicious of its authenticity. I would probably not regard the opinions of random individuals as necessarily representing traditional qabbalistic principle. These opinions may even be correct, for that matter, but they would not class as historically accurate renditions of qabbalistic precepts as we have them.

strictly speaking, we are really discussing two generations of Sepheroth themselves, since Qliphoth refers only to the shattered remnants of the first (failed) set. So it is not entirely accurate to say that "qliphoth came first" as I said above...what actually came first was a set of sepheroth that could not bear the weight of all creation, for whatever reasons. This is what I find directly parallel to first generation galaxies as understood by modern science. I am not terribly concerned with when they failed exactly, though I don't think there is any useful purpose linking this to Adam's fall from grace. In that sense at least, I reject the idea that Qliphoth=Evil... I see no evidence to support this. It is much more likely that what we call Evil has come to cling to these remnants in some way, which in themselves are failed and fallen but not inherently Evil. They served the purpose of setting the universe in motion, so I think it's reckless to pin Evil on them in this way.

edit: you know, the lute is the forerunner of the modern guitar...this doesn't make lutes *evil*...I think we are talking about a natural evolutionary process here. "Senate" was the forerunner of modern Chess and by today's standards is a failed game of logic because the rules themselves are not logical. When things fail the test of time it doesn't make them Evil...the whole idea of trying to pin Evil on something other than ourselves is really kind of chickenshit in my view.

m1

Neshamah

08-11-2008, 11:44 PM

Sorry about the delay. I seem to have contracted the flu... :shitstorm:

See you tommorow, I hope.

Neshamah

m1thr0s

08-12-2008, 01:20 AM

good luck with that Neshama...

the whole notion that god would create a sepheroth that failed its designated purpose is pretty radical in itself. It is quite contrary to the whole notion of *god* to begin with, suggesting either that god is unexpectedly fallible in some way or else complicit in the creation of sub-standard systems, for reasons no one could ever be certain of I think. It could be (and has been) argued that god foresaw the necessity of a Division from day one, but this is a closed-loop rationale and still puts god in the planned obsolescence business...

In which case, god is hardly any different than nature itself which also designs organisms on-the-fly, many of which fail after a time, giving way to upgraded versions... this is a side-topic of course and perhaps should be dealt with at another time and place, but the whole idea is fairly startling and is kind of inescapable when contemplating Qliphoth.

I don't put much stock in creationism anyway, but I find it curious that the proponents of qabbalah would assert such a thing at all, unless it was always their intention to secede from the whole doctrine of creation anyway...

but again we are talking many different points of view and very probably just as many different kinds of motivations...

m1

Copuldaemon

08-14-2008, 11:56 AM

"Wow. I've read through all 7(?) Pages of this stuff and there's very little here that is truly useful. I'm not saying anything negative against anyone that has posted in this thread; I'm just commenting on the fact that the Qliphoth remain the most difficult aspect of the LHP, and yet it (as a system) should be the most simple and most approachable."-
Neshamah sorry if this thread wasn't useful for you as when I did started it some time back, it was based on me doing iniatory work with this system which in turn I was going to post what I had found there in. But I haven't done so and I am not planning on it but if you want to do it be my guest.
As for the endless debate on such a "mysterious" system, from an objective view, I don't see the problem. If the system has so many religious facets to it, this is only for the purpose of one using such archetypes and rules for the iniate so they won't trespass by the forces due to entering in a way that is foreign by belief to the enterer. That is to say, it's clearly a system for internal working, with various versions for a persons convience, so you must add the chaote crede "nothing is true" here as a rule of thumb.

m1thr0s

08-14-2008, 01:19 PM

I'm just commenting on the fact that the Qliphoth remain the most difficult aspect of the LHP, and yet it (as a system) should be the most simple and most approachable."well, if it is not *the most simple and the most approachable", it can only be because it remains the least adequately defined. Since you sort of abandoned the original direction of this thread some time ago I think it has developed a new one of its own accord, a more generalized discussion...not so useful to you if you have already made up your mind about Qliphoth, but perhaps useful to others who have not...

What makes you think Qliphoth is so simple? That might be a useful contribution all by itself!
I have never gone out of my way to work with Qliphoth personally and never really saw any need. I feel like it all gets integrated into anything else I might do anyway, but still don't feel like it is very well defined. So for me at least...exploring that definition is actually very useful...though I doubt it would likely change anything very much at all. I approach Qliphoth something like the Watchers in Sumerian mythos...like an ancient layer of Nature (and Consciousness) that needs to be integrated but not especially emphasized. Sort of like Dinosaurs I suppose...

m1

rzk

08-23-2008, 10:39 AM

m1thr0s wrote:
"I can't agree that there is no such thing as a qabbalistic doctrine. I find that argument to be too generalized to be defensible as it stands. I don't doubt for a moment that qabbalah is a complex compendium however and have never disputed that assertion. "

Then what is the qabalistical doctrine? At which stage of what the researchers call qabalah is it formulated?

m1thr0s wrote:
"In this immediate context, I am simply asserting that the oldest known sources of the principle of Qliphoth that we have on record all state that Qliphoth came first and then failed to bear the emanations of the Sepheroth, thus shattering into bits and pieces."

