Plastic Shamanism [Archive] - Abrahadabra Forums

Naomi

01-24-2007, 10:59 AM

Ugh, they are awful.

There was a guy in my atelier who was blonde and blue eyed and he told me one day "Oh I go to a sweat lodge every Sunday for my Alcoholics Anonymous group, we practice the Lakota religion."

I'm like "Oh...so which of the gods do you like?" Genuinely curious here, though I was expecting the standard White Buffalo Calf Woman line. A longshot but I was interested. And he goes:

"I follow our father who is in heaven and Jesus Christ."

I'm like shocked. Seriously. LOL

Sometimes these people just don't even try.

silentjohn

01-24-2007, 11:05 AM

Ci Celli Ddu

01-24-2007, 11:06 AM

Yeah, I gave it a go thinking I could do my own visualisation while I was there, but the chanting of Tibetan mantras mixed with hippy rhymes kind of blew that idea out of the water. Ugh.

Naomi

01-24-2007, 02:08 PM

I've been to one sweat up in Tulalip that was held by the daughter of one of the head families.

A sweat traditionally has little fanfare.

Anyhow, how the Samish gal did it, she just heated the rocks and then everyone took turns saying something. Nobody really cared what was said. There's a chant in the language of the person leading. Then you just sit there. Then you take a break and go back in.

They have their own magic system and nobody is supposed to talk about it because of what happened with the Europeans. This attitude is encouraged by the existence of plastic shamans. The sweat was adopted by the coastal tribes later on from the other tribes to the east.

Okazaki Castle

01-24-2007, 02:23 PM

I like and approve of the fact that they at least are trying to wake up and learn more, even if they haven't found their way much yet or have much ability in thier chosen line. But they're trying usually, which is more the majority do. Keep on trying, and they'll get somewhere cool...

I used to teach courses in things like meditation and Reiki and stuff, and was also involved in an esoteric bookstore for while, so I met a whole range of these people. Mostly they'd either being younger kids on a hippy or martial arts trip or middle aged women looking for a new or more satisfying direction in life. Didn't real mind them, and it is fun to hang with such crowds at times, if only to see where they're coming from.

Then again, I've never been very concerned about how authentic or dedicated a person is esoterically speaking. I just like them to have a good value structure and for the girls to be pretty. Beyond that I'm easy and whatever floats your boat. If you're keeping it real in life in general, then the esoteric stuff will follow that focus and way of being in time. And, as I said, it's nice to see them trying...

Another important point is that being overly open and accepting one is able to access paths excluded to most because of their own closed-mindedness. Jasmuheen, the public face of breatharianism, was one such. I met her with a friend of mine when she came to give a seminar in London in 2001 and thought she was a very accurate, very positive, very strong person. Of great compassion also. Sure, she didn't understand the dark side, and would prbbly reject such things out of hand, but that was her path and role. And what she taught and opened for me was invaluable, in more ways than one. Hence, it was useful accepting her position and where she was coming from. I find that a lot of the stuff I've acquired has been a result of this more open, accepting attitude to pretty much most people, things and paths.

Though, admittedly, I do prefer people I can be more open with myself, ie in terms of my own nature and path. The esoterically very aware, plus stoners and dark pathers (like mafia, smugglers and stuff) are best for that I find. The fluffier ones, what the hell, they're cute and alright to hang with, so don't really mind them. Especially if they're pretty and in their twenties :) :cool:

all the best,
Oazaki.

Naomi

01-24-2007, 02:55 PM

Well, I was going to say that originally but, sometimes you just want to kill people, Oazaki. And by you I mean me.

But yeah overall it's ok to be a doofus.

The only exception I make is for people who are doofuses and act arrogantly without having the skills to justify said arrogance, and then people who are just outright mean to me when I havn't crossed them.

I will give that to them. They are trying and that is far more than most people do.

Okazaki Castle

01-24-2007, 03:03 PM

Mmm, yes, it is a matter of some discretion and judgement when you know that it would be but a thought for you and you have some retard idiot being stupid and annoying to your face.

I quite like arrogance if it's done with style. What personally gets me going usually is people being in my way, people being unhelpful or grossly inefficient, or their being blatantly offensive or disrespectful to me or mine. Then I usually waft them away, you could say... Don't usually find those flaws amongst the new age crowd though I have to say. For all their fluffiness...

all da best,
Oaz.

Ci Celli Ddu

01-24-2007, 03:09 PM

It's up to the individual to use his or her discretion, and fools will always be parted from their money easily. But Plastic Shamans usually prove to be really insecure if approached in an informal manner, and tend to expect everyone to treat them like gurus. They don't know how to react when they meet a real personality, and are rarely of any use if thrown into the deep end.

