Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, et cetera

[Xner]

As a result of many years of study, thought, instrospection and personal revelations, I notice that many of the conclusions to which I've arrived are rather similar to those reached by others ages ago; strangely enough, many of them originating in the region of the Indian subcontinent.

Some comparisons:

Me - It has come to my attention that beneath the empirical, sensory world, we are all (plants, animals, inanimate objects) connected and, in fact, of the very same ilk, of the same body, be we terrestrial or not.

Advaita Vedanta - Monism, a sect characterized by the belief that the self cannot be differentiated from Brahman, the small from the great, the microcosm from the macrocosm, et cetera.

Me - Having not eaten flesh for over two years, I have a far greater sense of spirituality. I feel that in refusing to support a death industry for sustenance when more compassionate means are readily available, and for denying the brief dietary satisfaction to avoid what I consider to be too great a cost, I may not be changing the world beyond the borders of my Self, but I'm altering the Self and my Universe in rather grandiose manner out of compassion for the defenseless.

Ahimsa Vrata - The Vow of Noninjury (Jainism). Basically, a vow of respect for all life. A true Jain is a vegetarian, and some extreme adherents go into the world with a cloth covering the mouth, so that they will not inadvertently swallow any tiny insects in the air.

Me - It's quite clear to me that given the ultimate oneness of all existence, there must be a force that acts to create a paradigm of distinction.

Maya - The Illusory Veil of sensory reality in Hindu philosophy. Related to Advaita Vedanta as described above.

There are many more similarities between my philosophy and those of the Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, et cetera, but these are a few of the most important to me.

I have no interest in the Hindu gods, only Hindu philosophy. I believe that the subcontinent has spawned some great thinkers...thinkers whose ideas could benefit us all in many ways. Unfortunately, most Westerners who embrace these ideas tend to do it in an entirely wrong way, with more of a New Age approach, dancing in a circle with tie dye and bells, et cetera, and thus the meaning is lost.

Has any other member of this forum reached similar philosophical conclusions?

[Phosphoros]

You know I have! :p

It amuses me to think that the Indian Vedas (translation: knowledge, wisdom), being the oldest known spiritual discourses, also happen to be the ones I find most accurate and resonant with myself. We were so right, and then gradually became so wrong as we introduced too much thought (thus doubt and misjudgment) into the process.

"Over thinking, over analysing
Seperates the body from the mind"

[animalnine]

I have long felt that the most logical idea of an afterlife is reincarnation. I wouldn't call it my personal belief, as I honestly don't really care where I came from or where I'm going, the here and now is what counts, but it's an idea I've tinkered with for a while. If the "soul" or "spirit" is just life force, and life force is energy, then it makes sense that something must happen to it, and I think recycling is the most logical answer. I just don't see any rhyme or reason to have a heaven or a hell or some such thing.

[Phosphoros]

I have long felt that the most logical idea of an afterlife is reincarnation. I wouldn't call it my personal belief, as I honestly don't really care where I came from or where I'm going, the here and now is what counts, but it's an idea I've tinkered with for a while. If the "soul" or "spirit" is just life force, and life force is energy, then it makes sense that something must happen to it, and I think recycling is the most logical answer. I just don't see any rhyme or reason to have a heaven or a hell or some such thing.

But energy also has a tendancy to dissipate, does it not? What makes you think your soul will stay intact and enter a a new body?

[hayabusa]

Interesting philosophy, Xner.
I believe that the subcontinent has spawned some great thinkers...thinkers whose ideas could benefit us all in many ways. I believe you on that one. I also think that the more you study the world's religions, the more you find ideas and beliefs that have seemed to spawn from the subcontinent.
I think I have to share my thoughts on vegetarianism, however. I personally do not like vegetarianism. I feel we are all part of the web of life, and that we all support eachother. I am, however, conscious of the fact that it was once an animal, unlike most that just see it as food. I am thankful for the animal that gave its life so that I may sustain mine. I view it in a more, I guess, Native American way for lack of a better term. My problem with a lot of vegetarians is that they do not believe in using animal products of anykind, and often use products made of synthetic materials. These materials are produced in such a way that the factories that make them poison the air we all breath.
I completey respect your point of view, so don't take this wrong. It's just not the path for me.