There are loads of other ideas on the qliphoth other than the one you are talking about, which I guess is the one best formulated by Isaac Ha-Cohen.

For instance we have Galya Raza. And we have the ideas of Shabbatai Swi, who insisted that Sitra Ahra existed before God.

Also, the ideas on the zimzum need not have the notion that the qliphoth came to be as a world, but that they are just parts of a stage of creation.

Just for starters.

ALSO.
Even if you have the idea of Qliphoth as a failed creation, somehow living on - this idea is most of the time connected to ideas on how it is evil.

m1thr0s

08-24-2008, 03:27 AM

Then what is the qabalistical doctrine? At which stage of what the researchers call qabalah is it formulated?qabbalistic doctrine is a patchwork quilt from its inception...I have no quarrel with this. All doctrines...no matter what they are or where they hail from have their variations and spin-offs. What we call a *doctrine* is really only that which has somehow managed to come into the mainstream of thought within a given time and place, generally centered in the works of prominent individuals who have impacted things more than others. Certain elements come to be classed as integral to certain doctrines but even these elements will almost always be disputed to varying degrees by some. The term *doctrine* does not imply an absolute truth or body of truth. It really only alludes to a significant consensus within a given philosophical or intellectual framework. I am partial to Lurianic Qabbalah, for instance and Lurianic *doctrine*varies from other schools of Qabbalistic thought. The fact that qabbalistic doctrine may be diverse and multi-faceted does not imply that no such doctrine(s) can be identified.

There are loads of other ideas on the qliphoth other than the one you are talking about, which I guess is the one best formulated by Isaac Ha-Cohen."loads of other ideas on the qliphoth"???
I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that, and simply tossing a few obscure names into the mix doesn't much change anything...

Don't make the mistake of trying to pit your point of view against me personally. You will fail at this I promise you. The thing to keep in mind here is that there are more than just you and me involved in this discussion and I have already expressed at least a partial willingness to consider other points of view on qliphoth itself. I have no reason at this point to regard any of these as especially *significant*, but this might still change.

What this topic sorely needs at this point is more careful resourcing for the benefit of the discussion itself. If you are prepared to compile some source materials that can be viewed independently by all, I would most certainly be willing to take a look. I would do it myself but for the moment this is not a major priority with me...it simply doesn't matter that much to me personally and I have no problem with the view of qliphoth I already adhere to...save that it is sketchy and not especially lucid, even to me. I am always open to worthy alternative perspectives but I do not roll over easily for evangelistic gibberish.

Wiki Link: Qliphoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth)
note: according to this definition, I am already at odds with the classical qabbalistic doctrine as outlined in the Zohar...that is...I dispute the notion that Qliphoth has anything to do with "Evil" per se...yet it may have something to do with the principle of Failure in things...so there can be parallels with what we call *evil* but I don't find any arguments in print that have managed to make this case convincingly...that qliphoth is the root cause of *evil* is a foolish argument from my perspective that will never be proved and in the meantime only serves to pin the blame of *evil* on something outside ourselves. Still, because the model of qliphoth that defines it as a failed remnant addresses the principle of failure itself (albeit indirectly), its usefulness seems to linger and may very well be the underscoring reason it has come to dominate other models. As I said to begin with, our physical bodies are built upon a second generation galactic matrix which means that on a subatomic level we are locked into this whole atomic lineage, we are literally the phoenix itself! I find that parallel intriguing since this is a matter of physics that stands by itself in any case and is not currently in dispute scientifically.

How that led up to me having to defend the most apparent model of qliphoth available I don't fully understand.
Sure...there may be other models of qliphoth...What the fuck hell else is new?

m1

rzk

08-24-2008, 08:37 AM

"qabbalistic doctrine is a patchwork quilt from its inception...I have no quarrel with this. All doctrines...no matter what they are or where they hail from have their variations and spin-offs. What we call a *doctrine* is really only that which has somehow managed to come into the mainstream of thought within a given time and place, generally centered in the works of prominent individuals who have impacted things more than others. Certain elements come to be classed as integral to certain doctrines but even these elements will almost always be disputed to varying degrees by some. The term *doctrine* does not imply an absolute truth or body of truth. It really only alludes to a significant consensus within a given philosophical or intellectual framework. I am partial to Lurianic Qabbalah, for instance and Lurianic *doctrine*varies from other schools of Qabbalistic thought. The fact that qabbalistic doctrine may be diverse and multi-faceted does not imply that no such doctrine(s) can be identified."

