Magick and Famous People

[Okazaki Castle]

Magick is prbbly used by famous people throughout the world. Just look at L Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology. But a more interesting question I feel is: are famous people used by magick? And if so, which ones and in what ways?

I think that this two-way causational process is described well in Aristotle's Analytics, and referenced by Nietzsche when he said: "If you gaze for too long into the Abyss the Abyss gazes also into you". Or, work with causation and it, in turn, also works on you.

I contend it's fairly easy and obvious to tell which entities are working with which famous people. It's simply a question of charatcer and likeness. But also, sometimes, they make things nice and obvious. And such instances are always especially pleasing...

One such instance is Bael:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/Bael.jpg

Who looks like Prince Charles:

http://www.alaskareport.com/images2/prince_charles.jpg

I like it when Goetics show off like that... Funnily enough, the 66 connection is there also:

The First Principal Spirit is a King ruling in the East, called Bael. He maketh thee to go Invisible. He ruleth over 66 Legions of Infernal Spirits.

As in 1066, England's Foundation Chart. Now then. What happens when you run invisibility in reverse? Don't know, but I think I will find out sooner or later...

More examples to be forthcoming as they come to me. Also, feel free to contribute whoever wants to or has some neat observations to communicate...

all the best all,
Oazaki.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

As in 1066, England's Foundation Chart.

There is no such thing. 1066 is the date of the Norman takeover of England, a kingdom which was formed in the 10th century, not the 11th.

[Naomi]

Ooh good thread. I've been wanting to get something like this started for a while:

Iktomi shows off in several popular media formats. Iktomi literally means 'spider' in the Lakota language and is considered to be in god form, the lord of technology of all sorts, from the first language to telephones and the world wide web. He is often depicted in stories using malicious tricks which end up hurting himself or others. This is how native americans taught ethics and wisdom to the younger generation.

I have seen him in hundreds of different places in modern culture, here are two of the most prominent, first as the evil Dr. Robotnik in Sonic the Hedgehog, this guy does everything 'bad' Iktomi does, he misuses technology by turning innocent creatures into robots and polluting the enviroment. This ill-dignified Iktomi is a warning message to all scientists to be really careful with technology. Of note is the typical round body of a spider and the traditional colors of Iktomi, red, yellow, white and red, and the circles around his eyes. (Iktomi wears warpaint of black circles around his eyes....nerdglasses anyone?)
http://www.thetengu.com/Abrahadabraforumsposts/DocOck.jpg

O those pics of Prince Charles and Bael were HILARIOUS :laugh:

[Okazaki Castle]

There is no such thing. 1066 is the date of the Norman takeover of England, a kingdom which was formed in the 10th century, not the 11th.

Hmm, well, I'm not too up on my Norman history, but maybe you could give me some details? :)

On the 1066 date, that's simply what I pick up as the dominant in mass mind and popular history. So it's got a purpose to serve in terms of public image and motion I think - much like Prince Charles. And whilst I don't like a lot of the world's royalty, saving Monnaco's, Prince Charles seems alright: principled (tries to be), high sex drive (natal chart says so), into good architecture, tries. Just a bit inefficient and weak, but that's my relationship with my father all over again, so I don't criticize if their hearts in the right place and they try... As for his Bael credentials, well, Diana connected to the French Secret Service, and so Laurent of Perrier, and so maybe a few things can be deduced by others which I'd say were already known to me...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Charles bears the title 'Prince of Wales', a title first won by Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywelyn_ap_Gruffydd) in the
Treaty of Montgommery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Montgomery) in 1267. After the untimely death of the only true prince of Wales the title was taken by Edward I and given to his heir. Since then it has been the title of the heir apparent to the English Crown, (although it was reclaimed for a while by Owain Glyndŵr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owain_Glyndwr)) and as such is cursed by the Welsh.
Here are the unrightful Princes of Wales, the majority of whom did not meet a happy fate:
Edward II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_II_of_England)
The Black Prince (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward%2C_the_Black_Prince)
Richard II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_II_of_England)
Henry V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_V_of_England)
Edward of Westminster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_of_Westminster)
Edward V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_V_of_England)
Edward of Middleham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_of_Middleham)
Arthur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur%2C_Prince_of_Wales)
Henry VIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England)
Edward VI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VI_of_England)
Henry Frederick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Frederick_Stuart)
Charles I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_England)
George II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_II_of_Great_Britain)
Frederick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick%2C_Prince_of_Wales)
George III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III_of_the_United_Kingdom)
George IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_IV_of_the_United_Kingdom)
Edward VII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VII_of_the_United_Kingdom)
George V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_V_of_the_United_Kingdom)
Edward VIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII_of_the_United_Kingdom)
Charles Windsor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles%2C_Prince_of_Wales)

[Okazaki Castle]

Ah, I see. Could we then make a deal on this one, with you as the representative of Welsh interests, including the Spirits and so on associated with the curse and me as Charles' representative. I think he's alright, ethically sound, and I get a good vibe from him. Also, more importantly in this set of contracts, he is useful to my purposes. As such, can he be left to assume the Crown of England, and his family preserved and kept healthy, on the proviso that Wales be given its full independence to do with as they like?

Bael form contracted for certain things with me, and I like to fulfill my side of deals. Prince Charles connects to MI6 who I have had some dealings with and want to use them for certain things, and also generally they're quite cool and have a good vibe (former girlfriend was in that organisation, one of the ones I was very close to). In many ways Prince Charles is a useful key to them and the wider decoding of the whole England question, and so wider issues also, including the British bases in Cyprus which I am personally under contract to remove, and would rather do so relatively peacefully, because I generally tend to like and get on with British military personnel.

I also think you are in a position to talk for / represent the Spirit of Wales, the Land...

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

That Charles will never become king was foretold before I was born. The matter is not in my hands. The Monarchy has had plenty of time to make their own pacts, such as the pact that created The Order of the Garter (see Murray's The God of the Witches (http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:VeGcAANgzwkJ:athenaeum.asiya.org/Murray_God_of_the_Witches.pdf+god+of+the+witches&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4))

The Order of the Garter, the highest order of British chivalry, was founded in 1348 by King Edward III under most interesting circumstances. The story reads as follows:
"King Edward III was holding a great dance at Windsor Castle and many noble lords and ladies were in attendance. During this dance, the Countess of Salisbury (there is debate as to who the lady actually was; some say it was Joan Plantagenet, the Maid of Kent; others have proposed Queen Phillipa of Spain. The author is of the opinion that Joan is the correct one) found that her garter had slipped off her leg and was laying upon the floor. Seeing her embarassment, the King picked up her garter and buckled it onto his own leg, saying the immortal words, "Honi soit qui mal y pense!", meaning 'Evil to him who evil thinks of it!'. The King proclaimed that he would make this garter the most honoured on ever worn, and so founded the Order of the Garter."
Now then, to the initates of the British witch-cult, there are a few glaring points that bear further study. At this time, there was absolutely no reason for a woman at court to be embarassed by the mere losing of a garter (and it should be clarified that a garter is meant, not a garter belt). The prudishness of Victorian times was centuries away, and indeed, even up to the reign of King George IV (1820-1830) men and women swam naked together without shame; it is therefore unlikely that a mere slipped garter would have been worthy of a great deal of fuss. Now, Craft initiates are familiar with the symbolism of a garter within the Craft itself. A high priestess of the witch-cult wears a garter buckled to her leg as a symbol of her authority. In this context, and this one alone, we might understand the lady's embarassment. Her distinctive lost garter would have marked her as a high priestess of the witches, and therefore quite possibly placed her in great danger. By placing the garter upon his leg, King Edward would have placed her under his personal protection, certainly a bold step for the monarch and one of great significance to the witches of Britian.
King Edward decided that the Order would be made of of 24 knights, organized into two groups of twelve, one under the auspices of the Prince of Wales, the other directly under the monarch himself. Observant readers will have noticed that this makes two full covens of thirteen. In addition to this, the robe worn by the monarch is covered with 169 small garters or ribbons; 169 being of course 13 times 13. Numerologically, as a point of interest, this reduces to 7 (1+6+9=16 1+6=7), and so brings us back to the sacred number of the Sacred King as well. It is doubtful that this was lost on the witches of the time, just as it has not been lost on us today.
In more recent times, the Order of the Garter's membership has been expanded to include the 'poor knights', now called the 'military knights'. Interestingly enough, they have been organized into coven-sized groups as well.