Naomi

01-24-2007, 03:20 PM

Hmmm I don't think we're talking about the plastic shaman, O. See, that guy who was a Christian-Lakota watchmacallit was really rude and abrasive to me. After he learned I was a Satanist (That's my cover to the regular humans) he started talking loudly about god and jesus and how atheists have no one to thank when something good happens. The whole european thing I can totally ignore, since I'm a halfbreed myself and you actually see white people being adopted in by tribes quite often who are very honorable. I'm no racist.
The worst part was he was also the nude model for the class so he wasted everyone's time talking loudly and then he would bring his guitar in and play (badly) while we were all trying to work between breaks and sometimes cutting into the modelling time for which he was being paid for.

Art is my addiction so that was particularily annoying.

As for arrogance done with style. Don't even get me started on Professor Snape.

Okazaki Castle

01-24-2007, 03:30 PM

Yeah, agreed CCD. They're not much use for throwing into the deep end. Keep them as door policy for the beginners to start out with, saves us having to talk to such about these matters. When we usually couldn't be bothered and stuff.

As regards our relative position to them and how we treat each other, they only respect, can relate to and are able to understand light and fluffy. The darker side of things is usally evil and to be avoided to them so you need to intriduce it via the Dalai Lama is you want to talk of such topics (reference Stephen K Hayes there, for example, or his connections to Aum). Or some otehr such approach. Following the light, they're a bit brain washed by it I find, as in 'This is GOOD, we've been told so, because it is of the LIGHT. These entities are BAD, they are of the DARK, we must avoid them... but it is ok to destroy them, bind them, banish them, and so on...'

Unless of course you don't care about getting on with some of them and just want to have some fun, in which case, tell them the truth straight up and uncut... :laugh:

Oaz.

Ci Celli Ddu

01-24-2007, 03:33 PM

and then he would bring his guitar in and play (badly)

I hate it when they do that. It's funny though watching the Plastic Shaman's clients pretending to enjoy it. Funny for a few moments anyway. As a musician there's a limit to how much I can endure before violence ensues.

Okazaki Castle

01-24-2007, 03:36 PM

As for arrogance done with style. Don't even get me started on Professor Snape.

Ah, but he is an idiot also. Unjustified as you said. Count Pavlovich Ignatieff is a personal favourite of mine in the arrogance with style line. More presently, I've got to give Laurent some sort of award or something for being the most consistently stylishly arrogant in lots of suave and stylish ways. It's like a game to him to see how much better than everyone else he can do it... he is very good though, it must be said...

As for anyone who gives you irritation, let 'em have it babes! Oh, whoops, you already do, no allowed necessary... :rofl: :D

bacci,
Oazaki.

Ci Celli Ddu

01-24-2007, 03:48 PM

Nah, Snape gets my vote as well. Especially if you meet him in real life as I have (Alan Rickman). What they hide on film is just how tall that guy is, a head above me and Im 6'. Bruce Willis must have been standing on a box to look him in the eye in Die Hard. Anyway, Snape's no Plastic Shaman.

Naomi

01-24-2007, 06:34 PM

zomgzor, you met Alan Rickman?!!?

:O

Snape's faking being the bad guy Okazaki, everyone knows he's just doing that to protect Harry. :P

Ci Celli Ddu

01-24-2007, 06:49 PM

zomgzor, you met Alan Rickman?!!?

:O

Snape's faking being the bad guy Okazaki, everyone knows he's just doing that to protect Harry. :P

Heave you read the last book? It doesnt look good for Snape, what with him killing Dumbledore. A double bluff?

Naomi

01-24-2007, 07:45 PM

Yep I read it. I still think Snape is a good guy!

See they were in deep cover trying to get Voldemort. Dumbledore probably gave Snape the go ahead to take the umm whatchamacallit oath and then in the next book there will be a "Surprise! Dumbledore used some outrageously rare and phoenix related potion to come back from the dead because he knew that was a risk so they could catch Voldemort!" which Hermione will discover in the massive library in some dusty underated book at Hogwart's.

Okazaki Castle

01-25-2007, 06:51 AM

ok, true i don't know too much about harry potter...

Guess it prbbly has some cool bits in it tho :)

Dragon

01-26-2007, 06:16 PM

Just for kicks, Instead of a plastic Jesus, I have a little plastic Odin for my dashboard...hehe

~D~

Talkingfox

01-26-2007, 06:38 PM

Just for kicks, Instead of a plastic Jesus, I have a little plastic Odin for my dashboard...hehe

~D~

Hmmmm wouldn't that tend to only protect against crashes on one side of the car???:laugh:

MythMath

01-26-2007, 07:32 PM

But he always has an eye out for him... ;)

Ratatosk

01-26-2007, 07:36 PM

Hmmmm wouldn't that tend to only protect against crashes on one side of the car???:laugh:

Not to mention an horrific lack of depth perception!