[Ðanisty]

I think I have to share my thoughts on vegetarianism, however. I personally do not like vegetarianism. I feel we are all part of the web of life, and that we all support eachother. I am, however, conscious of the fact that it was once an animal, unlike most that just see it as food. I am thankful for the animal that gave its life so that I may sustain mine. I view it in a more, I guess, Native American way for lack of a better term. My problem with a lot of vegetarians is that they do not believe in using animal products of anykind, and often use products made of synthetic materials. These materials are produced in such a way that the factories that make them poison the air we all breath.
I completey respect your point of view, so don't take this wrong. It's just not the path for me.I also do not personally agree with vegetarianism. I'm comfortable with being part of the food chain. I don't have a problem with others doing it, but it's not the lifestyle for me. The only problem I have with it is the vegetarians and vegans that get preachy with me about it. I don't give them any shit about their diet/lifestyle and I expect the same in return.

[animalnine]

But energy also has a tendancy to dissipate, does it not? What makes you think your soul will stay intact and enter a a new body?

It doesn't disappear, it dissipates. It's still there, it just kind of breaks up. I don't know that my "soul" will stay intact and enter a new person, but perhaps go through a cosmic wringer and get all mooshed together with the energy of others. I do not claim my theory makes complete sense, nor do I believe it. It's just something I've thought about and considered.

[DocHolliday]

I also think that the more you study the world's religions, the more you find ideas and beliefs that have seemed to spawn from the subcontinent.

Only because the term "world's religions" excludes African and Meso-American faiths, as well as the bulk of European paganism which does not stem from the Indo-Aryan family (Germanic and Norse faiths are offshoots of the Indo-Aryan, but Celtic beliefs seem to have originated elsewhere, and Uro-Altic peoples are culturally and linguistically separate from the Indo-Aryan Europeans).

Yes, I have a chip on my shoulder. I react the same way whenever I see people talk about Vodun and Santeria in a manner that discounts their nature as religions.

On the subject of vegetarianism, I respect those who chose it in a manner that does not result in a holier-than-thou attitude. I personally choose not to follow a vegetarian or vegan diet, as I enjoy the carnivorous aspects of my person.

[Xner]

I personally do not like vegetarianism. I feel we are all part of the web of life, and that we all support eachother.

We are all part of the web of life, yes. And in surviving on plant materials, this doesn't remove me from the web of life at all. If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that eating flesh is natural for our species...and I agree. Whether or not it was biologically intended from the beginning is arguable, but it has certainly become the status quo. But I believe that as beings with the penchant for abstract thought and the capability of producing alternative methods, we have a choice. Vegetarianism is my choice.

Do note that vegetarianism wasn't the point of this thread...I was merely bringing up several points regarding the similarity between my path and Hindu and related paths. I was in no way proselytizing.

I've noticed that many people have an attitude toward vegetarianism similar to that which homophobes have toward homosexuals. "Just keep it away from me, and we're alright". Perhaps that's what prompts many vegs to get preachy?

Just a thought.

[hayabusa]

Doc quoteOnly because the term "world's religions" excludes African and Meso-American faiths, as well as the bulk of European paganism which does not stem from the Indo-Aryan family (Germanic and Norse faiths are offshoots of the Indo-Aryan, but Celtic beliefs seem to have originated elsewhere, and Uro-Altic peoples are culturally and linguistically separate from the Indo-Aryan Europeans).Is there a good book on these subjects? Every single mythology book I own seems to talk about the various mythologies after the fact. I would love to read one that explains their beginnings and similarities to others.
Or books, if there isn't a good one that covers most.

[Ðanisty]

Do note that vegetarianism wasn't the point of this thread...I was merely bringing up several points regarding the similarity between my path and Hindu and related paths. I was in no way proselytizing.By no means was I trying to accuse you of being preachy. What you said is fine...it doesn't bother me at all. I was referring to people who accuse meat-eaters of being uncaring, animal murderers.