[Kuroyagi]

Great! I actually didnt know where that saying came from. Yet of course we know that Murray is a damn liar. In my experience the best british histories have always been written by damn liars: geoffrey of monmouth, shakespeare, william blake (!) haha, and terry pratchett...

thats why I set this guy as the authority for the British histories:

http://www.comedy-zone.net/images/tv-shows/b/black-adder-the.jpg

And this as the national anthemn

The sound of hoof beats 'cross the glade,
Good folk, lock up your son and daughter,
Beware the deadly flashing blade,
Unless you want to end up shorter.


Black Adder, Black Adder, he rides a pitch black steed.
Black Adder, Black Adder, he's very bad indeed.

Black: his gloves of finest mole,
Black: his codpiece made of metal,
His horse is blacker than a vole,
His pot is blacker than his kettle.
Black Adder, Black Adder, with many an cunning plan.
Black Adder, Black Adder, you horrid little man.

Yrs- Black- ie Kuro-yagi/aka Taliesin.

[Okazaki Castle]

Ah, well, not all prophecies have to come to pass. Look at the Book of Revelations for example. Certainly an edit could be applied if the requisite mechanics are utilised...

On Charles's case then:

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~aahobor/Lucy-Day/Images/Covers-50/The-Once-and-Future-King.jpg
http://www.omelete.com.br/imagens/cinema/news/xmen3/28.jpg

I think things can be negotiated. But unity amongst the Keltic is necessary to such a move...

all the best,
OC.

[Kuroyagi]

Good thread, btw...I'll think of something...looking for correspondences is always fun. :)

yeah that prince charles kills me! :rofl:

edit: damn yeah...the once and future kings- I gotta!!!- read that (you know, via my studies in American pop culture I viewed the x-men trilogy on DVD and magneto reads that in prison as well as xavier is teaching it to his noobs.)

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Yet of course we know that Murray is a damn liar.

Do we? Formulating a theory is not the same as telling a lie.

In my experience the best british histories have always been written by damn liars: geoffrey of monmouth...

Please don't mention HIM, I'm eating

Yrs- Black- ie Kuro-yagi/aka Taliesin.

No, not aka Taliesin. Os na elli gyfansoddi cerdd yn yr hen iaith nid oes hawl iti ddefnyddio'r enw hwn., that's why :D

The Once and Future King

King Arthur, a Welshman famous for defeating the English!

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I think things can be negotiated. But unity amongst the Keltic is necessary to such a move...


Unity amongst the Celts, famed for their historic abhorrance of centralisation? Who were slowly conquered by the Romans and the English because they were too busy fighting eachother? Yes, just after it starts to snow in Hell. :laugh:

[Kuroyagi]

ok...:rolleyes: :laugh: ...so what does that mean (I could also write in German or whatever if I wanted you to read something incomprehensible...)- Im all for the Welsh- dunno why myself- so teach your "new apprentice", properly. ;)

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Os na elli gyfansoddi cerdd yn yr hen iaith nid oes hawl iti ddefnyddio'r enw hwn.

=If you can't compose a poem in the old language then you have no right to use this name :dogma:

[Kuroyagi]

Now thats cool! maybe I should learn that language! I write poems in my own language though....I always thought that Wales should be ruled by poet-kings "again" (was it ever for real?). Wouldnt want to be left out there...

Can you recommend any good books on poetry and/of wales...(not on the language at this point...I want to motivate myself first by some projective romanitcism)...what do you think of Graves and the white goodess-stuff?

Yrs, Tlsn. :p

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Welsh poetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_poetry)
A History of Wales (http://www.penguin.co.uk/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9780140284751,00.html), the best book on Welsh history ever written
BBC History of Wales on-line (http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/nation/pages/john_davies.shtml)

I like Graves, but he like many people try to put their own interpratations of Celtic mysticism and magic based on Hermeticism, North American Shamanism and Wicca and so on, which is a big mistake. This article on Celtic Magic is one that I agree with, though the text could do with some brushing up:

Celtic Magic (http://www.llewellynencyclopedia.com/article/193)

Modern Druidry is in fact Neo-druidism, based mainly on the imaginings of eccentrics some 200 years ago, one of the foremost of them being that unparalleled liar, Iolo Morgannwg (http://www.maryjones.us/jce/iolo.html)

[Kuroyagi]

Lying is an integral part of magic anyway-and actually a negative formulation, a pejorative. As AC put it: The word of a Magus is always a falsehood. For it is a creative word; there would be no object in uttering it if it merely stated an existing fact in nature. The task of a Magus is to make his word, the expression of his will; come true.

Nothing else than poetry anyway...whatever, I'll check out that book when it comes out in its new edition. now we shouldnt ursurp this thread further I think- thanks for the info, (what means: "my friend" in Welsh?).

[Ci Celli Ddu]

(what means: "my friend" in Welsh?).

fy nghyfaill

[MythMath]

Would you like to buy a vowel...?

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/MythMath/FORTUNE.jpg

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Would you like to buy a vowel...?

A what? Vowel...no, you've lost me there. Is it a kind of rodent? :D

[Ci Celli Ddu]

(I could also write in German or whatever if I wanted you to read something incomprehensible

Deutsch kann ich schon, Alter. Und Berlinerisch ooch. ;)

[silentjohn]

http://themot.org/gallery/d/2186-1/snoopExPost.jpg

[Okazaki Castle]

Unity amongst the Celts, famed for their historic abhorrance of centralisation? Who were slowly conquered by the Romans and the English because they were too busy fighting eachother? Yes, just after it starts to snow in Hell. :laugh:

Funnily enough, it snowed here last night...

[Kuroyagi]

Deutsch kann ich schon, Alter. Und Berlinerisch ooch. ;) Na super! Aber Wienerisch wohl kaum. ;)

heres one thats obvious and already known pretty well:

http://www.omelete.com.br/imagens/cinema/news/harry_potter_fotos/dobby.jpg

http://vladimir-putin-news.newslib.com/img/logo/298.jpg

Btw Putins German is also quite good.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/105/368025565_61d92258b7.jpg

http://boblog.adrianocastro.net/wp-content/upload/2006/08/bush_monkey.jpg

Oook ooOoOk OOoook:

http://zachk.sixbit.org/images/bush/monkey.jpg

OOoOok ooOOk oook "OOook oooOOOk ook" OOoook ook

[fr.novumorganum]

Well there is a lot of discussion and many fine pictures in this thread, but no discussion magick. As such, I'm going to move it to OT, where it seems to fit, and you can all be as all over the board as you wish.