Ci Celli Ddu

01-26-2007, 07:51 PM

Just for kicks, Instead of a plastic Jesus, I have a little plastic Odin for my dashboard...hehe

Standing up or hanging by one leg from the mirror? :D

Kazahel

01-26-2007, 08:05 PM

Hey so what is real shamanism then?

I got this from wiki but what do you guys think shamanism is?

Shamanism refers to a range of traditional beliefs and practices similar to Animism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism) that claim the ability to diagnose and cure human suffering and, in some societies, the ability to cause suffering. This is believed to be accomplished by traversing the axis mundi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi) and forming a special relationship with, or gaining control over, spirits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_being). Shamans have been credited with the ability to control the weather, divination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divination), the interpretation of dreams, astral projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection), and traveling to upper and lower worlds. Shamanistic traditions have existed throughout the world since prehistoric times.

Some anthropologists and religion scholars define a shaman as an intermediary between the natural and spiritual world, who travels between worlds in a trance state. Once in the spirit world, the shaman would commune with the spirits for assistance in healing, hunting or weather management. Ripinsky-Naxon describes shamans as, “People who have a strong interest in their surrounding environment and the society of which they are a part.”
Other anthropologists critique the term "shamanism", arguing that it is a culturally specific word and institution and that by expanding it to fit any healer from any traditional society it produces a false unity between these cultures and creates a false idea of an initial human religion predating all others. However, others say that these anthropologists simply fail to recognize the commonalities between otherwise diverse traditional societies.

Shamanism is based on the premise that the visible world is pervaded by invisible forces or spirits that affect the lives of the living. In contrast to animism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism) and animatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animatism), which any and usually all members of a society practice, shamanism requires specialized knowledge or abilities. It could be said that shamans are the experts employed by animists or animist communities. Shamans are not, however, often organized into full-time ritual or spiritual associations, as are priests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest).

Dragon

01-27-2007, 01:34 AM

Well, the word shamanism has come to encapsulate a wide range of indiginous practices that generally hold a style of village or tribal sorcery involving animals spirits, plant spirits, weather magic, divination through the use of drums, rattles, art, trance, exorcisms, healings etc etc etc.

However to be a stickler, shamanism the word defines a specific form of practice from the Siberian region.

~D~

Ci Celli Ddu

01-27-2007, 01:46 AM

Yes, the Evenks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evenks) to be precise. A fascinating place, Siberia. I'd love to visit it. An immense wilderness and home to the ancestors of Native Europeans and Native North Americans (http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/content_objectid=13502852_method=full_siteid=50082 _headline=-Genetics-make-Welsh-distinct-name_page.html) alike.

Kazahel

01-27-2007, 03:09 AM

Yeah I've heard something like that before.. thanks though. :)

But like what was said above.. they are not the only actual people that hold kinda shamanic beliefs though are they? Like anotherwords.. the Aboriginal people for example.. their culture is older I thought, and they seem to have pretty similar beliefs, if that's the right word. Like I'm guessing they wouldve had their version of shamanism..

So actual 'shamanism'(in practise)or something shamanic, must be more than just something coming just from Siberia yes?

Also I would love to read a list of things that real shamans can do... like what their skills actually are.. because I dont know what to believe on the net... so what do you guys think 'real' shamans do... like can they astral travel really good or shapeshift or what? Like what skills would you of needed to of been picked the shaman of the group by these.. kinda shamanic cultures?

Thanks in advance.

Ci Celli Ddu

01-27-2007, 03:18 AM

I think the entry for Shamanism on wiki is as good a definition of what Shamanism is today as any. Despite the fact that the real bona fide saman was Siberian, today it's Native Americans, especially from South America, that are conventionally refered to as "real" shamans. Mongolians and Siberians too, of course, but very few people have actually gone to the trouble of going to Siberia and Mongolia to visit them.

Kazahel

01-27-2007, 04:46 AM

.. today it's Native Americans, especially from South America, that are conventionally refered to as "real" shamans. Conventionally yes.. And I guess because some people dont know enough about the Aboriginal culture.. they dont know if that/or they should be classed as real shamans too? I mean dont forget them... unless you dont consider them as "shamanic".. Do you think the Aboriginal culture had kinda shamanic beliefs by the way? Like do you think they had "shamans"... if you know what I mean?

Mongolians and Siberians too, of course, but very few people have actually gone to the trouble of going to Siberia and Mongolia to visit them. Have you been? Like I'm guessing you have and I'd love to hear all about it.. I'm very interested in that stuff hey. We used to travel around Australia when I was a kid looking at all these sacred sites and the Wandjina's etc... which I always found interesting(sometimes I think I shouldve called out before I approached.. hehe).. but we never got the chance to go to Siberia or Mongolia. :no: I was lucky enough to see most of Europe.. but I didnt get to those other countries. So I'd love to hear about your experiences. :)

Ci Celli Ddu

01-27-2007, 04:59 AM

Have you been? Like I'm guessing you have and I'd love to hear all about it..

