Summoning Entities

[MythMath]

I've been here reading about these
matters for several months now...

As some of you know, I've not actually
experienced such things directly (yet)...

I've been absorbing quite alot of information based
on the many 'links' that have been presented here...

But I haven't asked any direct questions regarding things such
as 'arming oneself to defend against an unfriendly entity', etc...

It's fascinating to read all of you discuss
these things in such a matter-of-fact way...

It sometimes seems as if you're playing a video game... :rolleyes:

[Absolutely no offence nintended...]
___________________________

So, some questions from the uninitiated:
(please refer me to texts if you feel I wouldn't be able
to comprehend the answers without more knowledge)

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity
that you challenge is stronger than you...?

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?
________________________

That oughta get my ball rollin'...

Thanks,

MM

[m1thr0s]

I'm going to move this to Magick...

m1thr0s

[m1thr0s]

Ok...CCD made an important statement that needs to be here also...generally in reference to how do you know what you summons is real & how do you know you won't get creamed?
I won't, because that won't happen. I am my own deity. All deities are me. Invocation is like putting on the right clothes for the right occasion. The clothes may inspire a certain side of your character to become prominent, but they don't start thinking for you. ;) I happen to agree with this point of view completely, but I also realize that it is an enlightened point of view not easily accessed by everyone...

At least 4-6000 years before Carl Jung came out with the idea of the Collective Unconscious, the Rigveda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda) announced the principle of the Purusha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purusha), which is an even loftier construct that Jung's and ultimately accounts for why human beings can encounter Archetpes powerful enough to destroy them...even though they ultimately manifest from them...

Whether or not one has the sense to get onboard with this principle is entirely up to each individual but magick is all about reality creation, so I would suggest there is no good reason to build an inferior boat when the instructions for building a proper one have been with us all along.

This principle can be reduced to the axiom "there is no god but man", but you have to know what that means or it will do you very little good.

With these references in mind then:

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...? Yes & No...

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...? Yes (which explains the *& No*)

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...? Each Other? (Yes, this varies with individuals)

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...? (tantrically and as vehemently as possible. For myself, defense is all about being able to stand a physical ground. To do this against non-corporeal entities or potent consentual constructs you have to be able to pull rank. In order to pull rank you have to be able to assert a higher ground. There is no suitable substitute for whole or *true* self)

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity that you challenge is stronger than you...? yes...don't let anything convince you of this...it is a lie. the argument is divisive by design...if I am stronger than your thumb...does this make me stronger than all of you? yet this is the exact argument that will come against you. nothing is stronger than whole self.

6. Can you be literally destroyed...? Physical deaths relating to summonsings gone awry have occasionally been reported. More often a person will become psychologically dismantled which can range from a pretty bad scrape to unrepairable damage.

m1thr0s

[Ci Celli Ddu]

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?

Probably, what with the Law of Relativity and all that...

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?

Yes

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?

The Astral's kind of a grey area for me. In dreams, yes.

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?

With Will. With Imagination.

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity
that you challenge is stronger than you...?

If you let it be stronger than you, yes.

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?

(same answer as Question 5)
________________________

[Ci Celli Ddu]

At least 4-6000 years before Carl Jung came out with the idea of the Collective Unconscious, the Rigveda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda) announced the principle of the Purusha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purusha), which is an even loftier construct that Jung's and ultimately accounts for why human beings can encounter Archetpes powerful enough to destroy them...even though they ultimately manifest from them...


Yes, and apart from the Human Collective Conscious and the World CC (I assume Baphomet is the latter?) there's (as you know) a CC for evey species. Communicating with these is more like doing so with an external entity than an internal one, especialy those that don't figure in our direct ancestral make-up (like insects and vegetables). I've never found them to be anything other than respectful to those that show respect though.

[m1thr0s]

dinosaurs are tad feisty...lol...
molds are gnarly...but they are funny...

*note: some godforms have the ability to kill on the basis of virtue, or lack thereof...some demons on the basis of fear, which is similar in some respects to the virtue wedge. one has a certain obligations in life and if you can't be bothered with this you better steer clear of magick.

m1thr0s

[Oblio]

Communicating with these is more like doing so with an external entity than an internal one, especialy those that don't figure in our direct ancestral make-up (like insects and vegetables). I've never found them to be anything other than respectful to those that show respect though.