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/transporter.jpg

[Naomi]

you hate visual intelligences. how about i just go kill myself, would that make you happy?

yeah I didn't really buy the whole descended from chimps thing until I saw the GWoB in action.

[Okazaki Castle]

Well there is a lot of discussion and many fine pictures in this thread, but no discussion magick.


We're talking involuntary invokation practices here man! Like, y'know, human forms inhabited but other-worldly intelligences. Like, demons and so on, ya see... That's kinda the cause of the pretty images... Kinda trippy wouldn't you say, all these humans walking round pretending to be human when, really, they're like ancient demons or smtg...

Peace and love brothers, I'm-a heading down to Woodstock now. As snoopy once said, we have a canary...

Regards all,
OC.

[Kuroyagi]

On this one Im with Naomi. It hurts me a bit cause this IS magic. I often encounter this reaction when I want to talk about art- or relate art- to people who arent artists themselves, or actually when I want to jokingly play around with it. They (even if they otherwise are very intelligent and discerning in their taste) often dont undestand that play and fooling around (on an artistic base) is as important to the artist as the thing that will :by chance: then become a masterpiece. I know its dfficult to understand and I personally wouldnt have made a fuss about it if I hadnt seen anyone else reacting to it but actually this is very important. Or do we want to seperate this forum into the serious parctitioner of alchemy and the idiotes who "merely" know some things that "arent important". Happens to me all the time, anyway, but I think one should decide: either one wants life in the forum or techinal descriptions- or maybe both. (tertium datur!, I say.).

[Ci Celli Ddu]

On this one Im with Naomi. It hurts me a bit cause this IS magic. I often encounter this reaction when I want to talk about art- or relate art- to people who arent artists themselves, or actually when I want to jokingly play around with it. They (even if they otherwise are very intelligent and discerning in their taste) often dont undestand that play and fooling around (on an artistic base) is as important to the artist as the thing that will :by chance: then become a masterpiece. I know its dfficult to understand and I personally wouldnt have made a fuss about it if I hadnt seen anyone else reacting to it but actually this is very important. Or do we want to seperate this forum into the serious parctitioner of alchemy and the idiotes who "merely" know some things that "arent important". Happens to me all the time, anyway, but I think one should decide: either one wants life in the forum or techinal descriptions- or maybe both.

Ah, come on K, what we're doing here is having some casual conversation, not planning some magickal masterpiece, or even mentioning any specifics regarding magick. Casual Conversation is a good enough place for this thread. I don't see any reason to feel persecuted or belittled. ;)

(tertium datur!, I say.)

Det is jar keen Wienerisch, oda? :D

[Kuroyagi]

Das is nicht einmal klassisches Latein. ;)

Of course youre right- independantly of the disscusion this fits anywhere on the borad- I dont care. also I may be not THAT attached to the point of this specific thread but Im talking about the principle- (I confess that Im too biased, too-: to anyone else it may seem ridiculous- but I have made some bad experiences myself).

Whatever- its for fun, and its good fun, so its all good. :P

[Okazaki Castle]

Ja, sicher! Wir mussen die... whoops, my german language is kinda limited to what i picked up from books and movies... Yet is not amusing that when you package something differently people understand it in wholly different ways? Lots of title,s letters after a name and using big words makes people take things seriously, whereas treating things as a game, being casual about serious topics which thou shouldst not be casual about and generally having a good old laugh about things... well, then people don't take you seriously obviously... But is not also funny, returning to The German Example, how one thing in one context traditionally has a wholly different emotional and historical effect than that same thing in a different context? For example, on a movie set vs at a political rally?

Now, whereas some practitioners are adept at changing roles, or content, we happen to also be very good at changing contexts. For context is a matter of connections and how mind grid connects and is put together is it not? And other neat little tricks also...

Hence, we can be playful, and not be taken seriously, whilst doing very high-level stuff, which is potent and works strongly. I think that's one of the characteristics of the aforementioned Tiger Style: lounging around in the open relaxing and cracking jokes, whilst all the time being the more powerful than all the other cats. Of course, we're also doing Predator Version Tygers so that silly things like Man Hunters with guns don't behave in a silly fashion...

so then, 23 man, 23!!

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Okazaki Castle]

OK, so the next one's a bit harder, because we move on to questions of character in it. That is to say, certain entities have a distinct and specific character, which persons who practically work with those entities (or hang out with them as friends even) get to know, and recognise, can can talk with other practitioners about. For example, none who know him would deny that Paimon has a very distinctive style and is a bit, or a lot more accurately I'd say, of a poser. But he's a poser in a certain way, with a distinctive personal style which is in fact cool and endearing even. It's that sort of thing which you can't really put so well into descriptive words, though you could do a story on it or smtg I suppose.

So then. You've got various levels of being, but the character can be consistent across these. For example, in my own case I do: Thundergod, Two different Archangels, VampyreGod, Demonking, Elven, DragonLord and a few others. Each distinctive in their style and behaviours, but at each level of being distinctly me. Recognisably so, fairly immediately by those who know me, character being the key.

Likewise, we have the Dalai Lama:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2416/dalailamapressconf101pz6.jpg

Who is an aspect of Haures:

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/images/articlepics/flavros.gif

As is very clear from their characters when you compare them.

And also of Laughing Buddha Form:

http://www.thespiritualfengshui.com/images/laughing-buddha.gif

Who he looks like more and conforms to his external behaviour in human form more. But I put that particular Dalai Lama photo there with the hands in that position as a gentle intro, and perhaps to confuse some a little...

So then, on that topic, what was Putin's precious? Anybody up for a guess on that one? Or we could discuss it if you like, I reckon I've got the answer pretty much from last year...

all the best all,
Oazaki.

[Naomi]

His missing hair? :D

[fr.novumorganum]

Since a number of comments have been directed at me I wanted to point a few things out:


1. Any decision made by a member of moderation is not made in a vacuum, or made randomly. We as a team discuss the direction we want the site to head in, and we as a team decide where certain discussions fit. The team here is proud of the non-authoritarian style of the board, but we are just as proud of the high level of discourse in the operational forums (ab/cm/alchemy/kaos).

2. Any statements made regarding my ‘dislike’ of visual intelligence’ or not understanding the nature of art is laughable and not based on evidence. It is ad hominem at best. Don’t attack the argument, attack the person, so much easier, right? Anyhow, I’m responding to such a baseless claim b/c I am a published writer myself---in several genres. Anyone who thinks only visual media is art is rather
provincial in outlook. Besides that, I’m also a collector of art; I’ve purchased or been given dozens of pieces. I mostly collect ‘outsider’ art, and I’ve purchased in the US, China, and Japan.

3. Since we are now speaking German, I'll leave you with probably the best theory of art I've yet discovered: auf-blitzen

[Naomi]

Well I was making a joke.

It's not my fault you have no sense of humor!

It didn't bother me at all I am just giving you a hard time.

It's funny though. Like I said aloud to my monitor "Omg he took it serious!" and laughed.

Well fr.novumorganum, the borg is proud of you too.

[fr.novumorganum]

at least you could have found me a nice picture of the borg.