Nope, not been yet. I don't generally like traveling to countries where the authorities try to screw you.

I don't think anyone will argue with the fact that the Aborigines have the oldest living culture in the world, but their religion is not refered to as Shamanism. It wouldn't do them any justice to stick the Dreamtime into a box called Shamanism. I think Bruce Chatwin made a pretty convincing argument in his book The Songlines that the Dreamtime represents the original spiritual and mystical concepts of our species.

Kazahel

01-27-2007, 05:16 AM

Nope, not been yet. I don't generally like traveling to countries where the authorities try to screw you. Oh sorry, I must've got the wrong impression then. :dull:

I don't think anyone will argue with the fact that the Aborigines have the oldest living culture in the world, but their religion is not refered to as Shamanism. It wouldn't do them any justice to stick the Dreamtime into a box called Shamanism. I think Bruce Chatwin made a pretty convincing argument in his book The Songlines that the Dreamtime represents the original spiritual and mystical concepts of our species. I dont want to stick the Dreamtime into a box... I just want to point out that if they had like their version of the.. witch doctor(who could also point the bone to cause death.. for example).... then I think he sounds kinda like a "shaman" to me. And considering the culture is very old like you say..

I mean.... what do you call what the Aboriginal version of the Witch Doctor does then?

Ci Celli Ddu

01-27-2007, 05:21 AM

I dont want to stick the Dreamtime into a box...
I wasn't implying you were

I mean.... what do you call what the Aboriginal version of the Witch Doctor does then?

Magic?

Kazahel

01-27-2007, 05:28 AM

Magic?
Yeah I guess, but I would add the... K.

They both are pretty similar to me I guess. Is there really much difference between this Aboriginal magick and "shamanism" though? Or is the Dreamtime in a class of its own.

Ci Celli Ddu

01-27-2007, 05:46 AM

Yeah I guess, but I would add the... K.

They both are pretty similar to me I guess. Is there really much difference between this Aboriginal magick and "shamanism" though?

Real actual Siberian/Mongolian Shamanism has a much more complex cosmology than the Dreaming, more akin to the Western Tradition in its use and construction of psychocosms, orientation (correlating elements, directions, deities) and the various types of soul and spirit associated with the human being (for instance, a human has at least three types of soul).

I don't know what simularities or differences exist between the Dreaming and Native American magic. To me the Dreaming seems pretty unique. If you were going to start a thread on Aboriginal magic then I guess Shamanism would be the subforum for it. The same would go for African Animism, I guess, which just goes to show that "Shamanism" is used mostly to mean "Tribal Stuff". (Hmmm, I wonder where Voodoo would go...)

Kazahel

01-27-2007, 08:27 AM

Tribal stuff.. hmmm.

"The belief in the Rainbow Snake, a personification of fertility, increase (richness in propoagation of plants and animals) and rain, is common throughout Australia. It is a creator of human beings, having life-giving powers that send conception spirits to all the waterholes. It is responsible for regenerating rains, and also for storms and floods when it acts as an agent of punishment against those who transgress the law or upset it in any way. It swallows people in great floods and regurgitates their bones, which turn into stone, thus documenting such events. Rainbow snakes can also enter a man and endow him with magical powers, or leave 'little rainbows', their progeny, within his body which will make him ail and die. As the regenerative and reproductive power in nature and human beings, it is the main character in the region's major rituals." (from page 47, "Journey in Time", Reed 1993). http://www.aboriginalartonline.com/culture/rainbow.php

So that(whats in bold)would be an example of Aboriginal magick which kinda comes under shamanism somewhere?

It's funny hey... because I had this weird semi lucid dream once, with rainbow serpents(which were like pythons)in it(and a lion!), and they basically went inside me and ran down my arms(the lion went into the chest kinda). It was pretty trippy..the heads finished on the backs of my hands so that my hands were the heads. Anyway so I went looking for lots of info afterwards, to see what it all meant, and I was pleased to find that Australia is mainly into the rainbow serpents(right where I live too..(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagyl), so the dream felt connected to my home kinda.. which was a bonus. It was really quite trippy though because I didnt know anything about rainbow serpents before... its not really something they teach or talk about much over here hey.. which is a pitty. But yeah.. it was all pretty interesting.

Anyway... I think I'm getting off topic arnt I. Sorry about that. :)

Ci Celli Ddu

01-27-2007, 01:06 PM

So that(whats in bold)would be an example of Aboriginal magick which kinda comes under shamanism somewhere?

