who is lucifer to you?

[frater luciferi]

so? you first.

[Ðanisty]

If I was to sum it up, I would say that Lucifer is my sensei. That doesn't cover everything, but I've found it the easiest way to explain it to 'outsiders'. Lucifer encompasses a lot of things...teacher, mentor, friend, father, brother, lover, etc.

[AppleJack]

I would have to say an ideal/archtype that I would like to acheive:cool:

[Xner]

Lucifer is the earthly manifestation of Sophia. The name means "light bearer", originally refering to the planet Venus, which was known to appear on the horizon just prior to dawn, due to its proximity to the Sun and its position relative to that of the Earth's. It was believed that the planet Venus, or Lucifer, ushered in the dawn.
As this suggests, Lucifer ushers in the light of Wisdom. He is the path by which greater Truths, the Truth beyond the sensory, can be known.

He is a god that demands no worship and does not seek adherents. He instead waits for adherents to come to him, as the worthy few often do.

[Phosphoros]

"Just" another archetype and ideal for me :p.

[Arcadios]

Just a question, Xner: If Lucifer is a manifestation of the (Aeon?) Sophia, why don't you seek out the source in stead of the symbol?

Having said that, Lucifer is a symbol to me. It's kind of weird, because when I hear about him and how he disregarded God and revealed the truth, I think of myself in similar situations, disregarding authority and telling people the truth.

[Xner]

Just a question, Xner: If Lucifer is a manifestation of the (Aeon?) Sophia, why don't you seek out the source in stead of the symbol?


Sophia and Lucifer are one and the same. I look at Lucifer as the door that must be opened in order to embark on the path. It is Lucifer's efforts that make the acquisition of Wisdom possible, therefore he, the earthly manifestation, is as important as Sophia, the Æon.

[DocHolliday]

I personally do not differentiate between Helel ben Shahar (Lucifer, son of the morning) and hasatan (the adversary). In fact, I consider the latter a title of the former.

Qabbalistically speaking, Lucifer is the father of Kain, and thus the spiritual progenitor of those who seek to tread a solitary path and exile themselves in a land of darkness, within which greatness is built (it was within the land of Nod that the first freat city was built).

Where does this leave me and how does it impact my approach to Lucifer? In the same manner as Kain, I live guided by the marginal principles of my covenant, but I understand that while I am a Sephardic Jew - Shemaryahu Yisrael - by Abraham, I am also a shade, a dark qabbalist - Azrael Qayin - by way of the adversary, Helel ben Shahar.

[frater luciferi]

lucifer to me is heylel shalem, the bright morning star and revealing entity behind watever "this" whole of the "all" is. I am not sure as to the "actual" name of this figure, although i believe that lucifer hides within the structure of differing systems of esoteric thought. He/she takes a lot of different forms, and sometimes it is a great while of personal struggle for me and/or anguish at some points of trying to dig through the layers, but it always seems to shine through eventually and the root of the power that is there is discovered.

[AppleJack]

Lucifer is the earthly manifestation of Sophia. The name means "light bearer", originally refering to the planet Venus, which was known to appear on the horizon just prior to dawn, due to its proximity to the Sun and its position relative to that of the Earth's. It was believed that the planet Venus, or Lucifer, ushered in the dawn.
As this suggests, Lucifer ushers in the light of Wisdom. He is the path by which greater Truths, the Truth beyond the sensory, can be known.

Mythology wise I see Lucifer/Sophia as a sort of yin/yang. Lucifer the dark side of Knowledge and Sophia as the Light side. The Demiurge representing material bondage. Satan/Set as representing chaos. I am still playing around with it a bit.

[Crucible]

I see Lucifer as being Haylel (Halel) and I follow his ideologies. My how much things change when you actually study up huh? I still do not see the total link with Samayael (Satan), but its all up to the person to make such distinctions.