[Naomi]

Well that is a problem as we have a crappy version of that current here on earth. Here is a picture of my computer case instead.

http://www.thetengu.com/Abrahadabraforumsposts/mycomputercase.jpg
http://www.thetengu.com/Abrahadabraforumsposts/mycomputercase2.jpg

Boxy isn't she? Well you'll have to give her a few thousand years to work out all of the technology and consumer market limitations. :(

[fr.novumorganum]

damn that's a nice one. i like the transformer

[Kuroyagi]

Man, this is pathetic! (I think I should take a break from internet fora)- and rather watch some American soap operas. (not talking about you frater- just generally, also the thing about art wasnt meant to offend you...Im just a very emotional person. ;). Independantly of your person I wasnt joking and really think that play is important to the creative process etc blah homo ludens blah.... also sorry for the German, lets put the blame on CCD, Id say! (jk) ;)

Oazaki: I also only know the Harry Potter movies and havent read the books but the small guy above Putin is Dobby (?) the house elf...yet youre correct I think, cause hes a toned down version of Smeagol. anyway: whats his precious, then?

[fr.novumorganum]

a dirty sock, believe it or not

[Kuroyagi]

:rofl: oh yeah that was IT! (Putin, Putin! :no: ) :laugh:

[Okazaki Castle]

Hey, I think you're cool Frater! It was just casual conversation on what is and isn't magick I think. We're all quite relaxed about where things are filed, just were commenting on perceptions and things. For myself, this is all mainly timeloops running thru, so it's like a repeat function of places I've been to before and how things were interpreted and reacted to there. As such, you remain blameless in all this, and nobody cares or holds any bad feeling. In fact, feel free to move it about again if you like! I think a mobile thread would be quite fun, a bit like Aeolos's island...

Have you published any books or novels btw? If so, do you have an agent who's good and you'd be willing to introduce me to at sometime in the future? I've got a Reiki manual I want to get published for a start... sometime or other...

As for Putin, yes he prbbly misses his hair, but worldwide communism is his precious: what he's sacrificed, deceived, caused suffering and pain for, and been thru same. It's why I don't really criticize his hardline much: fundementally, his focus is correct, he's just aiming somewhere rather hard... But discussion on that point if you all like?

As for the Dalai Lama, his aim, obviously, is to a Free Tibet once more. Somehow, I think he's going to make it, within his lifetime too... Damn but maintsream politicians always underestimate enlightened masters in their western-looking arrogance...

all the best all,
Oazaki.

[Naomi]

Well you know that's weird, my usual answer to any confusing problem is to stick them in a room with Bael and see how they come out. Yet that won't work here because how do you stick Bael in with himself. Maybe we need a doppelganger.

I like Putin too, he's just...you know...aggressive and rather uncivilized. :laugh: You know that doesn't bother me at all, but the humans are like "Ooh whee he's a big jerk!"

Well the dirty sock and the house elves is an analogy for how demons get free. you give them a role to fulfill "a piece of attire" and they work their way out of hell that way. They really appreciate the work which is why the house elves in harry potter always work tirelessly without complaint...they're working to grow and change and turn into magicians themselves someday. Oy but a role to fulfill, that's like a get out of jail free card, a test mission to see how they perform with unlimited freedom in the middle kingdom. So yes...Bael's precious...his mission in his role is very important to him because if he succeeds he'll get to the next level, which is a very exciting time for anyone.

So like in hell they have a free will but they're limited to hell.

Bael is actually the head of the Antareans race, a young race from somewhere way out there that probably was eaten by a comet or even another galaxy. The remaining fragments became the archetypes of that race and ooh whee, they are powerful and interesting.

[m1thr0s]

For the record...In the future, bitching about Moderator's actions is going to incur infractions. Period. Non-negotiable. Get used to it. Live with it...etc. These kinds of complaints should be handled privately or not at all.

Obviously we want people to have a good time. Obviously we want people to "play". If we have to relocate your damn sandbox so the grownups can talk...tough shit...you know?

transmission out.

m1thr0s

[Kuroyagi]

No prob, m1thr0s! I myself want to indulge myself in your system and familiarize myself better with it. But I need more time. I have my own studies and life-sustenance probs also I lack much learning and schooling. But I certainly WILL comment on it more even if its another 2-3yrs. If you know me you know that I want to really critizise on-point if I do and give you some input based on a profound knowledge. So have a bit more patience with us. And thanks for the sandbox btw! :)

Eternity is a child playing, playing checkers; the kingdom belongs to a child. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Heraclitus

[Okazaki Castle]

Bael is actually the head of the Antareans race, a young race from somewhere way out there that probably was eaten by a comet or even another galaxy. The remaining fragments became the archetypes of that race and ooh whee, they are powerful and interesting.

Shit, is he? I was under the impression that Bael was somewhere in the middle ranks. Who's the tall blonde guy who's gone to the centre of the moon and looks like Emperor Trigo then?

http://uk.geocities.com/lordy_mike/emptrigo.jpg

He's doing Dioskuric Twin with another antarean, black-haired this time, who may be on a parallel Earth feeding stuff into this reality thru the Antartic wormhole timegate thingie... Those were the two most powerful and highly-placed of the Antareans 'out there' I thought...

Where's does Paimon fit in btw, cuz he's one of my favourites...

all the best,
OC.

[Okazaki Castle]

If we have to relocate your damn sandbox so the grownups can talk...tough shit...you know?


Damn, that beginner/child role is really catching on it seems!! :laugh: :laugh:

So, do I get lollipops out of this deal and can I have my own radio-controlled spaceship? This is fun, though silly. I can understand why the grow-ups don't take it seriously. Hey, does this mean I can connect to useful kids all over the world now? Like Maddox and Zahara, for example...

After all, is that not how you move the mother, if required? All a question of levers, or handles, entry gates, on a psyche. Dim mak principles, for example. Still, I think this stage could be useful, needs some acclimatizing to though...

*goes off to play childish games*

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Naomi]

first let's hide his keys though...

[m1thr0s]

So, do I get lollipops out of this deal and can I have my own radio-controlled spaceship?who cares.

we've all got a kid in us Oazaki...kids don't run the shop. deal with it.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

Sorry Okazaki that's not really what I meant, it's that he's acting as the King, ie like a worker in the King position. Head doesn't even really mean most powerful or anything like that, it just means he directs things at the moment. Hence why we delegate to Bael for big projects at the moment, but not subtle currents being woven by others which will become much bigger and more powerful later. Is it relevant yet to this time-space? I know it is, just that Bael is the goto for anything else. So hence: the head.

[Okazaki Castle]

So, um, does this mean we should be getting in touch with Prince Charles? I'll be going down to London in February and reckon I could prbbly track him clear... but would much rather he came to me via MI6. So, if Bael form is so central to this, why do we not move him into place - or even better tell him to get into place of his own accord?

Should be an interesting application of Goetic theory and practice at least... If we do decide to move him into place I suggest we do a quadrangulation on him (move him from four sides / points / geographical locations). Me, you, maybe SJ and Kuro if they're interested? Or other volunteers?

Demands should be:
1. meet us, or one of us acting as representative / emissary.
2. Diplomatic passports, credit cards on a 'carte blanche' Coutts account, a suitcase of cash, 2 or 3 expensive cars.

Shouldn't be a problem for Bael really...

Motivation: furtherance of British interests, in the senses of moving the web of mind and getting thier troops out of Iraq prior to lockdown and without physically correspondent payback on their kids for DU. Also image help regarding his role in Diana's killing, or the perception of what his role possibly was in that killing/death if you like. Plus with Camilla and Harry, which would be useful and beneficial to his family and thier harmony.

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Naomi]

Well I don't know, I didn't think the Antareans were that important in the grand scheme of things. Sure I suppose we can at least try it. It's a good idea regardless, no sense in not using them.

So when do you want to contact him, exactly?