I've noticed that many people have an attitude toward vegetarianism similar to that which homophobes have toward homosexuals. "Just keep it away from me, and we're alright". Perhaps that's what prompts many vegs to get preachy?As a vegetarian, I'm sure you have more experience with that problem than I do, so I'm going to take your word for it that it happens. It's kind of absurd though. What could possibly be offensive about eating plants? What is there to 'keep away'? I may not be a vegetarian, but I've eaten plenty of vegetarian dishes and most of it is quite good.

[Xner]

It's not the eating of plants that some people bash...it's the rejection of meat.
And yes, many vegetarian dishes are quite good! My favorite cuisine is that from India...lots to choose from at an Indian buffet. Veggie yakisoba's also quite nice.

[hayabusa]

I didn't want to seem as though I was bashing vegetarianism. It's just that most of the people I have met that are vegetarians are obnoxious about it. They make comments when I'm trying to eat a burger or call me a "carnivore". I have no problem with someone being a vegetarian as long as they have no problem with me being an omnivore.

[Magickal Sugar]

I was a vegan once, in the long ago when I was enabled with exclusive control of my pantry. Ah marriage and the abstraction that becomes subjective references like; "Me" and "I", unto the power of "Us" and "We". Is it any wonder divorce is so rampant, given we lose ourself at the; "I do!" Do what? *cough*

Anyhoots, when I became strict with my diet I noticed a very big difference in my energy level as well as my consciousness. Then I was compromised, by choice or alotment, depending on how one cares to see it, I amended the regimine and experienced a drop in energy and perception. (long story that, but it's not my thread! ;) )

With respect, I am a lay study of comparitive religions. And I am one that, via experience, can not commit to one thing for long. I grow accustomed, i.e. know the experience, and then move on. It's been my "nature" since I can recall. Which explains alot of my current sitch. (another thread).

Simply said; (And with all respect, repeating myself). Perhaps the mistake is profession.

Believing that there is a way, on the path of life. Perhaps that is what gives rise to a bloody history (and recounting) of history on every level. And perhaps, if one wishes to leave the main stream , they need first to abdicate the thinking that makes it so.

See, I call myself a luciferian witch. Because I like to make people think! And usually that entails sparking one's consideration of the mundane.

Before I sparked my fundy Baptist folks, who thought it was just a phase, when I called myself Witch, to their face. When I stood between my mom, who I , as well as my dad, would have defended physically, to the death, because she, in anger, approached a wise woman who was my guest in our home.

Thing is, if you live your life worried about what others think, I think you detract from your full potential. Fuck em', attitude is only temporary because death cures us all.

Be.


That, for me, is what my Goddess Luciferian Witch, see's today.

And I read your post because of the subject line. I hold great respect for the prophets of peace. I see the wisdom they shared as a guide post. I do not see living non-mainstream faith key word that, as any different than main. It's when we impart rules that things get complicated.

Ok I'll shut up and take another bite of pumpkin pie. *Hey, it is November eve, sort of... that's my excuse! ;)

[Xner]

It's just that most of the people I have met that are vegetarians are obnoxious about it.

Well, one thing that I think is necessary to understand is that evolving to a vegetarian lifestyle is no small feat. To do it "right", it requires quite a bit of discipline at first, especially if you live in an area that's not very vegetarian friendly. I've met countless people who, upon finding out I'm a vegetarian, tell me that they "used to be" vegetarian, or that they "tried that once". Most people that try it can't stick to it, due to a number of outside factors. It really is a pretty extreme lifestyle change and requires constant maintenance unless you grow and prepare all of your own food at home.

Also, for those that choose this lifestyle due to spiritual or moral reasons, they're already a step above the status quo. What I mean by this is, the average complacent person in modern times can talk and preach as much as they like about spiritual and moral standards, but how many of them are willing to actually do something about it? For the devoted vegetarian, they already have done something about it, and they genuinely feel that they're taking action to do the right thing. I know that such is my stance, and having not eaten flesh for well over two years, I can't fathom ever doing so again (extreme circumstances aside).