[hayabusa]

To me, Lucifer is the greatest teacher who has been unfortunately demonized. The name of Lucifer has gotten such a bad rap that I haven't even told my girlfriend I consider myself a Luciferian. (In all fairness, I only recently came to the conclusion that I am a Luciferian, so I will tell her sometime.)
I remember mortifying my fundementalist christian father when I was younger. I asked him if God respected Lucifer for having the bravery to try to take his throne in heaven.(that was before I knew better) That got me a long lecture, needless to say. I always questioned him on things in the bible, and always got told the "truth", which I never found satisfactory.
I am indeed the black sheep of my family. I have always plowed my own path, only to look back and see others attempting to follow in my footsteps. I have emulated Lucifer without ever realizing it. So for that, I am eternally greatful to him.

[Ðanisty]

I asked him if God respected Lucifer for having the bravery to try to take his throne in heaven.(that was before I knew better) That got me a long lecture, needless to say. I always questioned him on things in the bible, and always got told the "truth", which I never found satisfactory.I also questioned my father. He was raised in a very religious family and he took theology in college before he changed his major to education. My family (thankfully) never forced religion on me and I grew up without it for the most part, but living in the Bible Belt, I did have lots of questions, most of which infuriated my father...lol. For me, it was the story of Cain and Abel. As far as I was concerned, Cain had done what God had asked of him. No matter how much dad tried to explain it, I could not understand why Cain was 'cursed.' I also feel that the tower of babel is a great example of why God is a dickhead.

[hayabusa]

I also feel that the tower of babel is a great example of why God is a dickhead.:DROFL:D That made my day.

[LasciviousXXX]

Lucifer to me is a life-force. An energy that is flowing through me as the willfull spirit guides my actions.

I guess you could call me a modern Luciferian as to me its more the ideals and the principles that I relate to and not so much the actual incarnation that is Lucifer.

XXX

[Magickal Sugar]

I identify with the female archetype, and so I see Lucifer as a Goddess. Manifest from the Earthly perspective as our bright sister planet Venus.
I came to Witchcraft after reading the book; "Witchcraft" by Dr. Leo Louis Martello. And, as many pagans will say, it felt as if I had come home. I was raised in a Baptist household and while the notion of the Christ was endearing, it broke my heart to realize he was no more real than Pinocchio or Mickey Mouse, and yet I also realized that the intention of the metaphor was to instill the qualities possessed of that mythological prince of peace, rather than a biography of an actual soul. However, no matter how much my parents wished it, Christianity never felt right. Then I discovered the craft and have walked the path of the ancients ever since.

I can't help but notice though how much power faith holds sway over the human circle. We war over it, exterminate generations of other faiths in the name of it, detonate ourselves in the name of it, and all the while profess the faith , of any name, to be the embodiment of a Deity representative of peace and love. How absurd, and yet how incredibly powerful that that which is manifest from the mind of mortals, can effect the living present and future of generations, be it in the name of mainstream or non, faiths.
It's slavery in a sense, to believe that we, the human condition, are somehow special in the eyes of that which created all around us. And I often wonder about the, "what if" scenario. What if the atheists, who subscribe to a faith in their own right to believe there is nothing super-natural that cares one wit about any of it , are correct? What if we are no different nor better than a buttercup, a bird or a beaver, when it comes to living and dying? What if it's all a matter of conscious resignation that we subscribe to believing something "out there" cares about any of it because we are scared of living alone amid all of this creation. Akin in some respect to the victim role with abandonment issues. And what if, after birth, we are solely responsible for living this life unencumbered by any watcher that cares about what we do with the time we have left?

I own the DVD, "Baraka", and while it is a true masterpiece of visual interpretation, it lends witness to the power of faith in many respects. I watch the whirling dervishes spin their dance of at onement, seeking to commune with the divine. I watch thousands of Muslims circle in prayer to a God many see as approving suicide bombings and terrorism, while others of the faith attest that is a heresy in itself. I witness thousands of catholics attend mass at St.Peters and subscribe to an ideal that all they need do is atone for their sins and be forgiven, so as to enter the gates of paradise when they die. Leaving in their wake the bloody history of the inquisition and crusades, as a standing monument of what blind violence can manifest from the seed of a faith. And I wonder if we are not all slaves to the notion that we need believe, so as to live. What power it is to apply rules and ritual to the simple art of being here.