It's relatively easy for me to invoke plant/insect energy. From what I've seen, vegetable life is extremely passionate (that word sounds funny.. it's not quite what I mean - it's very intense though, sexual even).

Sometimes I do my summoning through drawing, I find it to have invocative and evocative elements - this is one entity that I'm very close to (or perhaps it's an echo of my extremely ancient self).... It arose spontaneously as I was pencilling random lines around the page, connecting them in interesting ways, while letting myself vegetate *lol*

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/1280/organicone2lv.jpg


I've never felt anything threatening from outside.. however, after intense work with the green spirit, the man world around me has faded out a few times - cars, roads, and buildings have seemed washed out compared to the absolute vibrancy of the grass, and trees etc. which absorb my senses!

Once though, I went to cross a road that was all clear, and then "out of nowhere" a cement mixer truck was hurtling towards me - I stepped back quickly and couldn't help but laugh as the wind of its passage breezed past my face. Could have gone a lot more poorly for me!

[MythMath]

Talk about concrete evidence... :laugh:

[Kain]

First of all I should say that I agree with m1thr0s's point on Purusha and I think it is extremely important for the correct understanding of such a subject.


1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?

No, there are very important handles on objectivity, otherwhise there wouldn't be a point to discuss it's specifics. Like I have said elsewhere, magickal work is always functioning through a more or less subjective context and trying to interract and even assume an objective principle which lies "outside" of one's conscious system. Since these operations are approached through individual personalities, settings and methods, the views of the objective principle on the other side are also affected and personalized to an extent. It is the loftyness of the operation compared to the weight of our personality traits that has this effect to occur. It can be minimized however as experience grows, so as to provide one with a lot more clear and unbiased interractions, however I think it is almost impossible to eliminate it in our current existential condition as I think that the communicational problem we are discussing here is integrated to the circumstances themselves rather than being a simple technical error on the practitinoer's part.

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?

Certainly. These are the hits on actual "universal objectivity" that are described above.


3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?

Even though the particulars could be further discussed, I would say yes. Even though I do not engage in interpersonal astral workings deliberately I have experienced various instances of very accurate and direct communication through it.


4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?

(tantrically and as vehemently as possible. For myself, defense is all about being able to stand a physical ground. To do this against non-corporeal entities or potent consentual constructs you have to be able to pull rank. In order to pull rank you have to be able to assert a higher ground. There is no suitable substitute for whole or *true* self) I feel that this answer is the most concise possible for such a question and I wouldn't be able to put it better I think. Defense and assault are two aspects of the same coin in the tantric approach, and that is through having and employing extensively the anchor point of the complete *Body*, which taps to the potency of Higher Law and is able to successfully convey and impress it to all that lies Below it. Being in contact with such a structure (the Body) and such a principle (the apex) arms one for unmatched defensive potential and for devestating attack power. It is a process best understood through hands on energy work.

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity that you challenge is stronger than you...?

Yes, you certainly can. You need to have a quite good resonance between your astral and physical bodies however (so that the "damage" is conveyed through intense resonance), a process that is not always sought for by practitioners. However, for me at least, physical effects are very common through all aspects of my energy work (as I do aim for this sort of high resonance), and this includes interaction with other entities/archetypes.

Again, I will agree with m1thr0s's point however, that nothing is stronger than a wholy composed Self. All sustained damage originates from the fact that our composition is not complete, and since this completion is a long and tiresome quest, damage sustained along the way can be thought of even as innevitable at certain cases. Even so however, the point remains that there is nothing stronger than Self once that wholeness has been personally achieved.

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?

I would say that it can be done and has been reported in the past, however it is more common to suffer intense mental and psychological damage rather than physical. Still, if resonance works that way, you may certainly suffer severe physical harm as well, but it is less common.

Kain

[Ci Celli Ddu]

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?

To do this against non-corporeal entities or potent consentual constructs you have to be able to pull rank. In order to pull rank you have to be able to assert a higher ground.


This, word for word, better describes my own approach on this matter. However, within the Celtic realm there is a set protocol which pretty much makes arming oneself or pulling rank unnecessary, and I assume most mages also have allies where pulling rank is not necessary.

[fr.novumorganum]

___________________________

So, some questions from the uninitiated:
(please refer me to texts if you feel I wouldn't be able
to comprehend the answers without more knowledge)

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity
that you challenge is stronger than you...?

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?
________________________

That oughta get my ball rollin'...