As far as others insulting you omnivores, there's certainly no excuse for that. To believe one is following a superior path seems to come naturally to the vegetarian (it comes naturally to pretty much anybody following any path to which they are devoted, really). But proselytizing and heckling is certainly not my style, and definitely doesn't fit in with my "Live and Let Live" approach. I am, however, rather vocal about it when the subject comes up, and I even touch on the subject in the book I'm currently writing, as for me, Luciferianism and vegetarianism together makes perfect sense.

So what you must understand about the vegetarian belief that they're more "righteous", cliquish heckling and childish insulting aside, is this: Vegetarians are not, by means of their diet, sanctioning the mistreatment and murder of our fellow animals in unfathomable numbers for the purpose of brief dietary satisfaction.

To analogize, if you were shopping and found two similar shirts hanging side by side, finding both of them appealing, but knowing that the one to your left was made by an overworked child in some foreign land under duress, while the other was made by a well-paid adult under suitable labor conditions, you would choose the latter, am I correct? I'm assuming so, since I'm guessing that the Luciferian ideal of justice is widespread among my fellow Luciferians. And I'm assuming that in doing so, you would feel a sense of "doing right", accompanied by some degree of disdain for the thoughtless person who snatches up the child-labor made shirt, despite the fact that the apparel making corporation's actions were made quite public on 60 Minutes, et cetera.

Anyway, enough rambling. Just to sum this all up, it's not as simple as "Hey, I'm better than you!"...but rather, what you see is a fairly natural response to the ego's belief that one is "doing right" while others are not.

I'm sure many Luciferians here look at non-Luciferians with some degree of pity for a number of reasons. It's the same principle in action.

[frater luciferi]

1. i agree with a lot of buddhist though, and the vedas. that said i am generally respectful of life and try not to get in the way of others freedom or libertys. I always carry two books in my backpack that i take everywhere for moments of contemplation- the dhammapadda and the kybalion.

Although i do still eat meat, i have cut a serious amount of meat out of my diet and enjoy vegetarian dishes a lot- am eating a veggie sammich from my favorite diner as we speak. Although i still eat tuna and chicken, I don't eat beef or anything else. And yes i have a lot of friends who are vegan and such, but for the most part i am such a bad cook or am not tremendously adept at eating right-which comes from long periods of time half-starving myself to buy gear and then having to put weight back on(im actually so used to being hungry i feel uncomfortable being full)that i don't think i could manage being vegetarian.

I love the taste of vegan food, and vegetarian food, and feel pretty healthy for the most part when I eat it. Still though i don't really feel any guilt eating dead animals. I guess i'd prefer to hunt deer as it is better for me or pheasant for birdflesh, because either got to at least live free. Its a part of nature and nature is a creul bitch most of the time.

a lot of my vegan friends are "granolas" ie fashion hippies/punks who plead for the cause of bambi but are also very classist(in the burgeois sense) which i find rather contradictary. They show me the videos, preach about how meat is murder and then share with me the deliciousness of the food.

I can deal with it, but i dont need to be sold on vegan food or at least vegetarianism. I drink soy milk on my granola fer breakfast. I don't eat greasy hamburgers or steaks. Hell all that grease will murder yer bodie- the lethargic lifestyle of modern man does not gell with our bodys design of storing fat- those cavemen got waaay more exercise then we do. So its more a matter of health for me vs. the morality of "murder".


Either way a diet that is mostly vegetarian with sparse consumption of meat is best- plus you won't have to try so hard to keep yer figure!

[hayabusa]

a lot of my vegan friends are "granolas" ie fashion hippies/punks who plead for the cause of bambi but are also very classist(in the burgeois sense) which i find rather contradictary. They show me the videos, preach about how meat is murder and then share with me the deliciousness of the food.Those are the types that refuse to wear leather and instead buy vinyl or naugahyde or pleather or whatever. Which are all synthetic. Which means they are made at factories that release all manner of toxins into the air. Which is also responsible for not just animal deaths but human as well.