And now that I've taken this thread completely off topic, I'll atone and do penance by consuming a hefty slice of Italian cream cheese cake. Bad Freedom, bad,bad! *smacks self liberally with slice_O_cake*

That'll teach me! http://www.emotihost.com/ver1/lol/6.gif

[hayabusa]

And now that I've taken this thread completely off topic, I'll atone and do penance by consuming a hefty slice of Italian cream cheese cake. Bad Freedom, bad,bad! *smacks self liberally with slice_O_cake* I'll take that penance over flagellation any day:D

[Alarum]

Lucifer is the moment of inspiration/realisation manifest. I see him/it as a force that infuses everything. I dont worship him as a deity, but I do worship myself as his Avatar. My body is his/its tool and my mind is his/its weapon. To Truly 'Know' something (in a philosophical sense) is to know Lucifer.
He is a force we can all access to further ourselves.

[Magickal Sugar]

Beautifully said. :)

[Shadow]

Too me Lucifer is a Complex Intelligence that has interacted with even more complex Intelligences. I say that because there are so many levels and dimensions to what I consider Lucifer. It is just not the knowledge, beauty, powers, and truth, of Lucifer that enticed me to (Luciferian Paradigm) but that all that Lucifer is, (and that alone is mind boggling) is just the very beginning of what is, and what can be.
Lucifer may also be described as " pure Information energy" probably encoded within our DNA intelligence, (and encoded all around us atom by atom) as well as the physical and spiritual aspects of that energy that manifest. Even in the bible Lucifer is present, but is mistaken for a god and erroneously worshipped as in the flood stories. One comes to Lucifer as a friend and an equal regardless of predisposition.
Shadow

[DocHolliday]

Hey, Shadow, would you mind using a darker font, or not messing with the colour at all? Your post is impossible to read.

[Ðanisty]

One comes to Lucifer as a friend and an equal regardless of predisposition.It's really the only way to come to Lucifer with any success. If you haven't got enough self-respect to consider yourself an equal, it's not likely he will have respect for you either.

[Lucifer's follower]

Lucifer is an Entity. He is many things in my eyes. Some people call him Satan, some don't. I believe he is his own Entity. i respect him greatly but i do not worship him.

[sarpesius]

This is a response to the original thread question.

Lucifer has nothing to do with Satan other than the specious connection made by Judeo-Christian authoritarians and by some modern Satanists.

Lucifer cannot represent chaos, as Satan is said to, because Lucifer brings knowledge, which is the enemy of chaos.

For some Satan seems to be a combination of the Greek god Hades and Loki the evil trickster god of the Nordics.

Lucifer is the same as the Greek titan Prometheus.

Prometheus brought fire to mankind, in defiance of the Zeus and the Olympian gods.

The Satan who brought Adam and Eve knowledge of Good and Evil was Lucifer.

This was not the same god who would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven.

I do not worship Lucifer. I am Lucifer, his avatar, and have been all my life.

I am not unique in this.

sarpesius

[Arcadios]

Saying that Lucifer may be something encoded in our DNA suggests, to me, that the concept is something that isn't supernatural, such as a god or an angel, but something natural. That is, everything that is encoded in our DNA comes from various other lifeforms that came before us, so true knowledge comes from nature itself.

[TLF]

Lucifer has nothing to do with Satan other than the specious connection made by Judeo-Christian authoritarians and by some modern Satanists.

Exactly! I don't know why the modern satanists are so keen in labelling themselves "luciferians", except if they found satanism to shallow - but Luciferianism really doesn't belong in the "Satanism Box". It's something completely different.

[Luciftias]

I wish I had become active on this forum a lot earlier! There are too many comments that I want to reply to. haha.