Thanks,

MM

1. believe the info is often colored by the reciever's subjectivity, but there is a certain deep logic that resembles other experiences.

2. very, very much so. one of the biggest bonuses of the growth of these forums was learning how much was the same from person to person

3 yes, that can be done.

4. words and signs to test, my divine right to rule, godnames and forms, a sword

5. i've heard of burns, cuts, and bites

6. personality and mental state can be degraded.

[Kain]

5. i've heard of burns, cuts, and bitesI can attest to the burns and cuts personally too. I have at times experienced mini "explosive" phenomena too that would have blood vessels and skin break out of an energy discharge. Here's an example of a moderate explosive burn, although I apologise as the picture turned out to be a bit unfocused. A very mild effect, but I think it gets a point across. I am still kicking myself for being too caught up in personal practice and contemplation for even thinking to photograph my back after my past Kundalini accident. I have provided a few pictures somewhere else in the forums, however those were pictures of the scar that remained after 9 months time (and pretty much remained permanent).

Kain

(Note that this is the area after removing the erupted blood, so you are seeing the actual width of the wound, not the blood that erupted from it. )

[Fio Praeter Humanus]

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?
Yes and no. Almost every working has been different to some degree yet hold many things that are the same each and every time. It is never what you expect lets just say that.

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?
I agree with Fr.NO. Many of the things I have experienced seem so odd and I have never encountered them touched upon in all the various texts dealing with this. Yet I read others accounts and I recognize them there.

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?
I have no experience with that but others have said yes.

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?
The might of the divine. As others have said the might and right of the true self who is one with the divine. It is not a mental knowing thing but a knowing knowing thing. You either know it is a fact or you do not. Only experience can teach you that.

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity that you challenge is stronger than you...?
No spirit is stronger than you as I touched upon above, but if you have not embraced the divinity then yes it is possible. Mistakes happen.

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?
Is possible. More often than not people just go a little funny in the head. Slightly at first and then the snowball grows until you are strung out with obsessions, addictions, paranoid, and babbling to yourself full house crazy.

[league]

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?
i agree that its both Yes and No, that not all of the experiences have been the same. So differnetn results can can from them

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?
agree with both FR.NO and nero on this one

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?
i have actually once. funny how the world works doesnt it

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?
might of the true self, though nero brought up a good point with Divine.
i agree that both have some similar common bonds....but differ in many ways.

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity
that you challenge is stronger than you...?
I cant see a reason why not.....

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?
DESTROYED.....that is a strong word. death and destruction....i cant totally believe the souls energy if you truely believe can die.....but i could be wrong

[fr.novumorganum]

There is also the widely reported phenomenon of damage to electrical devices in ritual areas. I went through several stereos and dvd players before realizing what was happening.

Oh, and don't wear a good watch. Those frozen clocks aren't all hollywood effects.

[Radiant Star]

MythMath asks:

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?
2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?

There are common recognizable experiences despite individual perceptions and this is how we can often validate our workings. You often find though that within this, there are people on your wavelength who you find share very similar outcomes and often attract similar entities.

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?

Some people arrange to meet on the astral and I do know of four people who did just that and came back to tell stories so alike that they all believed they had met each other. I have not done this myself within a group setting but have met other magickians entities.

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?
5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity
that you challenge is stronger than you...?
6. Can you be literally destroyed...?

Yes, you can have anything from a feeling of being tickled to actual physical marks.
If you are truly centred in your magickal self, there is little that can touch you and most of the Great Work, I would suggest, is about the attainment and development of that self.

[Kain]

There is also the widely reported phenomenon of damage to electrical devices in ritual areas. I went through several stereos and dvd players before realizing what was happening.

Oh, and don't wear a good watch. Those frozen clocks aren't all hollywood effects.Good points I think...I get a lot of light flickerings at certain times as well. The most amazing of such phenomena by far for me was the one I had described in the past about my stereo interferance. It was during a time span that I was experimenting with elemental spirit creation. My senses were a lot dimmer back then, although I had a way with things.