You did not answer my question, really. If I read you right what you are just saying is that there is a doctrine, and that you like Lurianic Qabalah. You don´t say what the qabalistical doctrine is.
.. And that is not strange, because it really is difficult to do so.

"What this topic sorely needs at this point is more careful resourcing for the benefit of the discussion itself. If you are prepared to compile some source materials that can be viewed independently by all"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi
there you have some information on Zevi. I think Scholem has written quite good things on his ideas, including the idea that the Sitra Ahra were first, before God.

Galya Raza or the Galia Raza is from the 16th Century. Classic Qabalistic text. I don´t think you would have any problems finding it.

"note: according to this definition, I am already at odds with the classical qabbalistic doctrine as outlined in the Zohar...that is...I dispute the notion that Qliphoth has anything to do with "Evil" per se...yet it may have something to do with the principle of Failure in things...so there can be parallels with what we call *evil* but I don't find any arguments in print that have managed to make this case convincingly...that qliphoth is the root cause of *evil* is a foolish argument from my perspective that will never be proved"

Well, this is as I see it one of my basic points. Even if one accepts the notion that qliphoth are parts of prior creations, your view on that is completely at odds with almost all the doctrines on this idea, on the question of evil just to begin with. If you read my post #74 (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showpost.php?p=37671&postcount=74). You will find a good number of ideas on the qliphoth, many of which are combined with the idea of qliphoth as parts of prior creations.

What do you mean with proved?

deviadah

08-24-2008, 10:02 AM

you know, the lute is the forerunner of the modern guitar...this doesn't make lutes *evil*...

:laugh:

Tree of Death vs. Tree of Life is not that interesting, to me... because I don't see much of a difference. Life equals death anyway, just as consistency equal change!

Examples of theodicy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy#Examples_of_theodicy)

For some reason the Qliphoth reminds me of the Phoenix, or calcination... to create change, re-birth (Pluto), some form of destructive force is needed. Some call it evil, I call it change!

:cool:

Edit: Thomas Karlsson is a suspect... i.e. I don't feel comfortable taking in his ideas or that of the Dragon Rouge.

m1thr0s

08-24-2008, 01:06 PM

You did not answer my question, really. If I read you right what you are just saying is that there is a doctrine, and that you like Lurianic Qabalah. You don´t say what the qabalistical doctrine is.no, you have not read me correctly at all. I have said numerous times now that qabbalistic doctrine is a *compendium*, a *patchwork quilt*, a collection of doctrines pooled together very much like the Tree of Life itself...or Tarot for that matter. To understand qabbalistic doctrine you have to go to many sources. Despite this, the doctrine of qliphoth is defined in the Zohar itself, probably the most reliable source of qabbalistic philosophy historically. There is nothing obscure about this...you could say the same thing of the Blues or Jazz scenes in America for instance...

To demand of anyone to define qabbalistic doctrine in total is absurd and I think you already know that. My point is simply that just because a combined doctrine may be nebulous with many facets and divisions, does not imply that no doctrine exists...this is similarly true of nearly all syncretic philosophies, including Christianity for that matter...

Even if one accepts the notion that qliphoth are parts of prior creations, your view on that is completely at odds with almost all the doctrines on this idea, on the question of evil just to begin with.this is not surprising to me at all...nearly all world religions attempt to portray *evil* as something somehow universal, when in fact *evil* is only identifiable as a cultural consensus and it varies a great deal from culture to culture. No one has ever satisfactorily established a single root source of *evil* because it can't be done.

m1

rzk

08-25-2008, 04:20 AM

no, you have not read me correctly at all. I have said numerous times now that qabbalistic doctrine is a *compendium*, a *patchwork quilt*, a collection of doctrines pooled together very much like the Tree of Life itself...or Tarot for that matter. To understand qabbalistic doctrine you have to go to many sources. Despite this, the doctrine of qliphoth is defined in the Zohar itself, probably the most reliable source of qabbalistic philosophy historically. There is nothing obscure about this...you could say the same thing of the Blues or Jazz scenes in America for instance...

Do I read you correctly when you say that the qabalistical doctrine is the Zohar? What about pre-zohar qabala? What about qabala-doctrine at odds with the Zohar?

this is not surprising to me at all...nearly all world religions attempt to portray *evil* as something somehow universal, when in fact *evil* is only identifiable as a cultural consensus and it varies a great deal from culture to culture. No one has ever satisfactorily established a single root source of *evil* because it can't be done.