As far as considering yourself equal to Lucifer... I don't know about that. Who here has bestowed divine knowledge upon all of humanity? How about having acheived enlightenment? How about triumphing over death? If not, then you must be using a different definition of the word "equal" than I am - or more likely a different definition of "Lucifer." I don't consider myself equal to Lucifer. It would be like saying that I feel myself equal to the Buddha, Moses or Christ. Maybe in some abstract philosophical way the statement could be defended, but what about when it gets right down to the nitty-gritty? As far as I'm concerned "talking the talk" is good, but "walking the walk" is what it really comes down to. I'm not a Luciferian because I'm trying to pretend that I'm an immortal god of enlightenment. I'm a Luciferian because I'm a lover of Truth and seek it out as my overiding desire above all else. If I ever truely realize enlightenment and if I stop my body from aging or succumbing to illness and if I help others to also throw off their bonds of slavery, then perhaps I can consider myself to be Lucifer's peer, but not until then.

The idea of being an avatar of Lucifer is closer to how I think. I feel that we, each of us, are angels "fallen" to earth (i.e. incarnate in bodies of flesh) but not as punishment for rebellion against God. The old story doesn't make sense to me - that an entity in the direct prescence and in communion with divinity decided to overthrow or made a decision to come into direct conflict with that divinity? Makes more sense to me that these entities decided to leave the conscious prescence of divinity in order to eventually unite the various levels of being, from pure spirit to the physical. You can see this also in the story of Eve and Adam deciding to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, even though they knew that they would be have to leave Eden and to taste death. The philosopher's stone, the quintessence, is a unification of the body, soul and spirit (aka salt, sulphur and mercury.) This "Great Work" cannot be acheived without access to the physical. It's like the Gnostic "Hymn of the Pearl." Now me saying that we are all fallen angels is a symbolic way of expressing a concept. I don't necessarily mean this literally. There are several ways to express the same concept.

Luciftias

P.S. As far as choosing between cheesecake and a flogging, can't I have my cake and flogging too? :P

[Ðanisty]

As far as considering yourself equal to Lucifer... I don't know about that. Who here has bestowed divine knowledge upon all of humanity? How about having acheived enlightenment? How about triumphing over death? If not, then you must be using a different definition of the word "equal" than I am - or more likely a different definition of "Lucifer."I do think we define equal differently. Is Lucifer more accomplished than I am? Of course. Does Lucifer have more experience? Yup. I think our potential is equal though. He's just a lot closer to having reached that potential than I am.

[Amur]

Looking at how Christmas is celebrated at the birth of the Sun-Boy and how Christ is celebrated as the Sun-God in some places I have come to conclude that Lucifer and Christ is the same person in fact. Perhaps they are the different dawnings of the same Spiritual Sun. All I know is that ppl are pretty pissed off at something which came from Christianity and it's going to take a Satan(Christ) to clean it away in my own humble opinion.

[Luciftias]

Ok, that's kinda the response I expected. I wonder, though, how much does unfufilled potential really count? Of course, everyone has the potential to achieve greatness, but how many actually do? The whole concept of equality is something that people tend to just accept. I find it really strange, for instance, that the founding fathers of the USA wrote that all men being created equal is self-evident, considering that it was written in a time when slavery was accepted and women couldn't even vote. Are they referring to potential for greatness? That's really the only way that it makes any sense at all, because inequality abounds, and always will. Pick any field and compare yourself with others in it. Say athletics. That's a really easy example. Some people will simply never reach the level of ability of our top athletes, even if they try their best. If we were all athletes and in a forum discussing athletics, it would't be right to claim equality with someone that clearly has acheived a much higher level of athletic ability than yourself, even if you think yourself capable of it if you were to put forth more effort. Now it would be even more strange for you to claim equality with Hercules - a mythic figure who is an archetype of strength. I'm not trying to knock you or anyone down. I'm just trying to make the case that equality should be determined on achievement rather than potential. Potential is impossible to determine anyways, and besides, what good is potential if it is never real-ized/fufilled?