What I did was evoke a previously built elemental within the stereo room. I had not noticed initially, but the stereo was forgotten switched on (i.e. with power running through it, but nothing playing). What followed, to my extreme amazement, was an interraction of about 15 minutes where the entity's answers came only when asked and directly from the stereo speakers as electromagnetic interferance. It was not words of course, but it was a very interractive series of sounds that had intuitively understandable punctuation and came out only as answers to questions or suggestions of mine, remaining silent in the meantime. What was very interesting was that the interferance was absolutely analog in it's hue, nothing like the interferances we get between various machines and cellphones etc. (plus, I live in a quite remote area and also had no interferance causing appliances thetre). This one had a huge range of sounds that were "mechanical" (i.e. it was evident that they were produced by interferance) but also very sentient in character and also quite animalistic. The interraction ended after I, quite bewildered by the spontaneous form of comunication, eventually had nothing to interract about and sent the entity away.

Kain

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Pretty much a consensus on the answers. Interesting to note answers to the Astral question, seeing as the Astral is one subforum that doesnt get any threads.


There is also the widely reported phenomenon of damage to electrical devices in ritual areas. I went through several stereos and dvd players before realizing what was happening.

Oh, and don't wear a good watch. Those frozen clocks aren't all hollywood effects.

Yup, though I find this can happen just by being magick. Fortunately the imploded DVD player and later the TV were'nt mine. The watches were though!

[Fio Praeter Humanus]

There is also the widely reported phenomenon of damage to electrical devices in ritual areas. I went through several stereos and dvd players before realizing what was happening.

Oh, and don't wear a good watch. Those frozen clocks aren't all hollywood effects.

I have never had any issues with electrical devices or watches. Although after one evocation from the Necronomicon my wife reported various poltergeist activity about the house for about a week. Nothing major but she would leave a room and return a minute later to find all the cabinets open, the same with doors, etc.

I did the working while she was out of town and never mentioned I did anything to her while she was gone so she had no idea what was going on. She thought the house was haunted.

[Radiant Star]

We had some electrical issues after a summoning of mine; it took me a few months to realize it and by that time I had forgotten which entities I had summoned so my attempts to banish failed.

It was after about eight months that I finally dug out my notes, I found the system I had used and then had to trawl through loads of entity names until I found the two summoned. After that, I was finally able to fully clear the place.
The moral of that little story is always keep notes - complete notes that is :rofl:

[hitman777]

I've let entities run around in my computer before, and the inside of my tower caught on fire. I remember being drunk and seeing smoke coming out of it, I let a friend fix it, the insides were all destroyed, shit was fused together.
He tried to accuse me of dumping beer in it...

[Kuroyagi]

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?
Yes but theyre "objectively" coloured. ;)

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?
Yes.

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?
Yes, but none I have known from the internet. There are very old astral orders that have living human members. (many are pre-diluvian=last Ice Age ie 10K yrs ago- some are trans-planetary, very few are trans-creational- yet this is all BS: magic happens in the here and now: fuck #em!, yet create new ones based on your imagination!)- the best are voodoun based nowadays.

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?
imagination, creativity, a vast situational knowledge, awareness, confidence, I am very open- this is my secret. also Im very obscure this is in my nature, yet Im very quick. basically I have a big appetite.

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity
that you challenge is stronger than you...?
yes but it isnt. before I realized that I had cuts. very funny: I drew blood every day at first from a minor demon: this is actually scary a bit: one day youll cut yourself while washing the dishes next while shaving and so on...till I learned a simple banishing ritual then. now I dont use rituals at all.

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?
yes on all levels but not by any entity. a common example that everyone knows about is from Spare who -after having been asked by some non-magicians- evoked an atavistic entity: the two ppl (who were not used to magic stuff) went crazy- one died a week afterwards, another went mad and spent the rest of his life in an asylum. thats a story. I say: it depends on what person you are.

[Naomi]

I decided to reply before reading the other answers so I could give an uncolored opinion.

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?

Some are. Depends on the nature of the experience. Sometimes, when I have an experience, another magician will inform me that my description matches their experience, in the case of Lelith, for example, who I encountered in 2001. Other times, the other magus in the room with me will see something different underneath other layers. These entities are multi-faceted. Depending on your perspective, different people will see different aspects. There is usually a cohesiveness to the experiences that indicates the identity of the entity.

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?

See above.

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?

Occasionally, yes. This depends upon each individual and the approach they take to defensive measures and how social they are.

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?

There are many techniques I as well as other sorcerers have at their disposal. One good technique is the creation of servitors who automatically defend you. This is all done through visualization which in itself brings up inherent energy manipulation and dimensional manipulation abilities you instinctually know, as simple as knowing how to breathe. You don't have to think about it too hard to make it happen. Imagination is very important.

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity
that you challenge is stronger than you...?