[Xner]

And the beef industry (attached to the leather industry) isn't without its environmental harms. Just look at the South American rain forests that are being burned to the ground to make room for cow pastures...not to mention all the waste produced by the cows, et cetera.

[hayabusa]

And the beef industry (attached to the leather industry) isn't without its environmental harms. Just look at the South American rain forests that are being burned to the ground to make room for cow pastures...not to mention all the waste produced by the cows, et cetera.No shit...one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't scenarios...Except there are viable alternatives...

[Ðanisty]

I think, ideally, we would hunt for our food. I also think that's never going to happen.

[Phosphoros]

Agreed. If people wish to eat meat then yes, hunting would be the most idealistic form of obtaining it. But that would quickly devolve into hunting rabbits with tanks and the like.

[Ðanisty]

There are also too many people who like meat but, don't have the balls to kill it themselves.

[hayabusa]

I think, ideally, we would hunt for our food. I also think that's never going to happen.That's not entirely true...
In my little redneck community, people hunt all the time. My father, for instance, can bring home a couple of large does and have enough meat to last well into the summer. He saves an enormous amount of money that would be spent on beef and chicken and what not. And it's healthier, too.

[AppleJack]

I think, ideally, we would hunt for our food. I also think that's never going to happen.

I second that. If you can't kill it do not eat it.

[Ðanisty]

That's not entirely true...
In my little redneck community, people hunt all the time. My father, for instance, can bring home a couple of large does and have enough meat to last well into the summer. He saves an enormous amount of money that would be spent on beef and chicken and what not. And it's healthier, too.I didn't mean to imply that nobody hunted their own food. Lots of people do. I grew up in a little redneck community too. However, most people who eat meat, buy it at the grocery store and I don't think there's a way to ever completely change that.

[Magickal Sugar]

However, most people who eat meat, buy it at the grocery store and I don't think there's a way to ever completely change that.

Death & dinner, by proxy!
I love fillet mignon, but if I had to murder the cow to get a cut, it would remain a fond memory.

Which makes me think of the fur industry. I wonder how many consumers and the onslaught of celebrity "designers" that are popping up everywhere, would be wearing, or using fur in their clothing line, if they had to execute the warm fuzzies themselves so as to obtain the pelts! :eek:

Fur is dead.

And now your hands are blood red!
But hey, nice coat. Just ask that nekkid dead fox behind you how much they liked it first!:mad:

[Ðanisty]

Death & dinner, by proxy!
I love fillet mignon, but if I had to murder the cow to get a cut, it would remain a fond memory.

Which makes me think of the fur industry. I wonder how many consumers and the onslaught of celebrity "designers" that are popping up everywhere, would be wearing, or using fur in their clothing line, if they had to execute the warm fuzzies themselves so as to obtain the pelts! :eek:

Fur is dead.

And now your hands are blood red!
But hey, nice coat. Just ask that nekkid dead fox behind you how much they liked it first!:mad:

See, fur and leather don't bother me either. I wouldn't have a problem killing some rabbits for their fur. Given that, I wouldn't feel bad about wearing it...same as I don't feel bad about eating meat.

[hayabusa]

See, fur and leather don't bother me either. I wouldn't have a problem killing some rabbits for their fur. Given that, I wouldn't feel bad about wearing it...same as I don't feel bad about eating meat.Plus natural fur is a way better insulator than synthetic. Way better.

[animalnine]

I, too, like fur, leather, down, and meat.

[Tristram Shandy]

And the beef industry (attached to the leather industry) isn't without its environmental harms. Just look at the South American rain forests that are being burned to the ground to make room for cow pastures...not to mention all the waste produced by the cows, et cetera.
Nowadays they burn it to grow soy. OK, cattle eats it, but I simply had an itch to correct this.

I feel I don't have much to give to this thread because I have read most about Western religions.