Luciftias

[Ðanisty]

Ok, that's kinda the response I expected. I wonder, though, how much does unfufilled potential really count? Of course, everyone has the potential to achieve greatness, but how many actually do? The whole concept of equality is something that people tend to just accept. I find it really strange, for instance, that the founding fathers of the USA wrote that all men being created equal is self-evident, considering that it was written in a time when slavery was accepted and women couldn't even vote. Are they referring to potential for greatness? That's really the only way that it makes any sense at all, because inequality abounds, and always will. Pick any field and compare yourself with others in it. Say athletics. That's a really easy example. Some people will simply never reach the level of ability of our top athletes, even if they try their best. If we were all athletes and in a forum discussing athletics, it would't be right to claim equality with someone that clearly has acheived a much higher level of athletic ability than yourself, even if you think yourself capable of it if you were to put forth more effort. Now it would be even more strange for you to claim equality with Hercules - a mythic figure who is an archetype of strength. I'm not trying to knock you or anyone down. I'm just trying to make the case that equality should be determined on achievement rather than potential. Potential is impossible to determine anyways, and besides, what good is potential if it is never real-ized/fufilled?

LuciftiasI never said everyone had the potential.

[Amur]

Everyone is a Christ, everyone is a Buddha, everyone are themselves, everyone are God, aummm. But ones potential/achievements are only from oneself to one Self. Which makes it pointless to compare people, as everyone has their own path unto them Self. That tree is more valuable than this tree. It makes all the same as the forest is going to burn down anyway. But from within the human perspective it's quite easy to make determinations on who is materially better at doing something.

If looking at matters from a material perspective, nothing in this world is equal. It would be very absurd if everyone or thing were equal. In fact nothing would work(in this world) if this was so, which means that there has to be somekind of diversity to get things to work. Not one tree is alike each other. Every seed has it's potential to grow out into a tree which in turn creates other trees and so on. Quite the fractal recursion when one really get into it. Might be fun for a few hundred lifetimes but eventually it will Ignite.

[Zifiriskenoxa]

Blinding white light that can burn.

[frater luciferi]

prometheus WAS a damn firestarter

[Copuldaemon]

mE..

[fr.novumorganum]

the light that comes from the will to say NO.

[Kain]

the light that comes from the will to say NO.Amazing reply fr.novumorganum, you hit the nail right on the head for me at least...

Kain

[fr.novumorganum]

thanks Kain: at a certain point one just realizes saying NO is perhaps the most affirmative thing one can do...

[Kain]

thanks Kain: at a certain point one just realizes saying NO is perhaps the most affirmative thing one can do...Indeed...this is an interesting and quite recurrent aspect of the usefulness of the Left Hand Path it seems.

Kain

[Kuroyagi]

One of my eyes.

[Little Billy]

so? you first.

Just another diety, IMO. And, like all Dieties, not to be trusted.

[Copuldaemon]

Okay, I've thought about this again in all seriousness and there's an account that I'd like to share here:

About way back in April, I got a visit from such one that refers to himself as Lucifer. I remember this because my step-pops (bless him) is a retarded drunk who'd leave stuff cooking on the stove while he passes out.
This particular morning he'd left some parts of the pig (that us Northerners DON'T eat) in rice until it was burning the pot. So you can imagine the awful smell that it'd sent through the place. Luckily I (as always) pulled the damned pot off of the stove and into the sink for cold water flushing. Again, the smell was unbeareable and I'm grateful I was smoking then because I don't think I could take it now.

Alright, so after awhile of trying to air the place out, I had gotten a visit from the one whom I'd call Astaroth (who's archetypically a woman with blonde hair) and then after her was other various goetian entities that I have worked with in the past. They had formed a circle before me and in the middle of the circle was this ominous shadow moving between each one. I couldn't make out its shape for it was flickery and fluid like that of a flame. It spoke through each goetian as if using them as a mask and had questioned why I was going to hurt my ex-wife. At that time I didn't know what the hell he was talking about but 2 months later, much conflict has happened that had led me to make a certain decision, one I've been pondering for years.
Of course at the time I was frustrated in not understanding what this spectacle was talking about and furiated of the intimidating words he was using admist the burning pig smell.