Sounds more like Voodoo to me. Have you ever asked an Aborigine what they call their magic? (I'm in Old North Wales, not New South Wales :D )

Anyway, I want to hear more about Dragon's Plastic Odin (does it shake its ass?) :laugh:

Kazahel

01-27-2007, 08:14 PM

Sounds more like Voodoo to me. Have you ever asked an Aborigine what they call their magic? (I'm in Old North Wales, not New South Wales :D )
Oh I know your not in Australia. :) And no.. I havent been able to ask any that actually know anything along those lines yet. Like most that I know just sell weed hey(I should get out more though).. and Aboriginal magick is not really a subject that I can just jump into conversation with. And alot of those ways are being forgotten too.. which is kinda why I started to read about ' Keeping the Wanjina's Fresh'.

Anyway I did a quick seach on the net and I think they called their magic ' purri purri '... but I dont know for sure..

Here's a link where I read that though. :)

http://www.newagetravel.com/quinkan.shtml

And I found this part pretty cool.. just as another example of some Aboriginal magick.. (which I wouldnt really call Voodoo, because they dont call it that).

Besides hunting and initiation, other rock art had been painted for more personal reasons, such as love charms. If a love magic spell were done correctly, it could empower a man to get any woman he wanted, and she would not be able to resist. Allan told us it didn't matter that some paintings were done on top of others. "The magic happens while the painting is being made" he said. Even more sinister were spells that could "sing someone to death." Rock art that shows people inverted or lying on their side is evidence of black magic.
:)

Talkingfox

01-28-2007, 02:34 AM

OK...according to the Shaman (shamans?? shamen?) up here who are very closely related to Siberians both culturally and genetically, shamanism requires that the practitioner DIE 3 times and traverse the other/underworld to gain a 'map' so to speak. Drowning under the ice seems to be a popular method.....

Kazahel

01-28-2007, 03:39 AM

Talkingfox

01-28-2007, 08:00 AM

So if someone had died a few times and saw some stuff afterwards they might of been thought of as shaman material?

I don't think that's QUITE how it works:)

Usually kids with aptitude are taken under the wing of an elder. The "deaths" can be figurative via use of herbs or whatnot OR actual near death experiences. Usually at least ONE of the afore mentioned 3 is supposed to be of the physical variety. I've heard of some really hardcore razors edge kind of risk taking with the Inupiat folk. Amazingly tough and also gentle people.

Kazahel

01-28-2007, 10:11 AM

Usually kids with aptitude are taken under the wing of an elder. The "deaths" can be figurative via use of herbs or whatnot OR actual near death experiences. Usually at least ONE of the afore mentioned 3 is supposed to be of the physical variety So these kids that are taken under the wing.. what kinds of things can they do better than the ones that arnt taken under the wing? Like I thought I read somewhere that they were just the ones that were better with their dreaming skills, or something like that.. so the ones that were maybe shape shifting in dreams(or lucid dreaming), just for example, mighta been taken under the wing of an elder?

And I think I understand what you mean about the herbs.. you mean like taking something like datura, that could be considered a 'death' ... for the shaman.

Talkingfox

01-28-2007, 10:24 AM

So these kids that are taken under the wing.. what kinds of things can they do better than the ones that arnt taken under the wing? Like I thought I read somewhere that they were just the ones that were better with their dreaming skills, or something like that.. so the ones that were maybe shape shifting in dreams(or lucid dreaming), just for example, mighta been taken under the wing of an elder?

And I think I understand what you mean about the herbs.. you mean like taking something like datura, that could be considered a 'death' ... for the shaman.

There's a huge long list of stuff that the elders look for in younglings...and lucid dreaming is indeed one of them. Calling animals is another along with precognition, exceptional dance or drum skills, inate healing skills and a whole raft of other stuff that isn't spoken about much.

Yeah I'm sure datura would work...pity it doesn't grow here.

Kazahel

01-28-2007, 10:58 AM

There's a huge long list of stuff that the elders look for in younglings...and lucid dreaming is indeed one of them. Calling animals is another along with precognition, exceptional dance or drum skills, inate healing skills and a whole raft of other stuff that isn't spoken about much. Yeah I thought so(about the lucid dreaming).. thanks for all that. :)

Yeah I'm sure datura would work...pity it doesn't grow here. Yeah I just had a look in wiki under shamanism, and it sure has Datura in there. I mean it is one of the oldest drugs hey. :)

It's a pity you dont get it over where you are... We get it over here.. well we get Brugmansia... like I have a large white angel trumpet tree growing in my backyard. It's very pretty and truly amazing stuff(I had to try it hey, lol). And out of every drug I've done so far, that was the best and most fun. Which I read was quite rare... like alot of people freak out on it apparently.. but I was lucky enough to get euphoria for about 3 days(I added alittle weed to get that). ;) And it sure was a great christmas day that year.. I even saw a Cheshire cat!, who only sat on a tree stump though..

Hmm.