I also think that the more you study the world's religions, the more you find ideas and beliefs that have seemed to spawn from the subcontinent.
It is difficult to find out where some abstract idea really originates. Not all old cultures were literate. And people move, trade, and ideas move along. We have the same problem with pasta, people disagree whether it was invented by Chinese or Arabs... ;) According to Wikipedia, Inuits and some Native Americans believed in reincarnation, too. Monism is found in Taoism, which is an old Chinese religion. And the same idea could be invented in many places when people have similar neurobiological religious experiences. (I'm not sayig that their origin is neurobiological, but they occur in brains like hearing something or thinking something.)

[Xner]

Nowadays they burn it to grow soy. OK, cattle eats it, but I simply had an itch to correct this.


Wow, you sure showed me.

[Tristram Shandy]

Wow, you sure showed me.
Do you mean that you want some links?

Corpwatch (http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11756)
MSNBC (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7907725/)
Google (http://www.google.fi/search?q=Amazon+%2B%22soy%22)


I originally read and remembered the story from the local newspaper. When I searched for links, I noticed that they overemphasized the importance of soy farms compared to local ranches. But the soy farms are definitely important.

I didn't write or mean that vegetarianism destroys rain forests. I noted that the farmers grow a lot of soy (most of soy?) for cattle.

[Xner]

Well, given that the boost in South American soy production is a method of curbing the Mad Cow scare by providing an alternative food source for food cows, that really only shows that the cattle industry is exceeding itself in its destructive, cash driven routine. It seems to support my case quite well.

Sorry for the long delayed reply...I'd forgotten about this thread. I lost interest when it became less of a discussion on Eastern philosophy and became more of a venue for omnivores to justify and explain their diets.

[Zaii]

I also do not personally agree with vegetarianism. I'm comfortable with being part of the food chain. I don't have a problem with others doing it, but it's not the lifestyle for me. The only problem I have with it is the vegetarians and vegans that get preachy with me about it. I don't give them any shit about their diet/lifestyle and I expect the same in return.

While I don't think it's right to give anyone unwarranted shit about their diet or lifestyle, this argument crops up all the time, and it's flawed.

Eating factory farmed meat, and in fact, procuring produce via mass agriculture are both extemely damaging to the environment and directly impact the world in a negative way. A vegan/vegetarian/organic/local/etc approach is one that's designed to minimize and in some cases be free from the negative effects of those decisions. Note that I didn't just say a vegan approach. There are many ways to deal with these problems.

So, it makes no sense to say "don't give me shit about what I do and I won't give you shit about what you do". That phrase makes perfect sense when your actions don't affect anyone besides yourself, but when an action does have negative consequences beyond our own (often panoptic, at least in view) existence, they have to be confronted and if necessary challenged.

Just some food for thought.

[Rin Daemoko]

I would love to try that kind of tofu made to look, smell, and taste like various kinds of meat. I understand the torment that factor-farm animals go through, and I don't like the idea of being part of that. However, if someone offers me a meal made with meat from such a farm, I will not refuse it because that would be rude and it would suggest that the one making the offer is somehow a bad person. Also, if I am in need of food, and that kind of meat is all that I can afford, I will not hesitate to buy, cook, and eat it. Perhaps that makes me ethically or willfully weak, perhaps not.

[Zaii]

I would love to try that kind of tofu made to look, smell, and taste like various kinds of meat. I understand the torment that factor-farm animals go through, and I don't like the idea of being part of that. However, if someone offers me a meal made with meat from such a farm, I will not refuse it because that would be rude and it would suggest that the one making the offer is somehow a bad person. Also, if I am in need of food, and that kind of meat is all that I can afford, I will not hesitate to buy, cook, and eat it. Perhaps that makes me ethically or willfully weak, perhaps not.

While I respect your decision, when in the same position I kindly explain that I don't eat meat, and thank them anyway, and eat what of the meal I can. If they ask why, I'm glad to elaborate. I don't think that it suggests anything about them or their cooking, but rather it's something in my life that's changed.

On a lighter note, fake meat is sort of a grab bag. Some of the brands and types you couldn't tell apart from real (the "chicken" most often), some of it is absolutely terrible, and some of it tastes great, but doesn't taste like meat.