In all of this, I do consider that shadow to actually be my shadow-self so the question is who is Lucifer to me but then I'd ask who am I to Lucifer??

Another thing is that this also could be the Lucifuge.

[m1thr0s]

I am very undecided about this which is why I haven't posted anything. I like fr. novum's interpretation though...that makes sense to me...

It does go a little further than this however...Lucifer is also a standard of beauty I think, and high intelligence in general. It's not just about rebellion/authenticity with this standard...it's also about refinery and physical integrity etc...

*Charisma* is a word that comes to mind, but not in the more common sense...charisma as is one of the principle *forces* in physics (corresponding to the Strong Force, I think)...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~hohakkar/fabula/uploaded_images/lux_splash-760706.jpg

My favourite depiction of Lucifer is no doubt as the proprietor of the piano-bar Lux in Neil Gaiman's The Sandman.

Lucifer (DC Comics) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_%28DC_comics%29)

Lucifer is a deadly and Machiavellian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellianism) character, with no regard for human life or indeed anyone or anything but himself: a proud and vindictive fallen angel who has no qualms using powers second only to those of his father, Yahweh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh). In fact, during the fourth book of the Sandman series, Lucifer is described as having been the wisest, most beautiful and most powerful of all the angels in heaven. Despite his egotistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egotism) and narcissistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic) tendencies, he does follow something akin to a code of honor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor), refusing to lie (which he considers crass and undignified), insisting on paying back debts, and keeping his word.

[Copuldaemon]

the sandman, I remember that book.
Isn't the character that keanu plays in constantine supposed to be based off of a priest w/ cancer in that story?

[Ci Celli Ddu]

the sandman, I remember that book.
Isn't the character that keanu plays in constantine supposed to be based off of a priest w/ cancer in that story?

No, he's based on Hellblazer (http://www.insanerantings.com/hell/), though John Constantine and his ancestor Joanna Constantine do appear in the Sandman a couple of times

[Copuldaemon]

Yes, Hellblazer, I remember that one too. There was this guy names Sean who was a book slueth and comic book guy and he was into all that obscure comics, that's how I know about them but my thing was vigil's faust.
-Not to take the thread of subject-

[Okazaki Castle]

If trying to understand Lucifer, or any other godform or entity for that matter, why not simply invoke them and let them use your physical form for as long as it takes to come close to understanding them? Whilst you sit in the 'passenger seat' and observe...

Saves living the boring stages of life too. Leastways, that's how I use it...

Oh and yes, the Lucifer of the Sandman series, but especially as that character was continued in Mike Carey's 'Lucifer' series, is my personal favourite depiction of Lucifer too...

Oh and Kuroyagi: what's your other eye then?

all the best,
Oazaki.

[VenusSatanas]

My friend that is very much into the venus cult and the study of roman histories, tells me that he thinks that Lucifer is the son of the goddess Venus. If, indeed, he is described as being "the son of the morning star" it makes sense that he could be the "son of venus" as well.

Ozaki, Yes I totally agree on the idea you have. invoke the god and see where it leads you. This is the only way to have a true expereince. I have not invoked Venus but I have communed with her in the past year.

A year ago, Venus seemed like an empty goddess and a distant figure, an icon of history to me. Throughout all Ive been through, I have gained an understanding of her nature, and an understanding of what she represents. Venus is no longer just an image or ideal; her existence is real (to me).

Its the same thing with other beings'; once you understand thier nature by knowing them you can see how thier energy effects the world around you. Go for it.

[Little Billy]

If trying to understand Lucifer, or any other godform or entity for that matter, why not simply invoke them and let them use your physical form for as long as it takes to come close to understanding them? Whilst you sit in the 'passenger seat' and observe...



Har har!

Never trust ANY diety with your body.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Har har!

Never trust ANY diety with your body.

Invocation is an important factor in magic, Billy.