Yes. This has happened to me several times. Third degree burns, for instance, were experienced in some of my infernal work with imps. (powerful yet comparitively lesser demonic creatures who live in the upper reaches of the Abyss)

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?

Who you are can be destroyed, your uniqueness, which has been carefully gathered and nurtured for at least an equivalent of millions of years, can be destroyed. However, you are a part of the universe and all things, and the end of the universe cannot be fathomed in your current state. Plus, the things that can destroy you on a level like this are behind locked doors. Just be good.

(After reading the replies I felt the need to indicate I mean actual death of the spirit or soul if you prefer, which holds your unique self, and not your physical body. It is much easier to die physically than to have your unique self die)

[Ci Celli Ddu]

Any shapeshifters here? Shapeshifting is technically an invocation of an animal spirit, so it comes under summoning. Another aspect we haven't touched on yet is the evocation of familiars.

[BrotherM]

1. Are these experiences unique to each of you...?

No, there is a very real, objective reality. Some things are unique, but that is no different to normal perception of reality.

2. Are there common elements that you all can recognize...?

Yes, definately

3. Do you ever encounter each other out on the 'astral'...?

Sometimes, not often. I do not believe that is because we are not all there, I believe it is because the astral works differently in respect to time and space so it is a lot harder to meet up

4. How do you 'arm' yourselves...?

With the light of the divine...

5. Can you be physically harmed if the entity
that you challenge is stronger than you...?

Yes, I have a scar on my hand from a Goetic. Orange crackly stuff materialised and burned me... spirist :o_O:

6. Can you be literally destroyed...?

I would say killed, yes. I have almost died with spirits before. Lucifer almost killed me, I don't think he tried, I was stupid enough to look into the sun.

BrotherM

[m1thr0s]

I am constantly impressed with how I always seem to wind up in the company of people who have these stark personal evokation episodes while I mainly get ideas & energies, with very rare sprinklings of anything half so dramatic...

Not that I would change anything because I wouldn't. I think it's kind of cool actually. We're all on slightly different missions here, exploring our own natural capabilities and exploiting them for everything they're worth.

m1thr0s

[BrotherM]

I am constantly impressed with how I always seem to wind up in the company of people who have these stark personal evokation episodes while I mainly get ideas & energies, with very rare sprinklings of anything half so dramatic...

Not that I would change anything because I wouldn't. I think it's kind of cool actually. We're all on slightly different missions here, exploring our own natural capabilities and exploiting them for everything they're worth.

m1thr0s

It is encouraging though that there are very consistent themes with people's experiences of the spirit world, even though we do have different goals, beliefs and methods.

BrotherM

[Oblio]

It is encouraging though that there are very consistent themes with people's experiences of the spirit world, even though we do have different goals, beliefs and methods.

Ah yes, but I'm sure we've read similar source materials as well.. regardless of what methods/goals we come to adopt.

(Just doubting :D I think corroborating experiences are extremely important: the Qabbalah, or whatever method/s you choose, is a tool for accessing subtle realities - much like the microscope is for scientists.)

[fr.novumorganum]

True, but there are many things that were not in the books, at least the books of 5-10 years ago, that we've discovered together in lodges or on-line. I think Regardie used to even leave out all descriptions of ritual effect to avoid such implantation. 4th power of the sphynx and all that...

[fr.novumorganum]

I am constantly impressed with how I always seem to wind up in the company of people who have these stark personal evokation episodes while I mainly get ideas & energies, with very rare sprinklings of anything half so dramatic...

Not that I would change anything because I wouldn't. I think it's kind of cool actually. We're all on slightly different missions here, exploring our own natural capabilities and exploiting them for everything they're worth.

m1thr0s


I wonder if this comes from foundational disciplinary fissures between CM and Alchemy.

[Naomi]

Well as Bardon states, you, (And by you I mean anybody maybe not YOU) as an experienced magician shouldn't get any of those effects...not even enviroment effects like crackling, rain, popping noises or any other sort of activity, especially not third degree burns!

He says that if you experience those things you don't have control of the situation at all and I tend to agree with him..partially. For instance there was a couple of times I summoned Marbas. Every single time it started raining, out of the blue. So I'm thinking, hey, maybe he just likes it rainy. Later as I got more experience the phenomena happened less as I tried to control it. But then I would slack up a little bit and shit would start happening again.