[Okazaki Castle]

Don't really care.... hmmm.... make it sometime this year? Let him compete with the Japanese there for who gets in place first, and the Hellenics who are supposedly to be leading this system (unless other races have understood the Hellenic Way better than the Greeks themselves since that definition was placed). Made Tanemura quite intensely externally aware of our work back around the 12th January, so I am interested to see how that will reflect across the Japanese material. Kain said that Tanemura was apparently the key and access gate to getting the Japanese Imperials in touch with us... but part of my deal may have been to get them the English, such was implied at one point.

Really, I do want to see who makes it first, both in terms of racial karma and also in terms of personal matters, such as character evaluation and hierarchy. It is a race, for them, in my mind. But also there are strategic considerations in play, for example Laurent has specific responsibilities to fulfil before he can present himself. Likewise I think with most of the other candidates. A question of competence and power in the physical then? As such, would Bael really be in a position of strength, or are otehr players out there more potent than him, Putin for example? As such, is Bael best used as a playing piece, just to gte out circumstances in order externally, then we can duly reward him for it, and do an 'abstain feature' on his being in the race, thereby also accruing to him a 'Get out of Jail Free' card, for Diana, like a Karmic let-off clause, which I can do on Dark Matter edit. Seems a fair deal to me.

OK, then it is done, let him be moved into place as swiftly as harmoniously allows for it, say no sooner than 15-17 days from now, ASAP, but in a relaxed way with an easy to follow pace after that. Estimate around the 90 day mark then, with previous emissary contact before that, eg MI6.

Just guessing / running thru process though, and negotiating. Does this feel about right to you, or other recommendations?

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Naomi]

Honestly I've always hedged my bets on the Japanese for the past 500 years or so. Athens was a disaster for the Greeks and they are JUST now beginning to pay attention to Zeus and Hermes and all of that jazz. Still, you never know.

I don't really see Bael as the key to all of it, though I do acknowledge his importance. (Became aware of him way back in 1995 as a matter of fact)

O and here's one for you to ponder, oh stoic one:

"I am the one who stands in the shadows and smiles, for my children will change the world, for the nine generations past and nine generations to come."

Nine generations (alternatively seven generations) is a native american term, it refers to how our actions are imprinted upon this world for nine generations.

It's paraphrased and I remember first seeing it on a american indian college fund poster from either Tulalips or Lummi.

It also refers to how children will echo their imprints in space-time across nine generations in either direction.

And it's a Hermetic current, too. Hermes is a child of the sun, and is incarnated in maya as the planet mercury. (Yes, as you can see by my avatar and sig, I'm on a rather spacy vibe right now.)

Hermes in fact, does control the world, he's flexible and thus more dynamic than all of the other planets, and because he does his rotations so damn fast, other people just can't keep up. But he's also receptive and helpful. Hermes is always smarter, faster and daring than anyone else and as a plus, quite willing to share with everyone else how he does it.


The cure for old-age-itis (all in your head):

http://www.thetengu.com/Abrahadabraforumsposts/segasaturn.jpg

Which is a lot better then just quoting scooby doo villains all of the time.

Ok part of the time.

[m1thr0s]

Hermes in fact, does control the world, he's flexible and thus more dynamic than all of the other planets, and because he does his rotations so damn fast, other people just can't keep up. But he's also receptive and helpful. Hermes is always smarter, faster and daring than anyone else and as a plus, quite willing to share with everyone else how he does it.Yes, and he is also no fool...I should know...I am in constant communication with this one via Ng...

Rules built upon necessity are like the laws of nature themselves.
Jump before you're ready to fly and nobody gives a damn how young you are...you will die.

m1thr0s

[Naomi]

So m1thr0s, am I to understand you mean I am going to die?

:):):)

[Kuroyagi]

No. He means: you'll kill yourself.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

And it's a Hermetic current, too. Hermes is a child of the sun, and is incarnated in maya as the planet mercury. (Yes, as you can see by my avatar and sig, I'm on a rather spacy vibe right now.)


Ah now, that depends on which system you're using. For some, the Sun is both son and nephew to Hermes.

[Naomi]

No. He means: you'll kill yourself.


But isn't that the same thing as dying?

[Naomi]

Ah now, that depends on which system you're using. For some, the Sun is both son and nephew to Hermes.

I'm using my own system Ci Celli, but which one are you referring to?

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I am in constant communication with this one via Ng...


Ng? What/Who?

[Kuroyagi]

But isn't that the same thing as dying?
Sure, its only more fun! Like seppuku or somehting.


edit. our life-expectancy is growing by the minute, though.

[Kuroyagi]

Ng? What/Who?
Ningishzidda: http://www.forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325

p.s. this thread is nice: its just so chaotic! :)

[MythMath]

Ng? What/Who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida)

http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325 (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?t=325)

http://www.abrahadabra.com/ningishzida.rising.htm

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Ah right, Ningishzidda. Cheers.

[m1thr0s]

So m1thr0s, am I to understand you mean I am going to die?Sadly, yes, but perhaps not for another 80 years or so. And who knows, supposedly those of us who make it past 2012 may beat the odds completely...

doubtful, but who knows...

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

And who knows, supposedly those of us who make it past 2012 may beat the odds completely...


Oh yes :yes:

[Okazaki Castle]

And it's a Hermetic current, too. Hermes is a child of the sun, and is incarnated in maya as the planet mercury. (Yes, as you can see by my avatar and sig, I'm on a rather spacy vibe right now.)

Hermes in fact, does control the world, he's flexible and thus more dynamic than all of the other planets, and because he does his rotations so damn fast, other people just can't keep up. But he's also receptive and helpful. Hermes is always smarter, faster and daring than anyone else and as a plus, quite willing to share with everyone else how he does it.


Well. First of all, the deal was, Hermes gets Apollo's cattle if and only if he renders unto Apollo his Lyre:


Zeus had impregnated Maia at the dead of night while all other gods slept. When dawn broke amazingly he was born. Maia wrapped him in swaddling bands, then resting herself, fell fast asleep. Hermes, however, squirmed free and ran off to Thessaly. This is where Apollo (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/apollo.html), his brother, grazed his cattle. Hermes stole a number of the herd and drove them back to Greece. He hid them in a small grotto near to the city of Pylos and covered their tracks. Before returning to the cave he caught a tortoise, killed it and removed its entrails. Using the intestines from a cow stolen from Apollo and the hollow tortoise shell, he made the first lyre. When he reached the cave he wrapped himself back into the swaddling bands. When Apollo realized he had been robbed he protested to Maia that it had been Hermes who had taken his cattle. Maia looked to Hermes and said it could not be, as he is still wrapped in swaddling bands. Zeus the all powerful intervened saying he had been watching and Hermes should return the cattle to Apollo. As the argument went on, Hermes began to play his lyre. The sweet music enchanted Apollo, and he offered Hermes to keep the cattle in exchange for the lyre. Apollo later became the grand master of the instrument, and it also became one of his symbols.


What does the lyre represent? That is a mystery, guess everybody. If you want. Or don't, if you don't want. But let me make this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_asteroid) clear regarding Hermes. It is not negotiable. I have a New Song to produce and get staged. If Hermes thinks he's hard and clever, he should remember that he is small and that there are other, smaller planetoids and other bodies in closer orbit to the Sun than he. Same goes for other Mercury symbolisms, such as Trade, Money, Negotiables.

As an intelligence, Hermes is cool, and I like him. But the source of light and so its representations, such as knowledge, is the Sun. Intelligence can only carry one so far, and as previously mentioned, Venus is brighter in the sky as viewed from Earth, even though she is further away from the Sun than Hermes.