Dragon

01-28-2007, 11:03 AM

I was having a talk some years back with a research associate for the Center for Southeast Asian Studys at Berkley, and she was describing some of the different ways that death had a role in sorcery in SE and NE Asia...she was a real purist in terms, so she only used the term shamanism to describe the Siberian practitioners...and aside from drowning and ritual use of various poisons, she also talked about people hanging themselves from trees, jumping off of cliffs, and particularly in the case of the shapeshifters - being torn apart by an animal. When the fate of a village is on your head...I guess a girls gotta have her standards.

~D~

p.s. My Plastic Odin only shakes when I put him on my wife's ass. :yes:

Ci Celli Ddu

01-28-2007, 01:42 PM

I was having a talk some years back with a research associate for the Center for Southeast Asian Studys at Berkley, and she was describing some of the different ways that death had a role in sorcery in Se and NE Asia...she was a real purist in terms so she only used the term shamanism to describe the Siberian practitioners...and aside from drowning and ritual use of various poisons, she also talked about people hanging themselves from trees, jumping off of cliffs, and particularly in the case of the shapeshifters - being torn apart by an animal. When the fate of a village is on your head...I guess a girls gotta have her standards.

A theme that runs through most traditions. Or if you're a Plastic Shaman, just get a group together and charge them money to take a mild amount of hayaguasca.

Ci Celli Ddu

01-28-2007, 05:50 PM

Speaking of shaman...a piece I just finished of one of our local boys...

Nice. What do they (the shamans) call themselves over there? And who are the Native Alaskans, btw?

Talkingfox

01-28-2007, 05:59 PM

Nice. What do they (the shamans) call themselves over there? And who are the Native Alaskans, btw?

They call themselves Shaman at least in English. There are quite a few differnt languages up here and about a bazillion dialects of those, so I'm not sure of the terms in the native tongues.

I'm not clear on what you mean by who are they? There are 4 distinct ethnic/language groups of the natives here, plus the aforementioned bazillion dialects within that.

Ci Celli Ddu

01-28-2007, 06:05 PM

I'm not clear on what you mean by who are they?.

Well I mean they're not Apache, Lakota, Ojibwa, Crow etc. What are they called in English? My superficial knowledge of Native Americans doesn't cover Alaska, apart from the Inuit (assuming you have Inuit there too)

Talkingfox

01-28-2007, 06:40 PM

ok the Inuit tribes are: Inupiat, Yupik and Chupik
The Aluet are from the aluetian chain (of course) and the Alutiq are from the area around kodiak island.
South Central are the Denenaii and the Eyak

Interior are Athabascan who are closely genetically related to the Ojibway. There are also 11 differnet languages and 22 dialects within those.

Southeast Panhandle are Tlingit, Haida and Tsimsian. These are the only groups that carve totem poles and the like.

Hope that helps some

Ci Celli Ddu

01-28-2007, 06:44 PM

Thanks :)
The Aluet are the only ones I'd heard of before, but I didn't know they were Alaskan.

Kazahel

01-28-2007, 07:12 PM

...and aside from drowning and ritual use of various poisons, she also talked about people hanging themselves from trees, jumping off of cliffs, and particularly in the case of the shapeshifters - being torn apart by an animal.

So it sounds as if the shamans were the ones that wanted to suicide but lived.. Or more like the ones who liked to take the risks and didnt fear death.. I wonder what the more modern type would be like... Like do you think a 'death' could also be like a heroin overdose for example? It's not traditional I know... but kinda similar still yeah?

With the shapeshifters... I thought I read that you had to dream of your animal first and then the(native american I think it was) had to go out to hunt it in order to take and wear its skin. Or something like that. I remember reading something along those lines because I was shapeshifting in dreams lots and I wanted to know what other cultures thought about it. With my experience I used to get hunted and attacked by a creature quite often which usually gave me nightmares. Anyway I got annoyed at being hunted(because I was lucid dreaming very well)and so I really focused on hunting it back. And the next time I dreamt of this wolf creature I went lucid and cut its head off with my katana. And I never dreamt of it again. But what I found afterwards was that I could shapeshift into it.. and slowly I learned to shapeshift fully into a wolf in my dreams by simply running on all fours. It's pretty easy. Anyway after I was given the lion in a similar but different dream I found out that I couldnt shift into a wolf anymore because now I just shift into the lion instead. Like whenever I run now in dreams I shift to lion... which is pretty trippy because I was like a dream wolf for over 10yrs. I've also recently found that when I was in the water in dreams, I shifted into a crocodile and a great white shark. So I look at those forms as like when the lucid lion swims kinda... or when it hunts.

Anyway.. that is all probably more suited in the dreaming threads... but thats how I learned to shapeshift. :)

How did you guys learn to?