It's not that it happens THAT often. I mean, there were certain conditions about the dangerous experiments I was doing that I havn't gone into here. I'm not a careful person and I tend to deal with the most horrible ideas ever. It always works for me because that is the way of mica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_%28mythology%29). These experiments were repeated over and over for years three or four times a week. Looking back I can't say for sure there was phenomenon because I wasn't looking for it. Popping sounds, sudden storms, weird dreams, they all were a part of me, or so I thought. It took a number of experiments which involved other people for me to come to realize that these are indicators that something is right or wrong about a working...and that it is as easy as pie to influence the world around you with your mind.

Hell maybe it only works for me. I've always told people ANYONE can do it, and tap into it, and I'm sticking with that story, because it only seems fair, and very possible.

Hitman it's so funny you did that to your computer. I cannot tell you how many times I have ruined a computer just by...thinking about it.

Not mine of course...no I seem to have self preservation and survival skills down quite well.

But there was this one time I was so mad at Greg and his computer got fried about two times. I have a great connection with hardware and software, just comes intuitively, which is handy for you know...stuff.

So probably I could try and mind meld with the internet and see what kind of astral life lives on it.

[Ci Celli Ddu]

So probably I could try and mind meld with the internet and see what kind of astral life lives on it.

If its anything like Limewire it's probably mostly pornographic...:D

[Kain]

Well as Bardon states, you, (And by you I mean anybody maybe not YOU) as an experienced magician shouldn't get any of those effects...not even enviroment effects like crackling, rain, popping noises or any other sort of activity, especially not third degree burns!Certainly. However control of the situation at hand is also always relative to the natural prowess of the principle you are directly tapping to. The higher one goes and directly tries to convey things, the greater the intensities one puts oneself to control. So even though I agree with such an assertion, in practice it is quite hard to discern exactly what conflicts of power pertain to someone else's work and position in order to judge his/her objective level of control. The best that can be said is that one is struggling to control something that until now has been very lofty and ellusive...but in what heights that principle is, that is almost impossible to say for sure when being but an observer.

Kain

[BrotherM]

Well as Bardon states, you, (And by you I mean anybody maybe not YOU) as an experienced magician shouldn't get any of those effects...not even enviroment effects like crackling, rain, popping noises or any other sort of activity, especially not third degree burns!

He says that if you experience those things you don't have control of the situation at all <sniped>

With regards to entities, I tend to think that the need for magickians to control a situation is born out of fear, and that in itself is a failing as a magickian should not fear. My preference is to let chaos reign and to exist in it and experience the universe as it naturally exists. If one is afraid of chaos, one should not deal with chaotic entities. Perhaps what I am saying is that I prefer loose control, not needing to have the the black-box in hand and being able to flow with the energies I contact.

Now, my burnt hand was a result of total noobishness and loss of control. I still have many situations when I need to apply more control than I would like, but then I am a universal noob:o_O: .

I tend to totally agree with Kain, there are some things where humility is the only way, but those things are more universal and not the kinds of things I'd be putting in the triangle...

Bro-M

[Naomi]

Honestly I didn't even think it was possible at the time to get burns so I wasn't guarding against it and I was doing some really foolish stuff, though fun and funny at the same time. Ah, loose control, as you put it.

But when I look back, you know what was present? Hesitance. I think it's only doubt in my own mind that lead to that, just an instant.

If one knows and feels one is a god without a trace of doubt that seems to be a key in evocation. I havn't had any problems with any Goetics or other entities really since applying this meme. That and like you said, an abcense of fear; I will personally push that one further and say I have found having absolutely no fear is necessary for evocations, contrary to what many other magicians say.

I learned this from watching Die Ring Der Nibelungen...

::looks around for any sign of Kuroyagi to pounce on the spelling:::

Well the only way Siegfried breaks the ring of fire to claim the fallen valkyrie Brunhilde it's because he has no fear. (At least, that's how I remember it happening)

I tell yah you find occult inspiration in the strangest places...

[Kain]

But when I look back, you know what was present? Hesitance. I think it's only doubt in my own mind that lead to that, just an instant.

If one knows and feels one is a god without a trace of doubt that seems to be a key in evocation. I must agree that the frame of mind affects the process a lot and that fear does contribute to a lot of factors that can make such a failure all; the more possible. Quite a good point Naomi. However I don't think it is the *defining* element of failure in such situations, albeit it is a very big factor. Same goes for a squarely placed certainty and knowledge of one's "divine right"...

Kain