Just as Hermes had to duly obey Apollo, and Zeus intervened to protect Hermes for Apollo could have crushed him and was willing to, historically we can see Hermes as Subedai where Apollo is Genghis Khan: certainly Subedai was strategically superior, but this was necessary because he lacked Genghis Khan's personal charisma and destructive willingness. Indeed, Subedai's great achievement - and why the others listened to him - was that he typically always won large victories with small troop loss from his own side by coming up with clever strategic tricks and traps. That still makes him only a a very able general where Genghis was the commander. Why? Because some things in life can't be learned. For the rest, there's study and schooling.

Hermes is cool but he anything he controls is only because other people are being gentle on him for reasons of their own. Knowledge is not the basis of power or its expression: destructive force is what power is based on. Pens don't do squat in practice where big swords are concerned. Knowledge allows for large, complex systems of civilization to be built, however. Or other such life-improving systems. That is why we like Hermes, his work and his representations. But also, his elder brother is bigger than him, more powerful and, in fact (contrary to some appearances on this planet where money seems to rule all) controls lots more things than he does. And that's without even mentioning Papa yet...

Regards all,
Okazaki Castle.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

destructive force is what power is based on. Pens don't do squat in practice where big swords are concerned.

Words control and motivate Swords. Hermes is speach itself.

[Okazaki Castle]

Words control and motivate Swords. Hermes is speach itself.

Well, only the Revelations sword as I see it. Am I missing something?

all the best,
Oazaki.

[Dragon]

Yes.


~D~

[Naomi]

What does the lyre represent? That is a mystery, guess everybody. If you want. Or don't, if you don't want. But let me make this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_asteroid) clear regarding Hermes. It is not negotiable. I have a New Song to produce and get staged. If Hermes thinks he's hard and clever, he should remember that he is small and that there are other, smaller planetoids and other bodies in closer orbit to the Sun than he. Same goes for other Mercury symbolisms, such as Trade, Money, Negotiables.Well there's the obvious one...string theory and the power to the one who weilds it!

Well I don't think Hermes thinks he's hard and clever. He's clever and recognizes that Apollo really ought to be playing the songs.

As an intelligence, Hermes is cool, and I like him. But the source of light and so its representations, such as knowledge, is the Sun. Intelligence can only carry one so far, and as previously mentioned, Venus is brighter in the sky as viewed from Earth, even though she is further away from the Sun than Hermes.
Isn't that true!

Now here's a cosmic joke from Hermes back at yah:

Cosmic Ties! (http://usa.hermes.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10202&jspStoreDir=Hermes+North+America+Store&categoryId=22955&isHomepage=true&catalogId=10052&ddkey=HermesStoreResolver)



Hermes is cool, that's why he has to stay so close to the sun! :cool:

Well babes I am so biased. Mercury is my bright and shining star, after all, and practically all of my good planets are in Gemini. So tum te tum, sorry. :laugh:


Ci Celli, are you actually suggesting Tyrannosaurs had a language? :( And what about the quiet slinky tiger stalking meaty juicebags through the jungle?

edit

Hey who do you think Hermes is this round?! :D

[Okazaki Castle]

Yes.


~D~

I don't think so actually, but perhaps you would care to expand?

And yes, I am well aware that all things in the realm of mind are formed by mind. This would include swords of the esoteric variety as well as physical swords. But what determines mind and if we determine it, is not Mind itself determined, and also it forms, at one step of removal, or delegation?

As for the Revelations sword, I believe that's mine. In practice, if anybody thinks they can wield it better, or have done in the past, or have bound it's possession more strongly to their own being, let them step forth. Revelations is quite specific on what the use of that sword entails and, let us not deceive ourselves, I do do that best: both on the speech side of it, and in terms of the scenarios and events it actually describes. In fact, as regards both those parameters, I'd say nobody else has even properly tried. But let us see if this point can be disputed, when one thinks about it.

I still think it would be courteous to tell me what I'm missing if you assert that I am so missing something. After all, if one leaves another in the dark, well, that's not very nice is it, nor helpful to them... Plus, of course, when one is in the realms of karma, one should know one's location and environment, for how else can one care for it?

Regards,
PCVM.

[Okazaki Castle]

The lyre also connects to tortoises, and so I Ching lore, plus indeed the strings which are both tendons and allso coding lines. IT also connects to the Theseus myth cycle, and Terry Pratchett's work, in fact.

Hey, I like Mercury / Gemini too, after all both you and Angelina are there...

From what Jacob said, the photo featuring Subedai as Purple Haze, I'd say he's Mercury. This would make sense because Dim, his current incarnation, is also short and small, but very rich and good at thinking, just like Mercury. Hermes Trismegistus is on this board I think, and other Hermes forms are around. Which one is central and most powerful, that I don't really question myself, for it is a special art to be powerful amongst the big guys when you're small, and Subedai did that best I think...

all the best,
PCVM. (who I'm being at the moment...)

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Ci Celli, are you actually suggesting Tyrannosaurs had a language? :( And what about the quiet slinky tiger stalking meaty juicebags through the jungle?




Be serious. Hermes and Apollo only exist for humans. Animals don't do abstract.

[Naomi]

(can't/won't be Sirius Ci)

I'll disagree on the first point, I think they are not only universal archetypes, but also real entities. I don't understand why they would not exist for non-humans, that's terribly self centered. As for animals not doing abstract...I don't understand what you mean by that, could you expand further?

[Ci Celli Ddu]

I'll disagree on the first point, I think they are not only universal archetypes, but also real entities. I don't understand why they would not exist for non-humans, that's terribly self centered. As for animals not doing abstract...I don't understand what you mean by that, could you expand further?

It's self evident. Gods and Magic are Abstract. Animals don't do Abstract. Animals have a collective consciousness, but they don't have pantheons of gods, to suggest otherwise is ludicrous. Animals aren't naturally swords either. And from a magical perspective to belittle the incarnation of the Magus, Hermes, is to belittle oneself as well as to show absolutely no understanding of Archetypes.

[Naomi]

Why is it ludicrous though, what evidence have you found of such?

What do you mean, belittle the incarnation of Hermes?

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Why is it ludicrous though, what evidence have you found of such?

What evidence have you to the contrary?

What do you mean, belittle the incarnation of Hermes?

Hermes is the archetype of the magus. A magus who belittles the very incarnation and archetype of Magick and its practice is in effect undermining himself and his magick as a magus.

[Naomi]

Well because of what animals have shown me. I don't understand how sword can be separated from any living thing, perhaps you could explain better so my little mind can understand. Are you saying you do not have any evidence or are you being mysterious?

So what do you mean, magic is an archetype?

What do you mean by belittle, is what I meant...?

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Well because of what animals have shown me.

Every species has a collective consciousness that can interact with both the magus and other collective consciousnesses. This is not the same as an individual animal having a pantheon, performing magick, or any abstract activity.

I don't understand how sword can be separated from any living thing

The Sword here is an abstract human concept. Animals are not motivated by abstract concepts.


perhaps you could explain better so my little mind can understand. Are you saying you do not have any evidence or are you being mysterious?

I think I have been as clear and as literal as I possibly can.

So what do you mean, magic is an archetype?

I did not say that. I said Hermes is the archetypal magus.

What do you mean by belittle, is what I meant...?

I am refering to previous things said on this thread, e.g :

If Hermes thinks he's hard and clever, he should remember that he is small and that there are other, smaller planetoids and other bodies in closer orbit to the Sun than he. Same goes for other Mercury symbolisms, such as Trade, Money, Negotiables.