[Little Billy]

Invocation is an important factor in magic, Billy.

Yeah, well, looking at the Gods throughout history, I wouldn't trust any of them with a hamster's body, let alone the one I use.

Hell, I don't even PRAY, because you never know WHAT might be listening.

I'll do without the invocation bits, I think.

[MythMath]

Hell, I don't even PRAY, because you never know WHAT might be listening.
Amen, Brother, err...I mean Reverend... :p

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I'll do without the invocation bits, I think.

Sure, but saying things like "Never trust ANY diety with your body" on a forum for mages is like telling an Inuit that he shouldn't eat fish. :p

At least we know what it is that we are doing when we invoke a deity.

[m1thr0s]

some would go so far as to argue: "there is no god but man"...
superstition strikes where you least expect it...oftentimes those who utilize the gods are much less superstitious than those whose stand idly by and snicker at things they do not comprehend to begin with...

things are not always as they seem.
you can't use the people who only parrot these things as the standard by which these things are to be judged.

m1thr0s

[Little Billy]

Sure, but saying things like "Never trust ANY diety with your body" on a forum for mages is like telling an Inuit that he shouldn't eat fish. :p

At least we know what it is that we are doing when we invoke a deity.

Well, don't come crying to me when one of these dieties uses your body like an old dishrag, and you wake up with strange growths on your neck & radiation burns on your face and puncture wounds all over your torso.

[Little Billy]

some would go so far as to argue: "there is no god but man"...
superstition strikes where you least expect it...oftentimes those who utilize the gods are much less superstitious than those whose stand idly by and snicker at things they do not comprehend to begin with...

things are not always as they seem.
you can't use the people who only parrot these things as the standard by which these things are to be judged.

m1thr0s

So who is snickering? Personally, I find the very idea of having somebody else run amok with my body to be pretty horrifying.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Well, don't come crying to me when one of these dieties uses your body like an old dishrag, and you wake up with strange growths on your neck & radiation burns on your face and puncture wounds all over your torso.

I won't, because that won't happen. I am my own deity. All deities are me. Invocation is like putting on the right clothes for the right occasion. The clothes may inspire a certain side of your character to become prominent, but they don't start thinking for you. ;)

[Little Billy]

I won't, because that won't happen. I am my own deity. All deities are me. Invocation is like putting on the right clothes for the right occasion. The clothes may inspire a certain side of your character to become prominent, but they don't start thinking for you. ;)


Or so they say.

I usually just walk around nekkid.

You can't be too careful.

[m1thr0s]

So who is snickering? Personally, I find the very idea of having somebody else run amok with my body to be pretty horrifying.yeah...so would I...so would any intelligent person I think. what you are alluding to most applies to methods of "possession" which do occasionally get out of hand...but nowhere near as often as you might think. there are areas of the world that still use mediums and some of these systems exact a heavy toll on the medium etc. as with anything, you have to shop around before you buy into something...not all methods are as dangerous or as costly as the next. not all systems of magick utilize possession...some, in fact, strictly forbid it...yet still the assumption of godforms is possible through more controlled means not necessitating possession. there's a lot of different ways to treat a fever as well...slathering yourself in leeches may not be your preferred approach...

m1thr0s

[Little Billy]

yeah...so would I...so would any intelligent person I think. what you are alluding to most applies to methods of "possession" which do occasionally get out of hand...but nowhere near as often as you might think. there are areas of the world that still use mediums and some of these systems exact a heavy toll on the medium etc. as with anything, you have to shop around before you buy into something...not all methods are as dangerous or as costly as the next. not all systems of magick utilize possession...some, in fact, strictly forbid it...yet still the assumption of godforms is possible through more controlled means not necessitating possession. there's a lot of different ways to treat a fever as well...slathering yourself in leeches may not be your preferred approach...

m1thr0s

Sure...but how do you know that the thing you're invoking is the thing that actually shows up?

And how do you know that it WON'T take over completely, and/or not go away when you want it to?