Ci Celli Ddu

01-28-2007, 07:19 PM

So it sounds as if the shamans were the ones that wanted to suicide but lived.. Or more like the ones who liked to take the risks and didnt fear death..

No, I wouldn't say so. It's not about wanting to end your life, it's about becoming.

Anyway.. that is all probably more suited in the dreaming threads... but thats how I learned to shapeshift. :)

How did you guys learn to?

I'd move this to "Summoning entities" (seeing as shapeshifting is a kind of invocation) or start a new thread. As for dreaming, not everyone shapeshifts in dreams, some of us do it when we're awake. It's an interesting subject, but this thread is about Plastic Shamanism. Future visitors looking for some insights into shapeshifting aren't likely to visit this thread.

Kazahel

01-28-2007, 07:43 PM

No, I wouldn't say so. It's not about wanting to end your life, it's about becoming. I agree. Which is why I kinda finished that line with this one.. 'Or more like the ones who liked to take the risks and didnt fear death..' I just kinda threw in the word suicide for a laugh(it creates a funny picture). I have a strange sense of humor I guess. :D

I'd move this to "Summoning entities" (seeing as shapeshifting is a kind of invocation) or start a new thread. It's an interesting subject, but this thread is about Plastic Shamanism. Future visitors looking for some insights into shapeshifting aren't likely to visit this thread. Yes true. And I would love someone to start a thread on how they learned to shapeshift.. I would really love to read how others have managed it and learned to do it too.. :)

Ci Celli Ddu

01-28-2007, 08:26 PM

Shapeshifting (http://forums.abrahadabra.com/showthread.php?p=12754#post12754)

Amur

01-29-2007, 01:58 PM

Shamanism is a synchronicity between the below and the above. Shamans deal with both benevolent and malevolent spirts. There where the magickian is protected by his own aura against possession, the shaman dives into Qlippoth without that kimd of defense and becomes a source of abuse and 'evilness' from spirits which manifests as a severe kind of mental insanity which goes on from a few months to many years. This is the calling of the shaman. There is also another calling which is that of nature or the planet consciousness. Most shamans have been bit by the Snake and rides with it as shown in many symbolic pictures with the shaman having a snake in his hand. What's a common vibration of shamanism is that of a death-vibe. Someone wrote that she wouldn't wish a shamanism initiation even to her worst enemy, neither would I.

Being severely traumatized to and over a point of no-return(meaning that you are well beyond any help), looping it in on itself. Feels like being cursed and blessed at the same time without knowing what the hell is going on. "Your whole life is ruined" and you are stripped bare, being mangled with something coming from every direction which makes you fight for your life. If you survive then you might become a shaman, depending on the mood of the claiming spirit.

Lord's curse might also give results into that of shamanism, but from a different cultural perspective.

There of course comes many benefits in this path also, like a werd sense of humour at lifes twists and turns :laugh:

Drakonach

02-26-2008, 06:50 PM

That doesn't sound like any shamanism that I've heard of. Although it does sound as though some sort of new shamanism conglomeration by way of the Carrol practices.

There are quite a few of the Domus Kaotica that are artists in the magickal arts and have a bit of exploratory training in the shamanic arts and none have stated anything of this nature as to this sort of initiatory process.. To me this does sound more like a magickal hazing than an initiation. But hey different strokes for different folks you know and what doesn't kill you does only serve to make you stronger.

I like to think of myself as quite the left hand khaote and there are quite a few that can attest to that. I've delved quite deep into the depths of the shells and I discovered that its quite more beneficial to befriend the beings of the shells, than to make yourself a punching bag, although some beings do require a bit of abuse before befriendment.

All I can say is enjoy the journey, because its not the destination thats important, but the knowledge you gain on the way.

Amur

03-01-2008, 06:33 PM

I'm starting more and more to think that the shamanism path is actually a person that is severely traumatized(or has much karma to clean up) who gets a premature kundalini awakening, which in turn is a bitch when one has too many things to go through. Takes time to master the practice as there are so many other forces that are acting through oneself that it's quite hard.

m1thr0s

03-02-2008, 04:20 AM

one of the problems with this Amur is that the term itself has become such a catch-all that we are really talking about maybe several dozens of things as if they were all one thing...and they are not. I understand the type of shamanism you are referring to but in other places we find so-called shamans acting in the capacity of the plant-alchemists of the ancient world, whose job it was to understand what plants did what and in some cases carried vast libraries of botanical and pharmaceutical knowledge around in their heads...not quite the same thing as what you are describing which is more the wacked-out trance variety of shamans whose job it was (chiefly) to negotiate deals with the spirit world to avert disasters or bestow blessings...