[Naomi]

The Sword here is an abstract human concept. Animals are not motivated by abstract concepts.

Thank you Ci


Beauty is not objective, yet Koko signalled to her trainers that the gorilla the trainers intended to mate her with was "ugly", when they asked her why she did not want to mate with him.

On the topic of swords, I am referring to the sword as a symbol, the symbol of the element of fire. In Bardon's book on Hermeticism, he indicates that emotions and other such abstract concepts are also of the element of fire.

Going further here, Bardon also asserts that the elements are the very basis of all in the physical worlds. I lent my copy of Initiation into Hermetics to someone almost a year ago and they never returned it, so unfortunately I can't access a passage that will confirm this. However, Bob Hendricks, a deceased magician who passed away just a little while ago, also asserted that the physical world is comprised of earth, fire, water and air as well as akasha (as Bardon refers to the life giving breath or fifth element) So as you can see with my line of thinking I regard everything as having a bit of each element in them, and that I also believe it is these very elements that are present themselves in animal behavior.

[Anibis]

One line on which this may be a bit confusing to people is that Many of us use the Suit of swords to refer to the element of AIR. I understand some to use fire, but I have not explored that symbolism greatly.
-Ibisis

[Ci Celli Ddu]

One line on which this may be a bit confusing to people is that Many of us use the Suit of swords to refer to the element of AIR. I understand some to use fire, but I have not explored that symbolism greatly.
-Ibisis

Swords = Air conventionally I agree. An actual sword is made directly from Earth (metal) that is transformed by a combination of the other three elements, which might explain the employment of other correlations. Personally I prefer to stick with the original/conventional correlation generally, because once you start reinventing them you enter a labyrinth of reinventions with no way out.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Thank you Ci


Beauty is not objective, yet Koko signalled to her trainers that the gorilla the trainers intended to mate her with was "ugly", when they asked her why she did not want to mate with him.

Signalling dislike through an imposed Human system of terms of reference is not the same as sharing or using an abstract concept.

On the topic of swords, I am referring to the sword as a symbol, the symbol of the element of fire. In Bardon's book on Hermeticism, he indicates that emotions and other such abstract concepts are also of the element of fire.

Going further here, Bardon also asserts that the elements are the very basis of all in the physical worlds. Bob Hendricks, a deceased magician who passed away just a little while ago, also asserted that the physical world is comprised of earth, fire, water and air as well as akasha (as Bardon refers to the life giving breath or fifth element) So as you can see with my line of thinking I regard everything as having a bit of each element in them, and that I also believe it is these very elements that are present themselves in animal behavior.

Again, we can include animals in our magical and abstract concepts, but that doesn't mean that animals will act according to those concepts. An animal will do whatever is in its nature to do, unless forced to act otherwise.

[Naomi]

Again, we can include animals in our magical and abstract concepts, but that doesn't mean that animals will act according to those concepts. An animal will do whatever is in its nature to do, unless forced to act otherwise.
Sorry - I tend to think of fire as a fundamental part of the universe, and not merely a concept. I see it as something that is present in all matter. If you do not agree, then we will have to leave it at that I'm afraid. And yes I do equate swords with fire, wands with air. :D

On the topic of abstract emotions, do you not think animals can feel love or hate? Why is it in the nature of a dolphin to save a human being? Certainly it can't be for survival reasons.

I still don't understand what you mean by belittling Hermes though...did I say something? I thought you might be referring to me saying "we're only humans" but perhaps I'm wrong.

[Anibis]

Okay, well, look people, if NC is arguing that Animals have 'fire' (which I'd agree), and CCD is saying they have 'air' (as abstract existence), then you are not actually talking about the same thing at all. You are speaking different languages... Animals tend, I think to be more firey, but I associate fire with Wands. It is the verile force, the leaping lusting drive to create, whereas the Sword divides, cuts and analyzes. In a rational sense, most animals do not appear to have this faculty, (although in a physical sense certainly predators do). SO my advice would be to agree on the meaning of your terms before debating the finer implications...
-Ibisis

[Naomi]

What are you, trying to make all kinds of common sense?!

Ibisis I don't know where I got the idea swords was fire, but I suspect it was the Cat People Tarot deck which I used for years and years. Wands was green and swords always had fire in it. And when I looked at the medical symbol...the caduceus, the wand reminded me of air/intellect more than fire.

I suspect me being female also has something to do with it....

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Im not saying animals have "Air", Ibisis. I'm saying that I correlate swords with Air, like yourself. I'm further saying that the elements themselves are abstract. You can say everything, including animals, are made up of elements, but that is obviously a human concept, not an animal one.

As for emotions, emotions are not abstract. Ideas are abstract.

[Naomi]

So you're really saying human concepts only apply to humans, and not to the universe outside of us?

So a scientific idea is abstract whereas an emotion is not abstract?

In the book Talking Apes & Dancing Bees, chapter 8 "Art Lovers" discusses a bowerbirds: "Researchers have found the bird with the most elaborate bowers mate with the most females." the book goes on to further discuss evidence of altruism, grief and use of tools.

Surely you would not argue that the use of tools is not an abstract concept, and even then, altruism is surely not a trait which is supported by witless, dumb, evolution driven animals...

I don't think humans are special, we just have a greater degree of what animals also have. I also think that the aim of the occult is to grasp truth, and that truth is universal. If we all return to a single point, eventually we'll all travel parts of the same road or at the very least, end at the same destination. Whether you believe that or not is an argument that goes back millennia, I may not believe in nailing dogs to crosses, but I assure you I'm not moralistic...

Anyways this is all starting to sound like the argument that savages can't understand salvation and god because it's solely a <insert other superior race here> concept, and they are savages "animals with voices".

I regard humans as animals Ci, I don't see any gift offered solely to us, perhaps we just chose to take other paths...

[Ci Celli Ddu]

So you're really saying human concepts only apply to humans, and not to the universe outside of us?

So a scientific idea is abstract whereas an emotion is not abstract?

In the book Talking Apes & Dancing Bees, chapter 8 "Art Lovers" discusses a bowerbirds: "Researchers have found the bird with the most elaborate bowers mate with the most females." the book goes on to further discuss evidence of altruism, grief and use of tools.

Surely you would not argue that the use of tools is not an abstract concept, and even then, altruism is surely not a trait which is supported by witless, dumb, evolution driven animals...

I don't think humans are special, we just have a greater degree of what animals also have. I also think that the aim of the occult is to grasp truth, and that truth is universal. If we all return to a single point, eventually we'll all travel parts of the same road or at the very least, end at the same destination. Whether you believe that or not is an argument that goes back millennia, I may not believe in nailing dogs to crosses, but I assure you I'm not moralistic...

Anyways this is all starting to sound like the argument that savages can't understand salvation and god because it's solely a <insert other superior race here> concept, and they are savages "animals with voices".

I regard humans as animals Ci, I don't see any gift offered solely to us, perhaps we just chose to take other paths...

This isnt a "Humans are better than Animals" argument, Naomi. It never was. And no, using tools is not abstract. Deciding what element correlates to what deity is abstract. To return to my original comment:

destructive force is what power is based on. Pens don't do squat in practice where big swords are concerned.Words control and motivate Swords. Hermes is speach itself

As you can see, what animals are and what they do is not relevant here.

