The Elements

[fr.novumorganum]

I felt a thread about the five magickal elements (Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Spirit) could provide some great discussions, as both magickians and alchemists have alot to say about them.

I'd like this thread to be both about the theory and practice of working with the elements.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Ive heard that originally there was no Quintessence, and that Fire was the "Fourth Element" that unified Earth, Water and Air.

[Naomi]

Hmmm I use the Bardon model, not because it's Bardon but because I've tested it and it works, makes sense and seems to be reflected in many other systems everywhere I look.

As that system goes, Fire and Water are the two main elements, sort of like yin and yang, Air is the communicative principle between the two and Earth is the product of Fire and Water joining via Air. Akasha is the fifth element that surrounds and inhabits all.

These elements are not flame, liquid, dirt and other vulgar ideas of elements, but rather, primeval elements that form such intangible things as emotions, social structure as well as the things on the table of elements.

I also like the Asiatic system that includes wood and metal though...

[Anibis]

The way I understand the elements, Fire Water and Air correspond to 'positive, negative, and neutral' where air is a hybrid of fire and water. Earth is the conjunction of the whole, it's shell or body. It contains the other elements in the way that Malkuth contains all the Spheres. Also I believe the Greek presocratic philosophers (particularly Anaximander) had a scheme where the four principle properties of hot, cold, wet, and dry played out against one another (strife) in the body of the formless (aiperon), and produced Fire (hot and dry) Water (Cold and wet) Air (hot and wet) and Earth (cold and dry). These are also, solid, liquid, gas, and plasma, and as NC mentioned they are various tiers of the consciousness: The Will, the Imagination, the Intellect, and the Body, and their coordinative movement is Spirit. This is more or less how I understand it.
-Ibisis

[MythMath]

Elementary, my dear Watson...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Paget_holmes.png

[m1thr0s]

Ive heard that originally there was no Quintessence, and that Fire was the "Fourth Element" that unified Earth, Water and Air.this was certainly true of Druidic Alchemy and persists even today...mostly in certain witchcraft circles and such. The Platonic model (4 elements) were not adapted by everyone but they did rise up independantly from India, China, Greece and probably a few other places I can't think of at the moment. Yet even western Alchemy was hesitant to include fire as an actual element for a very long time. I think Logos might have posted something about this sometime back on another forum...maybe he'll jump into this one and refresh our memories...

I'm a hexagramaholic so there's actually two systems of elements that dominate my thinking...the 4 elemental system rooted in the binary bigrams and the 9 elemental system rooted in the ternary bigrams. The 5th (Spirit) element exists in both systems but is sort of behind the scene in the 4-elemental system and central in the 9. Moreover the Lo Shu Square is the elemental master table I lean on the most which houses the 9-elemental system.

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

What are the 9 elements in the 9 elemental system you work with m1thr0s?

all the best,
Oazaki.

[m1thr0s]

Four External: Fire, Air, Earth & Water
Four Internal: Lingam, Sun, Moon, Yoni
One Exceptional: Spirit

What distinguishes the "internal" is that they each carry a Jen (Man) line value, but otherwise parallel the 4 conventional, or external elements...

The exceptional carries 2 Jen lines and is the governing or dominant element in this system...

I'm still unresolved as to the best way to class them though...I understand their divisions mathematically but there remains a number of complex issues regarding their physical classifications...because the 4 "internals" carry a jen line value, they should class as being more "genetic" in scope and character but Sun & Moon still pose certain puzzles. I should also point out that I have borrowed these elemental classifications from Crowley's work but as usual he has not done a good job of referencing his own work so I have no idea where he found them...I believe they derive from Ayurvedic Alchemy. The weird thing is that I know they are correct, instinctively, but I still don't have an encyclopedic grasp of their properties...

So they are syncretic and still under development, conceptually...

m1thr0s

[Okazaki Castle]

Interesting formalization, touches on some of the stuff I've picked up from/about your work before. Will be investigating that set-up more myself now then. Seems useful/interesting... So thanks for that :) .

all the best,
Oazaki.