So I can identify the characters you are describing but it isn't all the same thing. Of the class of shamans you speak of I can see your point though...many of these people would seem to have been stricken with some kind of psychological differential to begin with...maybe we would call this schizophrenia today or perhaps a range of psycho-neurological imbalances that would wind up positioning certain people *between the worlds* as the phrase usually goes...Certainly these people would seem to have suffered more for their *callings* and logically profited less...particularly inasmuch as they might also be facing death from the herd in cases where their negotiations might have fallen through etc...

What we probably really need here is a more exact language for defining these different classes of so-called Shaman, since there are many more than just these two defined thus far...

m1thr0s

Amur

03-02-2008, 07:32 AM

Indeed, there are many different classes of shamanism all over the world, and originally the word shaman comes from siberia. Still there are some common factors in shamanism like the drum to access different trance-states, which is found all over the world, and then a shamanic illness at the beginning of it's stage, lasting from several years to the whole life-time. Many books illustrate that the illness comes when black shaman spirits make the chosen one crazy and through this teaches the future-shaman different things. To be honest, it's quite a horrible procedure and feels like being doomed from every place. You brought up some good points m1thr0s..

Naomi

03-02-2008, 09:54 AM

There's a good reason for almost everything and the profit from the sort of shamanism you describe, m1thr0s is quite worth chasing after, but you have to really demand a lot from the kind of spirits you deal with and you have to know how to place value on life. Another thing is the job's only good for those who are destined to have it. Destiny is predetermined by choice, choices made before you even incarnate, so there's no use in pretending you can be one, you'll just end up like any other new age business person who sells fake shit to the masses. A real shaman likes what he does and doesn't gripe about the consequences (too much) because deep down they know it's just another turn in the page of the story of their macrocosmic life, and knowing that, holding onto such a wide gap of experience is worth more than any materialistic human lifespan lived at the speed of light, only to vanish quickly into oblivion. Again and again, if certain cosmologies would have us believe, yet only concluding back into things of little consequence.

Gods don't buy into this shit, they want real power and effectiveness and why some people will grasp it and others, not, I still have no clue. I'm only on one side of the fence.

"There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was."

m1thr0s

03-02-2008, 12:01 PM

I met the guy who is supposed to be the only living remnant of siberian shamanism left in the world - although it was years ago and he may have passed on by now. He was interesting but he was pretty much like your crazy grandpa sort of cat whose life was wrapped up in a million and one little rituals he seemed more or less forced to attend to. It was a little disturbing to me frankly. I could not see how a person in his position would ever have the personal freedom to look at any of life's problems from a fresh perspective...so locked into pre-established views was he...and also locked into ritual behaviors that pretty well dominated his whole way of coping with reality...

m1thr0s

Naomi

03-02-2008, 12:38 PM

I don't know, I get into my own habits, so I can understand. Magically I sometimes wish I had more structure. We can't see inside someone's mind anyways, are they forced or do they get into ritual? It sounds a lot like what the Catholic Church integrated into their own priesthood. Countless rituals with no meaning. But ritual with meaning with core facts upholding the structure of mind and the understanding that it is an interface for the realm of mind, that's kind of cool.

I mean what, I get up every morning, do yoga, go for a jog, get some coffee, take a shower, not everyday but on the days I can afford, and then at night I want my fucking coffee and video game-philosophizing-artwork goodness followed by extended viewing of the p'an ku mirror.

I don't do it because i have to, I do it because it garners me benefits I've sort of locked into through years of trial and error.

Is it coping or is it just some kind of survival scheme that is more interesting than others? You now what's disturbing....9-5 jobs in the corporate world...and the whole personality type that is a perfect fit for it...

I'm very adaptable so maybe it's hard for me to imagine getting lost in ritual so much you depended on it. Some things, yes. I have some key elements of life I have to partake in daily or weekly or I just get really cranky...

m1thr0s

03-02-2008, 03:48 PM

I guess to me one delirium is about the same as the next, but you shouldn't compare his situation to yourself because it's really apples against oranges that way. This guy was locked into his phantoms just as much as any Xian fundamentalist from everything I could ascertain. I just couldn't detect even the remotest possibility that he might ever be able to comprehend anything outside his narrow perception of nature and/or reality. He was probably happy enough, for whatever that's worth, but I would not have been able to call him especially aware... To me, that's important...rituals etc in themselves don't have to be an entrapment but they very often are.

m1thr0s

Naomi

03-02-2008, 06:22 PM

you're right that doesn't sound like me, but I have to be fair. I mean can you imagine me being able to comprehend the Christian or Hindu meme fully, or even partially? To me those are completely fucked up ideas of reality, and maybe I'm wrong. For right now I'm happy with my patterns of Satanism and recently, Mutational Alchemy - I guess I don't know enough about the guy you're speaking of to even speculate properly!

I do try to be open minded though. I guess waving a magic wand or lighting candles for elaborate rituals obsessively is a lot different than the pattern of absolutely MUST having to be able to take a shower everyday...

:D