[Naomi]

And no, using tools is not abstract. You're saying tool use is emotional thinking then? :)



Words control and motivate Swords.The original wording you used was "animals are not swords" hmm? Words are only sounds, there are many other ways to motive air.

What I see is that you are insisting that animals are incapable of manipulating or utilizing the element of air. In my opinion this erroneous. I also insist that air is not just a human concept but a word to describe a universal or at least solar-system specific rule, law or mechanism that exists free from humanity.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

You're saying tool use is emotional thinking then? :)
If you're going to insist on putting words in my mouth then you might as well talk to yourself

The original wording you used was "animals are not swords" hmm? Words are only sounds, there are many other ways to motive air.
I have just supplied you with the original comment. Stop trolling.

What I see is that you are insisting that animals are incapable of manipulating or utilizing the element of air.

Nonsense. Try reading the thread again.

I also insist that air is not just a human concept but a word to describe a universal or at least solar-system specific rule, law or mechanism that exists free from humanity.

...derived from Human concepts. Your discourse is like a dog that is chasing its own tail. This conversation is at an end.

[Naomi]

Woah time out. That was a question I concluded from you stating tool use is not abstract so I assumed you must feel it may be emotional cognitive process. There's no need to get hostile Ci, I was only trying to understand your perspective...


Come on don't be mad....I'm not trying to harass you.

[Dragon]

Please get this thread back on topic or start a new thread please. There is an element to this debate that is bordering on trolling. A healthy disagreement is one thing, but going in circles over misunderstood semantics is another. Intentionally or non-intentionally, get it gear please or I will lock the thread.


Thanks,

Dragon

[Anibis]

What are you, trying to make all kinds of common sense?!

Ibisis I don't know where I got the idea swords was fire, but I suspect it was the Cat People Tarot deck which I used for years and years. Wands was green and swords always had fire in it. And when I looked at the medical symbol...the caduceus, the wand reminded me of air/intellect more than fire.

I suspect me being female also has something to do with it....

Uncommon sense hopefully. But I read that association too. It was in a book called 'high magick ritual' or something of the sort. GD style ceremonial magick... Anyhow the authors contended that the wand for fire/sword for air association was a blind, and that the two should be reversed. Anyways, I had progressed far enough along in Hermetics to not really want to switch, and had read enough chaos magick not to really believe in absolutes, so I kept up with the common interpretation, which works very well for me... I am curious as to why you feel the opposite attribution is more attractive to women... that's an interesting take on it...
-Ibisis

[Anibis]

Oh, whoops, just read your post. Sorry Dragon, I desist.
-Ib

[Cosmicbrat]

If it were fact.. that the ball of rock that flew through the planet, near 66 to the 6th power, years ago, to become our moon.. that the splashes of ocean, to forever orbit around our planetary path.. till one day a chunk of ocean happens to come-home.. like mercury is spiraling back into mum...
and the flare will melt steel on earth...

...That would mean that the "666 group synthetic-fear".. is that it could happen again.. when what we truly fear is those chunks of earth hitting the planet some day.. and obliterating us...
We hold two options... To die. Or to unite in minds, and set the incoming gently down, in an accessible spot, on the fringes of a big city's dessert border... We have the Abilities... we just haven't begun to develop them.. and we're devolving...

Most the time I'm running in 28% mind usage... and can access 56% sometimes... And twice, touched 101%, which is One Huge "I wish you were here" Rush!..

...But when I do 100% in this town, "all hell breaks loose"... Domestic critters run in large circles at full throttle.. and the psychotics, in this town, go full blown psychotic...
I 'spose they just cant handle bathed in this much reality..?

But the wild critters just loves it at 100 percent... They touch you, and sing to you, their best songs... It makes you loved, and proud to be alive... It's those little things that are the biggest things... Is why after turning over an ancient old log, in the forest, to see what was under it.. I realized I had disrupted their world badly.. like a "storm".. is why I reset the log, after dropping in a furry of bits of my food stores.. and piles of nice grass cuttings and leaves... And a sprinkling of a quart of dilute sugar all around their home's perimeter, for a treat...


Once when I touched 100%, the cat ran around the living room, one-third up the walls, looking like it was almost flying... I suppose the cat got a rush too...

I managed 100% for a few seconds.. thrice.. two in this town... each time rammed me hard into death.. I had to fight my way back... Scariest NDE's you could ever imagine... and a HUGE Rush!.. like "yer soul is rushing too"...

Generally ones-fears bubbling up, is a signal from Reality that something is impending... ("asteroid")...
It's called "instinct"... ("instanct if'n yer from in der backwoods like me...
If you would like to see my Life.. then read the series of FoxFire books, an' feel real people pull you into godz reality... where "the family of man" actually is The Family of Man...
Squish all those angelic bloodlines into one, and you have your god before you.. right in you face...
And what do you do..? You peak, freak, bolt, and run.. and you cuss at them for making you see and fear what you aren't... (sounds like "snapcracklepop".. plus one...)
What I can't understand is why do you push them in a corner, box them up.? and forget about them?.. while you seem to prefer "surfing-hell".. while your reach is to heaven...??
Isn't that something like trying to shove yor head up yer arse to get to heaven..?
...the whole-time, heaven was in your pocket...

None of you are gonna make it if you don't start wakin' up to you...
I'm rockin' yer boat gently, just a little... Ask me to stop, and I will...
I no force you to wake up if you not want to... If you like remain asleep, sleep.. I have no right to wake you...
But many Are awake.. and they see we're headed for disaster if we don't change course...

Too bad to, cuz I found a new boat.. a single-seater...
Which means that someone special gets to ride on my lap...

___________________


Which is about as far as I want to take it now, in "tossing you a rope"...

Define: "cosmic gravity"...
..in the light of what a male orgasm feels like, after your brains feel like they 'sploded.. and the fear that if'n you opens yourn eyes, you will surely break the spell, an' fall from the ceiling to the floor...
The worst part of it is you don't know where that glass coffee table is, in respect to your position in the room..?? And the spears and swords are down there somewhere..?? where ever that be..?? cosmic something..?? All you got, is to hold to her real tight, and she hold to him real tight.. whilst chatting, eyes closed.. "Do you think we're right at the ceiling?"...

"Umm.. Don't know??.. but it sure feels like it!"... I'm thinkin' that opening eyes might break the spell.. and we really don't know if the glass table is under us, or not.. so we'll agree that we aren't gonna open our eyes... agreed?"

"Yikers!.. Agreed"


"I'm thinkin' that we should get right into the very core of a Kiss... A Kiss like Kiss is meant to be... like your whole Life is in it...
...And while we're doing that, I'll do my best to lower us back down gently onto the couch"...

"That couch is a pretty sm-mall target.. dontchathink?.. Howz about we aim for the Floor instead?.. the middle of the floor that is!.. That's a much better target.. And it increases the safety levels as well.. Away from all those pointy weapons you've got laying all-around down-there.. oh mY!... Come to think on it.. There's really no place safe down there..."

The couch is a safe place down there.. and good point... and Points...
...So, all we've got is we will do the Kiss thing.. and we'll do it like it's supposed to be done, beyond the restrictions of All the heavens and hells.. what ever it is..?.. We'll just do it right all the time, first time, this time...

"Are you telling me You Don't Knowww?..?.. oooOOee.. Double Yikers!!"..

"Hey!.. I'm a good driver.. Even if I don't know the vehicle nor the road... You are safer Here, than the whole planet where it is, in my arms... trust me.. just hold tight, and explore the bottom and top, and insides of Kiss"..


"OK My Number-One.. Kiss me my Prince"...