Qabalah is not a "world-religion". It is a cluster of theological ideas and mystical teaching that has the aim of establishing contact between man and god through experience.
Thus you will find different explanations within this system. Qabalists most of the time seems to understand that what they are presenting as qabalah is not a "true doctrine" in any perfect sense.
To say that evil varies from culture to culture can be met with ideas such as for instance: "no, they are just living in more evil".

m1thr0s

08-25-2008, 04:48 AM

Do I read you correctly when you say that the qabalistical doctrine is the Zohar? What about pre-zohar qabala? What about qabala-doctrine at odds with the Zohar?pre-zohar?...yes of course...Sepher Yetzirah for instance or any other works that can be found linking to known qabbalistic doctrines either ancient or modern. The main problem with the more modern stuff is that we don't really know yet how it may play out over time so we just sort of have to estimate its qabbalistic import...as for things *at odds*...that sort of depends...not all mystical thought needs to be linked to qabbalah and many things at odds to qabbalistic thought simply are not any part of that body of doctrines...

Qabalah is not a "world-religion".uh-huh...but I wasn't addressing qabbalah alone in that comment but refering to the concept of *evil* on a wider scale...

To say that evil varies from culture to culture can be met with ideas such as for instance: "no, they are just living in more evil".sure I suppose...it's an idiotic argument though...my point is simply that *evil* doesn't exist outside of culture at all...

maybe you can think of some example that does but I doubt it.

m1

m1thr0s

08-25-2008, 05:16 AM

The Zohar itself is a compendium, the problem being that its author never truthfully cited his sources but made up some story about it originating at a much earlier date...from a manuscript never found or independently validated...

But it was clearly pooled from a number of available sources and amounts to a masterful synthesis in its own right...although from what exactly we are never given to know...

By now...at this moment in time...it ranks as the main body of work that would ordinarily be classed as Qabbalah...yet this only defines the Judaic...Western European thinkers outside of Judaism came to formulate their own variations on its themes and so now we have at least two major branches of qabbalistic philosophy to contend with...

and I dare say in the future there may be more split-offs yet to come...

m1

Neshamah

08-25-2008, 02:31 PM

I think Scholem has written quite good things on his ideas, including the idea that the Sitra Ahra were first, before God.

I believe I've read everything Scholem has written (except for a couple of impossible to find monographs and essays) and I've never seen this in any form in any of his books. If he did write this (and I highly doubt it) he is simply reporting the belief of some other Kabbalist; he would NOT give such a theory any credence.

Most of Scholem's writings focus on the consistent individuality of the Godhead. He believes, as I do, that the 'Sitra Achra' and the qliphoth themselves are all a part of God; the 'Sitra Achra' is the judgmental side of God -- since it is through judgment (God's or man's) that evil is defined. In any case, God is ONE, and dualism is an illusion.

As Scholem wrote in On the Kabbalah and Its Symbolism:

"Insofar as all the preceding sefiroth are encompassed in it and can exert a downward influence only through its mediation, the powers of mercy and of stern judgment are alternatively pre-ponderant in the Shekhinah, which as such is purely receptive and 'has nothing on its own.' But the power of stern judgment in God is the source of evil as a metaphysical reality, that is to say, evil is brought about by a hypertrophy of this power. But there are states of the world, in which the Shekhinah is dominated by the powers of stern judgment, some of which have issued from the sefirah of judgment , made themselves independent and invaded the Shekhinah from without. As the Zohar puts it: 'At times the Shekhinah tastes the other, bitter side, and then her face is dark.' It is no accident that an age-old moon symbolism should have risen to the surface in this connection. Seen under this aspect, the Shekhinah is the 'Tree of Death,' demonically cut off from the Tree of Life. While in most other contexts she is the merciful mother of Israel, she becomes at this stage the vehicle of the power of punishment and stern judgment. But here it must be stressed that these almost demonic aspects of the Shekhinah as the 'lower mother' do not yet appear in the 'upper mother,' the third sefirah, which, to be sure, is a demiurge (yetser bereshith), but in a positive sense, free from the pejorative shading attaching to the term in the old gnostic systems." page 107

The whole point of this quotation, and this post, is to remind everyone that the Kabbalah is a [I]mystical system, and as such is not quantifiable or measurable or easily definable. One cannot make a scientific textbook from the Bahir, the Sefer Yetsirah, or the Zohar; they just will not fit into that framework.

Just as no one would attempt to make the Chemical Wedding a textbook for organic chemistry, or make Jacob Boehme's work required reading for textiles, so we cannot make Kabbalistic writings any sort of textbook, either. They are meant to speak to humanity's mystical nature, truths which cannot be proven nor debated logically.

I know this isn't what everyone wants to hear, but the truth is quite often unpopular.

Peace, or not.

Neshamah