[MythMath]

slathering yourself in leeches may not be your preferred approach...
ughhhmmmmmm...leeches...

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/HOMERDROOL.jpg

[m1thr0s]

Sure...but how do you know that the thing you're invoking is the thing that actually shows up?

And how do you know that it WON'T take over completely, and/or not go away when you want it to?How do you know anything? You study a thing, you learn it intimately, you test it...same thing here. There are different ideas as to how to approach demons, godforms, spirits etc...but nearly all of them will at least recommend learning how to defend yourself first. By in large, if you have no real business with a form you shouldn't play around with it. "Toying" with these various entities, archetypes, whatever, is typically the most dangerous game of all. But there are times you may want or need to tap their intelligence or other attributes according to some work you are engaged in. Just because some books on the shelf may be marked as potentially "dangerous" doesn't mean you shouldn't read them if you need them...

Personally I only regard entities as real that I can identify internally. That doesn't mean they may not be able to manifest according to the collective consciousness or some other mechanism. It only means that if it doesn't exist internally, I don't consider it to have any real permanence and I won't have much of anything to do with it other than defense. This works for me...it isn't everybody's way necessarily.

I can identify nearly all nature-based entities internally, but "Jesus" is not among them for instance. Yet even "Jesus" can be identified genetically, therefor I can identify the man called Jesus...I can find no god called Jesus within Inner Space...therefor this god has no value to me. If it should manifest itself in the same space as me, I would seek primarily to dismantle it. If need be, I would siphen off its own energy to destroy it. In various trance-states this has in fact occured at least once that I can recall (it's obviously a popular consentual archetype)...it has always been a surprizingly short-lived contest actually...I anticipated much worse...it all depends on how well armed you are against such things I think. Subconscious lodgings...crap rooted in fear and social imprinting don't stand the light of day very well. But you do need to know how to invoke that light...and most people do not. Therefor these things continue to have power over their lives.

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

I've been here reading about these
matters for several months now...

As some of you know, I've not actually
experienced such things directly (yet)...

I've been absorbing quite alot of information based
on the many 'links' that have been presented here...

But I haven't asked any direct questions regarding things such
as 'arming oneself to defend against an unfriendly entity', etc...

It's facinating to read all of you discuss
these things in such a matter-of-fact way...

It sometimes seems as if you're playing a video game... :rolleyes:

[Absolutely no offence nintended...]
___________________________

So, some questions from the uninitiated:
(please refer me to texts if you feel I wouldn't be able
to comprehend the answers without more knowledge)

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity
that you challenge is stronger than you...?

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?
________________________

That oughta get my ball rollin'...

Thanks,

MM

[Copuldaemon]

I won't, because that won't happen. I am my own deity. All deities are me. Invocation is like putting on the right clothes for the right occasion. The clothes may inspire a certain side of your character to become prominent, but they don't start thinking for you. ;)

I like that

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Sure...but how do you know that the thing you're invoking is the thing that actually shows up?

And how do you know that it WON'T take over completely, and/or not go away when you want it to?

http://www.drunkenhero.com/pauldanielsgothbig.jpg

To quote Paul Daniels: "That's magic!"

[m1thr0s]

those are all great questions MM and deserve an answer...but I see that from about post #50 to the present we have completely left the original topic started here. These should all be moved to a new Topic called Evoking Dangerous Entities or something like that...wanna give it a go?

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

those are all great questions MM and deserve an answer...but I see that from about post #50 to the present we have completely left the original topic started here. These should all be moved to a new Topic called Evoking Dangerous Entities or something like that...wanna give it a go?

m1thr0s

Evoking or Invoking? Is there a term for both?

[m1thr0s]

Summoning works pretty good I think...

m1thr0s

[MythMath]

Okay, I started a new thread, Summoning Entities here:

http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?p=11350#post11350

I left off the 'dangerous' because I'd like to learn about
the contrasts, as well as how each is 'recognized'...

MM
________________________

Wasn't sure where to place the thread,
so feel free to relocate it if it's warranted...